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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 12:55 PM
Original message
Worst person of the 20th Century?
Edited on Sun Aug-08-10 01:02 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
I go back and forth on this one.

Hitler is always a respectable answer. You can't go too far wrong talking about how bad Hitler was.

But I am always drawn back to Stalin. Everything Hitler did Stalin did on a larger scale. One gets into questions like is it worse to kill ten million people for their ethnicity/orientation or to kill twenty million people for their ethnicity/orientation/nationality/simple-inconvenience...

No automatic answers to that sort of thing.

And then there's Mao. I am reluctant to invoke Mao because I don't have the same level of cultural context to really get the history, on that gut level.

Hitler and Stalin. Stalin and Hitler... it all depends on how you frame the matter. (Who was a better hitter pre-steroids? Ted Williams or Babe Ruth? People who study baseball statistics go back and forth on that question because as you change tiny variables on or the other come to the fore. But everyone is pretty sure they were the top two.)

I *get* Hitler more because Germany was more like America than Russia was. Alarmingly un-alien. But is there some racism there? Is it right that I *get* Hitler more because his milieu was like mine and his victims were most like me?

God knows the worst person of the 19th century was probably a colonial force of some sort. It is said that what made Hitler stand out was that he applied the developed logic and methods of colonialism within Europe. I can see that.

Maybe Leopold II of Belgium deserves honorary mention for worst person of the 20th century... he didn't die until 1909 but the worst of what went on in the Democratic Republic of the Congo was in the 1890s.

Anyway, who is your pick for worst person of the 20th Century? (And if Hitler is too no-brainer, then who is your second choice?)
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FSogol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Tie: Ronald Reagan and the guy who invented the leaf blower
:shrug:
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. +1
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. If Hitler's a no-brainer then Reagan was second.
Third? I'd have to say Pat Robertson, the guy who invented modern televangelism.
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SoxFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. OFFS
I didn't care for Reagan's politics, but come on.

Hitler
Stalin
Pol Pot
Slobodan Milosevic
Vujadin Popović
Nikola Jorgic
Idi Amin
Saddam Hussein
Ismail Enver
Rafel Trujillo
Michel Micombero
Ian Paisley
Francisco Macías Nguema
Agusto Pinochet
Mengistu Haile Mariam
Jean-Paul Akayesu
Seishirō Itagaki
Hideki Tōjō
D.F. Malan
Ian Smith
Baby Doc
Papa Doc
Ferdinand Marcos
Kim Jong-Il
Kim Il-Sung
Jorge Rafael Videla
Radovan Karadžić
Omar al-Bashir
Charles G. Taylor

When you put Reagan ahead of these people, you look silly, uninformed, and unserious.
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brewens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. What do you come up with when you add all the dead that Hitler
was responsible for? Allied war dead, the Holocaust and German war dead. That probably blows away what Stalin did to his own people. I suppose you could add some of the Russian war dead to Stalins total because of the purges and incompetence.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. not true... Stalin wins that body count by a long shot.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. The numbers are unknowable, if you go that route.
What would have happened if Stalin hadn't signed a non-aggression treaty with Hitler? If Poland hadn't been divided up as both decided to reclaim the empires they had formerly enjoyed--German supremacy in the West and Russian control in the east of Poland? Or even if the Russians had helped beef up Polish forces rather than killing 20k of their officers and essentially disposing of the Polish army?

How about if the Sudetenland hadn't been just handed over to the Germans?

If Russian troops had poured into Germany when Poland was attacked, or when Belgium and France were attacked, or if there had just been the threat of such an attack, what would Hitler have done?

A lot of German "help" in occupied Eastern Europe had precious little to do with a love of the Nazis per se. The Germans were viewed as liberators at first, but that required the Soviets as being seen as oppressors. In many cases, killing the Jews wasn't a big deal--yes, anti-Semitic, but not something they'd have done on their own. "Ooh, the Soviets are gone--let's kill the Jews!" isn't what would have happened most of the time.



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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. That would be a bad way to compare
Edited on Sun Aug-08-10 01:21 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
Stalin killed a lot more people than Hitler however you divide it up.

