Proof the Turks using chemical weapons against the PKK.

[bushmeister0]

Der Spiegel:

"German experts have confirmed the authenticity of photographs that purport to show PKK fighters killed by chemical weapons. The evidence puts increasing pressure on the Turkish government, which has long been suspected of using such weapons against Kurdish rebels. German politicians are demanding an investigation...

'The prime minister is not interested in human rights violations,' says Akin Birdal, a member of the Turkish parliament whose pro-Kurdish BDP opposition party has repeatedly questioned in parliament if Erdogan's war in the southeast of the country is really being conducted legally. In Birdal's view, the only thing that matters to Erdogan is that the army eradicates the PKK problem once and for all 'by any means necessary.'"

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,711536,00.html

Hey, it worked for Saddam.

[kenny blankenship]

1. They gassed their own people with WMDs! When does the Shock & Awe begin?

[aquart]

2. Ah, the Turks.

[happyslug]

3. What do the Germans want, a Military coup?

I asked that question for the simple reason the main opposition to the present elected government of Turkey is the Military. The Turkish Military has a long history of over throwing Civilian Governments it find hostile to its interests (One of which is the Military civilian allies control over much of the economy, an economy hostile to worker's rights, thus 40 years ago the Military main enemy was the Communists who wanted to end that control, now it is the Turkish religious groups, who have replaced the Communists as the main protectors AND way the poor and working class can organized, thus the attack on the "Radical Moslem's" running the Government and how they are ruining the country by bring inflation down, more support for the working class and the poor and an overall improved economy, much better then the Government the Turkish military Generals prefers to this day).

Yes, the Government is considered pro-Islamic but it has done a better job of running the economy then any other government over the last 50 years. The recent break with Israel over the attack on the Turkish relief ships has not made the Government in Turkey more stable (The Turkish Military Leadership opposed the relief expedition, but the people of Turkey supported the expedition). The Turkish Military leadership has a problem, it dislikes the elected Government, but needs the economic growth only it has been able to produce. Furthermore, while the officer corp is loyal to the Generals, that can NOT be said of the enlisted ranks (Which tend to support the Government).

As to the use of Gas, if true (I have to use that condition) why? Gas is most effective against people without access to Gas Masks. If people have access to gas masks (even of questionable usability) conventional high explosives are more effective. The ideal situation for gas warfare is when the people you want to gas are dug in. It is hard to hit every dug out in such situation, but gas can seep into such dug outs, killing the unmasked people inside. The best defense against this is having a air vent coming from some safe location and blow air into the dug out via the vent and then out of the dug out via any other hole. This keeps the gas out. It makes digging a dug out more complex, but if done correctly ends any advantage of using gas.

Side note: The PKK does do ambushes, but does NOT Defend territory in Turkey, thus any dug outs are for temporary use only, by the time any gas can be used, the PKK troops are long gone. PKK hit and then abandoned the area. Dugouts are avoided for that implies trying to hold onto some land, which the PKK is to weak to do so right now.

The PKK, is NOT that unfunded, it can obtain gas masks if needed. Thus the use of gas will be of a temporary advantage at best to the Turks (And thus should be kept in reserve to be reserve at a time when it is most advantageous to the Turks). On the other hand if you want to end support for the PKK by the native population, killing that population off with gas is a quick way to do end such support (Notice, in such cases it is gassing of Civilians that is effective, troops have access to gas masks but most Civilians do NOT).

The problem with the gas attacks being against the Civilian population is the lack of deaths among the Turkish Civilian Kurds. A handful is more an operation against troops then Civilians.

My problem with this report is I see no MILITARY justification for using gas in Turkey against the PKK. Gas is most effective against dug in soldiers NOT guerrillas. When a Guerrilla smell gas (or notice shells going off around them, either high explosive or gas shells) the Guerrillas quickly leave the area. Guerrillas avoid areas where the enemy is strong, they go where he is weak. You have to undermined the support the Guerrillas have in the civilian population OR killed them at small unit level (Platoon or smaller). Small unit actions is the work of Rifles, Machine Guns and Mortars NOT anything heavier (and you need heaver units to get the concentration needed for effective use of gas). Killing civilians with gas is not that effective for you end up killing both supporters, opponents and neutrals to such Guerrillas. Thus you undermine support by providing them many of the items the Guerrillas claim they are fighting for (In rural areas it is often land, in other areas basically support to people who the people believe represents them. This is often difficult for most times that is the Guerrillas. Thus some sort of negotiated settlement has to be made, often an agreement that hurts the side opposing the Guerrillas. For example that appears what happened in Iraq, the US gave the Sunni control over their own area of Iraq AND a ton of money to end their Guerrilla action. It appears to be what the US plans to do in Afghanistan, talk to the Taliban, work out a deal that some how "excludes" the Taliban, as far as the News is concern, but put the Taliban back in control (Probably under some new name like "Afghans for Afghanistan" instead of the Taliban.

Thus my problem, gas is good against hostile civilian populations, but not that effective against guerrillas. While it is possible for the Turks to be using gas, and some troops will use it just because they have it, but as a general rule gas is NOT used on Guerrillas. It is NOT that effective given the concentration needed AND the lack of concentration of most Guerrilla operations. Thus my comment, do they want to get the Turkish Government to accuse the Turkish Army of using gas, and the Turkish Army taking that as an insult overthrows the Turkish Government? I am sorry, something about this sorry is NOT what it says it is.