I've Worked at Schools on Both Sides Now: Rich and Poor

[LWolf]

By Anthony Cody on August 11, 2010

A Washington State teacher speaks out about judging teachers by student test scores. She describes and compares the two schools she's worked in and concludes:

It is because of the two scenarios that I just outlined that I do not believe in tying teacher evaluation to test scores, or merit pay. I was the same teacher last year at White Bluffs that I was the year before at Clear Creek. Both schools even use many of the same curriculum materials, Houghton Mifflin reading, Lucy Calkins writing, and STC science. At White Bluffs and Clear Creek, my teaching partners and I also utilized many of the same teaching and learning strategies; Mosaic of Thought, guided reading, reader's/writer's workshop, district writing prompts, and hands on science. Both districts also have early release days each week for professional learning communities, professional development, educational literature studies, and curriculum planning and development. Both schools also have a clear system in place for identifying and working with students with special needs. At both schools my teaching partners and I communicated with parents on a regular basis, participated in school related activities outside of the workday and brought our students closer to their community through guest speakers and field trips. I worked just as hard at Clear Creek as I did White Bluffs, so why was I under performing at Clear Creek and high performing at White Bluffs? The only answer I can come up with is the fact that both schools serve two very different communities and the students who come to each school bring very different background experiences, beliefs, and concerns.

Again, I am the same teacher at White Bluffs that I was a Clear Creek. How I build relationships with my students and their families and teach has not changed. However, the scores that my students receive on their tests have. Lately a lot of people have placed the majority of the blame for low test scores on the teachers. These same people seem to believe that if we just fire the "bad" teachers and replace them with "good" teachers, all of our problems will be solved. My question is how do we decide who is a "good" teacher and who is a "bad" teacher? I certainly hope it is not test scores, because if that is the measure we use then I should have been fired years ago at Clear Creek and I would have never been able to demonstrate what a good teacher I am at White Bluffs.

http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/living-in-dialogue/2010/08/ive_worked_at_schools_on_both.html

[dmallind]

1. The point is clear, but disingenuous

Teacher ratings and merit decisions need not, heck should not, be based on attainment.

They could, and should however, be based on CHANGES in attainment.

A teacher who takes a class from 40% grade level attainment to 60% is better than one who gets a class at 61 and leaves them at 63. Since it becomes more and more difficult to increase attainment at higher levels, the only valid measure should be based on improvement as a ratio to demonstrated improvement from similar baselines, So we can easily see whether a teacher who takes a class from 95 to 105% of expected attainment is better or worse than one who takes a class from 85 to 97%, by seeing where each falss when measured in comparison to those who started in the same spot.

I am sure arguments agsint this exist, but beyond nitpicking I have never seen a good one. Teachers want to be, and should be, seen as valuable professionals. Other such professionals are expected to demonstrate and validate their value on a relative scale.

[Curmudgeoness]

3. Not true. First, most professionals do not have to validate their

"value" on a relative scale. Doctors are valued by how much money they bring to the hospitals, accountants are valued by how much money they bring to the firm, as are lawyers. Get the picture? Not exactly going to fit into the teacher's job.

Secondly, most professionals are allowed to be professionals and make decisions on how they conduct their jobs---since they are the ones who are professionals. Teachers are dictated to from all directions---which textbooks to use, teaching to the tests because their testing is not valued, state beaurocrats who wouldn't know what to do in a classroom telling them how to do their jobs, local school boards full of the "popular" citizens in town and people who are their so their kid can get hired when they graduate.

Professionals should be treated as such. And teachers are not.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. Actually most are in mid to large organizations

In larger organizations people are normally rated relative to their peers and by salary. It is a critical part of the review systems.

[onpatrol98]

73. So true...

My husband teaches in K-12 and his principal has made it clear that he'll suspend teachers if he catches them with a cell phone.

----------------------------------
Although, I understand wanting your educational staff focused on academia...why not just fire the bad actors and treat the remaining staff like professionals. I'm think the whole cell phone meme is because of some younger Teach For America teachers that were a bit attached to their cell phones last year. But, even in those cases, it was during class time.