First, Allied war dead, the Holocaust and German war dead wouldn't blow away what Stalin did to his own people. It would be even at best and probably a few million short. (This is worst of the 20th century so stuff Stalin did in the 1930s counts, ot just in WWII)

A thing to remember about Stalin is that he conquered as many nations (and people) as Hitler did during the same time frame. Just not nations we think about very much.

The start of WWII was the 1938 invasion of Poland. What we know today but did not know than was that Hitler and Stalin agreed to divide Poland between them. It was a dual invasion.

But Hitler was, like most RW types, a major dupe who was always getting punked by his allies. Russia decided to not claim her half until Germany did all the fighting. She feigned shock at Germany's terribleness then took her half of Poland to protect it from those terrible Germans. (re: punking. Germany told Japan it would declare war on us after Pearl Harbor if Japan declared war on Russia. Germany declared war on us and then Japan said, no... we're cool with Russia. Punked!)

Sad, sad true story... when Russia finally moved into Poland There were Polish jews fleeing west to the protection of German army because they they were more afraid of Stain than Hitler. (Stalin wasn't exactly jew friendly himself)

Anyway, there is no numerical measure of human decency measure where Stalin doesn't top Hitler. The only claim Hitler has to *special* evil is the intensity of genocide on (what was thought to be) a scientific basis. If that is an ultimate horror than Hitler wins.

Stalin was genocidal insofar as he slaughtered millions of members of particular ethic groups to get rid of them, but he didn't have the same "eliminate them to the last drop of blood" thing.
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brewens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
41. I was just thinking about the WWII years. You are correct, Stalin
did a lot more damage before and after WWII than Hitlers numbers would have equaled.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hitler, Stalin, Mao in that order..
As much as I despise Stalin, and boy do I despise him, he's a distant second to Hitler.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. just for a historical discussion... what did Hitler do worse than Stalin?
And if you're not familiar with all Stalin did... make sure to research what Stalin did pre ww2 and post ww2.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. One thing worth considering for him
Edited on Sun Aug-08-10 01:20 PM by Posteritatis
...is the fact that, really, he was just getting started. "Win the war" was one of the earlier steps in his general plan for Europe (and possibly Russia and chunks of the Near East). That has me pondering Hitler The Historical Person on the one hand and Hitler The Potential Person on the other.

The idea of a Hitler, still furher or perhaps recently retired, who died comfortably in bed in, oh, 1958? That horrifies the hell out of me and makes me glad his life and career got cut off short (if not nearly short enough).

Of course, it's up in the air whether someone should take that sort of thing into account in this sort of discussion; I can understand doing so and not doing so equally well.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. He started a war that killed well over 40 million dead.
Stalin butchered lots of people, but primarily did it in his own country. That doesn't make it any better of course.

I've always regarded Staling as an opportunist.

To me his attitude was "Let's you and him fight, and I will reap the rewards when you both are too exhausted to fight anymore."

But, if I had a time machine and could back and kill all three before they rose to power, I wouldn't hesitate for one second..
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
5. Samuel P. Bush
Edited on Sun Aug-08-10 01:12 PM by Sebastian Doyle
He began the 20th century by investing money made from Rockefeller railroad scams into the Remington Rifle company. Then he sold those rifles to both sides of World War I, and also the Russian revolution, which led to the Soviet Union - making the existence of Josef Stalin possible.

Samuel's son, Prescott Bush funded the rise of Adolf Hitler, and continued to profit from Naziism long after WWII had begun, including concentration camp slave labor.

Prescott's son George Herbert Walker Bush turned the CIA founded by his daddy's friends into the world's biggest drug dealing, terrorist funding, assassination machine. Including the creation of Al Qaeda as a weapon to use against the Soviet Union indirectly created by his grandpa. His other son, Prescott Jr. enabled China to become the dominant economic power on the planet. Great for China. Great for the Bush Crime Family. Not so much for the rest of us. Just ask any pet who died from their shitty poison food. Or dead babies who drank the melamine formula.

And well, we all remember what George's idiot son George Jr. did. Not to mention his other sons Jeb (election fraud & drug smuggling), Neil (S&L fraud, education fraud, and loves those child prostitutes in Thailand), and Marvin (ran "security" at the World Trade Center)

Over a century of crime, treason, and just plain despicable evil from these bastards. Thanks Great Grandpa Sammy Bush for making it all possible. :grr:
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. What you said.
The entire Bush Crime Family arguably created more death, destruction and suffering from worldwide war than anyone in history, even Stalin and Hitler. They would not have been enabled without their bankrolling from the Bush Crime Family.
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
48. And W's cousin,
Walker Stapleton, thinks he should be elected treasurer in Colorado.


NOT.


-
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. I don't do "worsts," "bests," "favorites," etc..
I don't rank things like one is always at the top of a list.

I will say that Hitler and Stalin were among the worst people in the 20th Century.

I'd add Ronald Reagan to that group, and I'm sure there are more that fit.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. absolutely Stalin, then Mao...
Hitler has the worst PR... the others have been rehab'd for the last 60 years. Hitler was bad, bad in an evil kinda' insane sorta way. But Stalin was worse because there was NO insanity... just a primitive mentality that lead to the deaths of TENS of millions. In fact it's fair to say that Stalin killed more Russians pre-ww2 than Hitler killed Jews during ww2.

Stalin was evil incarnate.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. Sorry, as a whole both China and Russia were better at the time of Stalin's and Mao's death
If we ignore WWII, Hitler ha ruled Germany from 1933-1938, six years of rule. During that time period, average income of the average German was down 1/3. As a whole the average German was in worse shape in 1939 then he had been in 1933. The Depression had been over for Germany by 1936, the massive spending of Germany under Hitler had kicked their economy, but income to the lower classes were the kept low and was heading to further cut.

As to Stalin and Mao, both were bastards, but if you look at Russia from 1925 and Stalin's death in 1952 and China 1949 and 1973 the improvements were immense. In the case of Russia you had collectivization (which hurt the richer peasants) but as a whole most people were better off in 1953 then they had been in 1925. Yes, it is more then the six years Hitler ruled Germany before WWII, but the trend was upward NOT downward as it had been in Germany in the 1930s. Mao had the same results, massive improvements in the country, especially the rural areas, this led to massive improvement in the urban areas (Where additional improvements were occurring).

As to people killed and exiled by all three, Hitler, Stalin and Mao, Stalin and Mao had more people leave Russia and China then left Germany under Hitler. Excluding battle deaths AND the death camps, all three killed about the same number of people (when you take into consideration the vast difference in population of the three nations). Given that Stalin and Mao wanted to do radical surgery on their country (Hitler wanted to "preserve" what existed), whenever you have such surgery, the people who will be the most directly affected by the change will oppose the change, while the people who benefited will just slowly accept the change. You see this whenever a highway is improved, the people affected by the improvements, for example homeowners whose land is taken for the improvements, Complain the most. On the other hand those people who travel will be improved by having a four lane road may say they support the change, but compared to the people HARMED, these statements will be minor in number and contents.

I give the example of the road improvement for it shows that we have to be careful on what we read about the three. A lot of people have bad things to say about all three (Hitler, Stalin and Mao), but Stalin and Mao had an additional problem is that the people who were saying the most were connected to people Stalin, Mao and other Communists were politically opposed to (i.e. the people whose land and wealth Stalin, Mao and the other Communists was taking). Hitler took almost nothing except the Labor Unions (Hitler abolished Unions and established a "state" controlled labor organization, more to control the workers then provide support for the workers).

My point is if you look at all three countries (And ignore WWII, through we have to understand Hitler was forced to start WWII for the decline in income among working class Germans was leading to social tensions within Germany, that Hitler "Resolved" by going to War), Germany was worse off, while Russian and China were better off at the end of their dictator's rule. Mao hated "Landlords" and made an effort to kill them, he did NOT go after any one group of people (Such as the Jews). Stalin wanted to stay in power, but his killings tend to be among fellow communists then anyone else (The huge death numbers sited for the Ukrainian Famine are a product of Western Newspapers, which used numbers that exceeded the population of the Ukraine of the time period, more recent calculations are much lower figures, do more to Stalin indifference then any deliberate act of Stalin to kill off the Ukrainians). No one disputes that a Famine occurred, the issue is the extent and what Stalin did to make it worse. The record does NOT support any claim Stalin DELIBERATELY ordered the Ukraine starved. The record does show Stalin having high priorities then feeding the people who were staving in the Ukraine.

I do not want to play down the the crimes of Stalin and Mao, but now that we have access to the actual records of the Former Soviet Union we have a better idea of the extent of the Crimes of Stalin and Mao, and once you look at those records, Hitler comes out of top do to his actions to reduce the income of the People of Germany AND his attacks on the Jews. Mao and Stalin did many crimes, but as a whole living standards were up in China and Russia at the death of Mao and Stalin, both China and Russia were, as a whole, better off at the death of Mao and Stalin, and the number of people killed was high for both Stalin and Mao but no where near as high as under Hitler.
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GSLevel9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. excellent post... but
Edited on Sun Aug-08-10 05:06 PM by GSLevel9
if you judge the leader by the state of his nation...

what if... Hitler invades Poland, Czechloslovakia, France... rules all of Europe, Great Britain surrenders in 1940, Imperial Japan never get's the promise of assistance from Germany in 1941, Japan never attacks Pearl and Hitler invades Russia with ALL his forces, not just the Eastern Front half...

Germany captures Moscow the first Winter... war over. FDR would not have declared war on behalf of Russia in 1940...

Hitler dies in the 1950's and the German Reich is an economic powerhouse and a world super power....

The ending for the German Reich is good... does that make Hitler any better?
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. Russia stopped the Germans in December 1941
Edited on Mon Aug-09-10 12:47 AM by happyslug
The amount of support Russia was getting from the West during that six months was minimal, yet Russia stops the Germans.

At that point, unless Germany obtained oil from the Mid-East (Britain would have had to agree) or the US (FDR would have had to agree), Germany in 1942 would be facing the same situation it had in real life. No fuel for any real operations, Stalingrad was attacked for it was the only area in Russia that Germany could attack. The Russians had more then enough troops between the German Forces in Russia and Moscow, and the Tank Factories that had been moved in the fall of 1941 were now in secure positions East of the Ural Mountains.

Stalin had planned on a war with Germany in 1942 NOT 1941. Thus he was unprepared for the June 1941 attack. Stalin refused to permit any of troops to retreat in 1941, thus ensuring their capture. In 1942 Stalin was NOT making that mistake, when the Germans headed for Stalingrad, Russians forces retreated rather then be captured. The "Goal" was NOT Stalingrad but the oil fields in the Caspian sea area. German forces never reached it. One of the reason is the lack of fuel.

As to what the US and Britain was doing in 1941 and 1942 that had any affect on the German War Effort (The air attacks on Germany from Britain was actually helping the Germans. The German people did NOT like to move, they wanted to stay in the same neighborhood their grew up in. The newer factories were in the Suburbs and the workers just refused to move to the new work sites, they stayed in their old neighborhoods. The bombing forced them to leave their old neighborhoods to the new homes and jobs in the Suburbs. Thus in the after war analysis of the Allied Bombing campaign, it was viewed as a failure. The successes were less then the results of the Germans moving to the Suburbs were the new factories were located. These Factories were disbursed and thus impossible to hit with night attacks (Favored by the British) and even difficult to hit in daylight air Attacks (Which the Americans Favored).

As to land warfare, Hitler had taken the Balkans in the Spring of 1941. He had minimal troops in Western Europe, the French were NOT yet into any Resistance movement. The first real Resistance movement came out of Yugoslavia and that was the result of the Germans having to release the whole Yugoslavian army after the Germans took Yugoslavia and Greece in the Spring of 1941 (And the German Troops were scheduled to be part of the German Invasion force into Russia so had to leave the Balkans almost as soon as the Germans Took it).

Rommel was running around in North Africa but with only two German Divisions (And one of these, the 5th "Light" Division was something formed out of various previously unattached army units), the rest of his forces were Italians (The Italian troops had a good reputation in the first part of the war, the Italian army Leadership were incompetent, but the troops were good and did while under Rommel).

Thus Germany had minimum troops located outside the Russian Front in 1941. Germany sent into Russia 154 Divisions (For comparison the US army only fielded 90 and the US Marines 10 for a total of 100 Divisions TOTAL). During the 1940 Attack on France, Germany only had a total of 157. This 157 Divisions does NOT count SS or Luftwaffe divisions (Both did not exist in 1940, but came into existence as WWII went on). In addition to the Two Divisions under Rommel, one more division was occupying Norway (Through a German Division marched through Sweden from Norway to Finland as part of Operation Barbarossa, this was done with Swedish permission). Some divisions were kept in the Balkans (including Greece and Crete) and France, but since no one was doing any real partisan fighting at the time in any of these countries, German troops were kept to a Minimum (Italian Troops were used to occupy most of the Balkans and Greece for Example).

The actual force made it the largest invasion force in History "Over 4.5 million troops of the Axis powers invaded the USSR along a 2,900 km (1,800 mi) front. In addition to the large number of troops, it also involved 600,000 motor vehicles and 750,000 horses."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#cite_ref-11

Compared that to Desert Storm either the largest or second largest single military action in History.
"The Coalition committed 540,000 troops, and a further 100,000 Turkish troops were deployed along the Turkish-Iraqi border. This caused a significant force dilution of the Iraqi military by forcing it to deploy its forces along all its borders. This allowed the main thrust by the U.S. to possess not only a significant technological advantage, but also a numerical superiority."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War

Desert Storm is either the largest single action or the second largest. Operation Michael (The German 1918 Spring Offensive) is the other contender for that title. The debate is comparing a WWI army with a 1990 Army and thus which was the "larger" attack. Desert Storm had way more Aircraft and tanks then Operation Michael, but Michael had a lot more men, thus the debate which one was larger. More a academic debate but it is the contender for the title of single largest Military operations:

The attacking armies were spread along a 43 mile front between Arras, St. Quentin and La Fère. Ludendorff had assembled a force of 74 Divisions, 6600 artillery pieces, 3500 mortars and 326 fighter aircraft.... The average strength of a German Division in 1918 stood at 12,300 men, 3000 horses, 48 artillery pieces, 120 mortars, 78 heavy machine guns, 144 light machine guns, and 6–12 trucks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Michael

My point is to show how powerful Operation Barbarossa was. Operation Barbarossa consisted of three attacks, all smaller then Operation Michael of 20 years before (and smaller then the Allied attack in Desert Storm) but when you view all three attacks together larger. It was a massive operation. The number of German Divisions NOT involved is less then a dozen. Britain was NOT capable of landing any sizable number of troops in the 1941-1943 period and almost all of the British troops were in Egypt, Iraq, India or the Far East. With the failure to gain air superiority over Britain a German invasion of Britain was Impossible so Britain was sending its troops where they could do some good (The US sent to Britain the 29th Division in 1942, more to show US support for Britain then any real Military purpose, the regimental joke was the 29th Division and the British Home Guard were the only land forces in Britain to stop any German invasion).

If you look at the 154 German Division in 1939 (More Divisions would be formed, but German Practice was NOT to send replacements to existing divisions, but to raise whole new division with cadre made up of older divisions that were broken up).

For more on the Afrika Korp:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrika_Korps

The Invasion of Russia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

The Battle of France:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France

Sorry, the whole premise is based on Hitler having access to oil. Before his invasion of Russian his main source of oil was Russia. The invasion cut off that supply. Hitler had six months to take Russia and if he failed, the Russians would slowly wear German Down (Which is what the Russian did after 1941). The only way Germany could have stopped the Russian onslaught was with tanks and mobile infantry, but to use either effectively you needed access to oil. During 1942 a German Infantry Division had to use 10% of what it used during peace time. This was to provide oil to the Armor Units and the Air Force. Civilians were even further down the priority list for fuel. As the war progressed Germany use of Horse increased (causing horse shortages throughout Europe for Horse died like flies in Russia). Soviet Forces actually decreased their use of horses as the war went on. Horses were still the main means of supplies to troops on the line, but only from a supply point where trucks would haul the supplies from the nearest rail head (a lot of these trucks were American made, but Russia was making just under half of the trucks they were using).

Given Stalin's disposition and nature, once he had the German army on the rope he would have drove home his army. Slowly the Russian Army would have destroyed the German Army. Victory may have had to wait till 1946, but it would have been Stalin's UNLESS HITLER OBTAIN A SOURCE OF OIL. At that point of History, Hitler could get his oil from the #1 oil exporter of that time period (The US), or the then new fields in the Middle East (Controlled by Britain), the Dutch East Indies (Under US influence or Japanese control) or Russia (The North Sea was NOT drill-able at that time period, not found to be a good oil field till the 1960s).

Without Oil Germany under Hitler was dead. Thus the question is NOT that Britain would have signed a peace treaty with Hitler in late 1940 or early 1941 (There is some evidence that such a peace treaty was being discussed but FDR killed it by telling Churchill if a peace treaty was signed FDR would cut off all aid. That threat about a peace treaty between Germany and Britain would have been enough to kill that peace treaty. Churchill would have viewed such a peace treaty as a truce and the situation between Germany and Britain would have become a "Cold War" and in such a situation Britain needed American Aid. Thus any talk of a peace treaty died by the spring of 1941 (The Bismark being sent out to sea in May 1941 may have been a way of Hitler telling Britain. Germany know British greatest weakness, all we have to do is get one battleship in a convey and you will be destroyed). Britain needed raw material and food from the US to survive and if the Convoy system was destroyed, Britain would have had to surrender.

My point is Germany needed oil once Germany invaded Russia. Would FDR permit Britain to supply the oil? I do not think so even if Britain signed a peace treaty with Germany. Without oil Germany would lose to Russia sooner or later and thus we would have ended up in the Post WWII situation sooner or later. The only way out of that situation would have been had Hitler NOT invaded Russia. Hitler would have had access to oil and thus in a strong position. If Russia even cut Germany off, Hitler could have pulled the Communist Card into the US and ask FDR to supply him the oil. If Britain could object but given the Anti-Communist tendency in the US, FDR would have shipped the oil and Britain would have signed a peace treaty to leave it flow by. FDR would only have shipped enough oil to keep the Germany Army strong enough to stop any Russian invasion thus no post war prosperity and sooner or later Hitler would have died and with his death Nazism would have died out.

And here is a thought, what if Stalin had attacked first? The theory is that the reasons the Germans were so successful in 1941 was they had attacked a Soviet Army geared to ATTACK the Germans NOT Geared for any defensive action. In simple terms, had the Soviets Attack the Germans something like what happened to the Russian would have happened to the Germans. Furthermore Soviet Armor was better then the Germans (Through HOW to use such army was inferior and most Russian Army was older then the excellent T-34) and the Soviet Union had more planes (Through at that time period inferior to the Germans, but the Russian RAT, while inferior, had out fought the ME-109 in Spain just a few years before, through the RAT was at the end of its development life, while the ME 109 was at the start of its development life).

Could the Germany Army stop such an attack if Stalin had hit first? A good question for one of the reasons Stalin was able to survive was the huge distance between what is now Poland and Moscow. Berlin was and is closer WITH better roads between Berlin and the Border and Moscow and that border.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_Missed_Chance
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tedder10 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. I was thinking the guy who invented robocalls
but that certainly doesn't cover the list. I think an easier list would be for the worst person in the
21 century and a certain buffoon from texas would win that one.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. Before even opening the thread I thought of th same two: Hitler and Stalin.
Two monsters who directly, and indirectly, caused the death of millions of people. May they both rot in hell!!!

x(
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. Chuck Nevitt
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
13. I waffle between those two depending on my mood half the time
Edited on Sun Aug-08-10 01:14 PM by Posteritatis
With the same caveat as you that I don't have the background to make that educated a decision on Mao, so he's more off my mental radar than he should be. I need to fix that at some point, though I've mainly been working on fixing my US history gaps lately.

I'm not comfortable using body count as the sole metric of that sort of thing - not because I don't think that's important, but because I worry about the results of boiling people down to numbers or points. Even though that's a rational thing to do at times, I don't have to like it.

Some of my evaluation goes into counterfactual territory, which obviously isn't something one can use as Objective Proof in either direction. To take Hitler and Stalin as examples, I find myself wondering how much worse things might (well, let's be honest, would) have gotten had the former won the war. For Stalin pondering, Stalin drove the Soviet Union pretty far into the ground between the Holodomor, the Red Army purges and god only knows how many other things - if someone else was in charge after Lenin wouldn't the country have been much better off, more intact, better able to resist a German attack or even discourage one entirely in the first place?

I don't know, and don't pretend to have the ability to figure that sort of thing out. Suffice it to say they were both pretty vile, though; if I absolutely have to pick just one I'd try to loophole a tie out of it.

Leopold II was pretty fucking evil, though. When other European colonial powers are horrified at how you're acting? Yeah.

I absolutely don't qualify anyone in the US for the top of any such list, though.
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. Barbara Bush for producing evil offspring.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. No, you have to go back further than that
Back to at least Prescott Sheldon Bush.
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AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Yeah his wife should have kept her legs together too.
The entire Bush clan is evil and corrupt. Too bad abortion couldn't be retroactive through several generations.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Nah, at least one generation before him.
See my post on Samuel P. Bush above.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Stalin gets top billing, just for the body count. n/t
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. The body count is not really settled.
If one includes the great famine of the 30's you get into the 10-15,000,000 range. The 60M figures end up including everyone who died in WWII fighting the nazis, which is dishonest.

Without distorting the count Hitler is clearly the winner by body count alone. However there is a huge difference between the two. The nazi program was explicitly genocidal and was cut short, really at it's beginnings. The program intended to eliminate not only jews, gypsies socialists and deviants, but also the enslavement and elimination of much of the population of eastern europe to make room for a greater germany. Stalin lived to a ripe old age and died peacefully after 30 years in power. He carried out all of his programs to their conclusion. Hitler barely got started.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. At some point, it ceases to matter.
"One death is a tragedy. A million is a statistic."

Suffice to say that Hitler and Stalin both killed millions and were utter monsters.
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Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
22. Gavrilo Princip ( n/t )
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. He certainly made a disproportionate splash, didn't he? (nt)
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. There you go, without his actions, possibly no World War I, which led to the rise of Lenin, Stalin
Edited on Sun Aug-08-10 02:03 PM by Uncle Joe
and Hitler, not to mention the War with Vietnam as the U.S. dissed independence for that nation in favor of France during the Treaty of Versailles.

Ho Chi Minh was a great admirer of the U.S. during those days and claimed to have wanted democracy for his country, but the U.S. sided with France; to retain Vietnam as a colony.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
23. Dick Cheney
deserves to have his name brought up for an honorable mention at least.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. +1
:thumbsup:
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
26. Pol Pot's gotta be on that list
He didn't kill as many as some, but he killed a higher percentage of his population. In a nation of about 7.5 million, he was responsible for the deaths of ~1.7 million.

I'd also nominate the architects of British and French colonial policies for a special position of dishonor. Because of what they started in the 19th century and continued through much of the 20th centuries, much of Africa and Asia still hasn't recovered.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. His name would be high on my list also
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Unruly Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
27. One does not need . . .
. . . a cultural context to judge it as genocide.


"And then there's Mao. I am reluctant to invoke Mao because I don't have the same level of cultural context to really get the history, on that gut level."

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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #27
49. I think you do though.
Mao killed a lot of people, not through genocide (the desire to wipe out an entire race of people) but through blind ideology and incompetence.

His policies during the Great Leap Forward created a massive famine that killed as many as 20 million people but it wasn't a deliberate policy to kill people. It was just incompetent management. Mao decided that what China really needed was steel. So he took all the farmers and told them to collect steel. Then they had a drought + fewer farmers + sudden collectivisation = famine + 20 million starving people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_leap_forward

Likewise, the Cultural Revolution was based on the crackpot idea that everyone should idolize "peasant virtues"... that farmers could be doctors and judges and that academics should work in fields to be instilled with proper working class ideology. This was a profoundly stupid idea that lead to a lot of suffering and death (and destruction of priceless cultural antiquities) but it wasn't a deliberate campaign to exterminate people based on their ethnicity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

So having said that, I would rank the big three as:

1.) Hitler: simply evil, killed people because of the way they were born
2.) Stalin: corrupt, paranoid and power-mad; incompetent policy led to mass famine and environmental devastation; mass detention in gulags
3.) Mao: catastrophically incompetent; slightly paranoid

Stalin and Mao were assholes, sure, but to me there is a categorical distinction between signing a piece of paper that you know is going to send six million people to their deaths because of the way they were born, and just being a blindly ideological idiot being spoon-fed only what you want to hear by equally blindly idiot lackies.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
32. Bill Buckner.
Slow roller right between his legs. Jesus.

j/k

I don't know as much about Stalin as I do Hitler, so I have to go with Hitler. Stalin may have a higher bodycount, but IIRC his reasoning was politics. Hitler was pure hate, and that hate lives on today through his teachings and ideology that he left behind.

Cheney/Rove/BushJr would be high on this list as well.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
34. Stalin was more of a passive murderer
and most of those millions died as a result of ruthless collectivization and the simple bad luck of rotten weather and poor harvests. It was a disaster taking people off their own land to work for the glory of the worker's state on a collective farm, never really seeing the fruits of their labor except in abstract yield terms, well done, now bugger off.

Hitler, on the other hand, set up an industrialized killing machine in the name of perfecting the human race via eugenics. Anyone he didn't approve of was simply fed into the machine and disposed of.

I would resent being slaughtered by either method, but I find slaughtering by intent just a little more reprehensible than slaughtering through hamfisted bungling in applying untested dogma.
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red red red Donating Member (166 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
36. Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ales
are close seconds to me. They are buying up the media here and in the UK and passing their poison along by hiring nutjobs like Beck, O'Reilly, etc. and don't forget Limbaugh, Palin, and the list goes on. I honestly believe that if he could buy 'the internet' he would and limit what we could see as well. He's doing this, knowing what happened in the past when Media was denied freedom! Do I think he's an evil person - yes, I do. JMO
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HEFFA Donating Member (414 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
37. Rupert Murdoch
The man is to reality and truth what Hitler was for German national pride.

While Hitler's body count is obviously much higher, how can you put a number or value of any kind on the distortion of reality and the constant manipulation of truth? How much harm has been done to our society (and others) because of Murdoch?
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HEFFA Donating Member (414 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. ^^ Delete.
Strange that the same point was made by someone else at nearly the same time. Withdrawn.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
40. Los del Río
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
42. I'm with you. It's hard to say between Hitler & Stalin. Coming from a Jewish family, I'm inclined to
say Hitler, but it's certainly arguable that Stalin was worse from a sheer numbers perspective.

It's a sad thing to think about. Who was the BEST person of the 20th century? I'd probably rather exercise my brain on that one.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-08-10 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
43.  Don't forget Hideki Tojo n/t
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. Seconded.
Japanese atrocities in China, Southeast Asia and the Pacific during WWII are woefully under-taught and under-discussed in the US. They equal and in many way exceed the genocide that was going on in Europe at the same time.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-10 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
51. Hitler - but there are some very close runners-up
E.g. Stalin as you say, and Pol Pot who may not have murdered as *many* people, but murdered a high *proportion* of the people over whom he had power. More recently, the butchers of Rwanda, and other leaders who tore their countries apart and caused much death and suffering.

Hitler comes ahead of the others, as (a) most murderous dictators have had some twisted selfish political reasons for their butchery, while Hitler attempted to exterminate Jews, Roma and gays just for the sake of exterminating them; (b) Hitler et al systematically planned and used the 'best' efficient high-tech methods of murder - somehow this seems particularly premeditatedly evil.

I admit however that the victims of the various dictators all ended up equally dead.

Isn't it sad that there are so many contenders for such an 'award'?

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