Surely, a professional, knows the primary purpose of having a phone accessible and would only use it under those circumstances. But, rather than address the guilty parties directly, the new mandate says "literally", the same penalty for students will apply to teachers.

[LWolf]

6. While a growth model is obviously more connected to

teachers than a straight year-to-year comparison, there are other factors involved there, too.

Some states are beginning to move towards growth models. Not all.

Your example doesn't note that the farther you get towards the top end of a bell curve, the harder it is to make gains, other factors being equal.

It also doesn't acknowledge the ambiguity in the term "grade level attainment." I'm assuming you mean some particular benchmark, cut-off, or score that is universally acknowledged as "grade level?" That doesn't address the reality that students can meet a benchmark in some areas, exceed in some, and not meet in others. Determining "grade level" can be problematic, and applying formulas to determine "grade level" does not always indicate what students are really able to do.

It also doesn't acknowledge this simple fact: Not all people learn the same way, or at the same rate. Teachers are presented with human beings, not parts on an assembly line that can be standardized. Class demographics will make a huge difference in growth.

While some districts and schools make a conscious effort to balance classes, not all do. There are as many ways to group students as there are people doing the grouping. Obviously, a class that has 10% special ed students will make better average growth than a class that has 20%. A class that has no, or few, ELL students will make more growth than a class with a large ELL population. The difference in growth rates, unless you can claim to have perfectly balanced the classes by gender, age, health issues, ses, culture, language, home life, and IEPs and 504s, cannot, with integrity, be attached to teachers.

Those of us on the ground in schools know this quite well. We also know that attaching pay to test scores, whether it be AYP gains or a growth model, opens the door for political manipulation of rosters. Some teachers can be favored with a roster that is more likely to make better growth than others.

And, in those conditions, what teachers will want to take on those students hardest to teach, who will make less growth than their more advantaged peers, when their professional competence will be judged AND it will affect their rate of pay?

[wcast]

67. Great Post!!

Many, as the first response shows, want to pretend that we are manufacturing widgets, that it is possible for all children to learn at the same pace, same development level, and attain the level of achievement. There is a bell curve for a reason!! Otherwise we would all be the proverbial "rocket scientist".

[salin]

97. Excellent points - esp the last...

our bright Sec of Ed in my state proposed going a step further, and judging schools of ed based on the 'growth ratings' of their graduates. While a part of me finds the whole turn in onto the schools of ed a bit funny (in an ironic way) - as a policy it is dysfunctional. No school of ed would want their grads to teach anywhere but in high ses areas.

btw, last week I lost connection just after I read your response; I really appreciated the thoughtfulness. Sorry I missed the chance to post then and there.

[MichiganVote]

34. Your rationale assumes that all of the students are comparable. Hardly likely.

[rucky]

61. I think the point is that there are factors outside the classroom...

that need to be addressed before a child is "ready to learn". The problem and solution don't exist exclusively in the classroom.

[Go2Peace]

77. This all leaves out other factors that teachers have no control over

People expect teachers to be miracle workers.

The way to hire and fire people is to have and use proper discipline. Get good administration and keep on top of it.

We are going about this completely without using our wisdom or intellect. Companies use this tactic to. It is all part of the compassion deficit society we are now building. All it is doing is sending us into the gutters as a nation.

[JDPriestly]

101. What about a teacher who takes a class at 89% and leaves them at 90%?

It's very difficult to find a class that would average that high, it would seem to me. But, if you could, would increasing the scores by 1% help you to rank the teacher whose class started out scoring much better than average in the first place as a far better teacher than a teacher whose class started at 32% and only increased the score to 33%?

And then what about a teacher who takes a class at 89% and leaves them at 87%?

Should that teacher be ranked higher than a teacher who takes a class at 32% and leaves them at 30%?

You may be able to spot a teacher who is not doing an adequate job if the test scores in his classes over several years consistently drop by say 10%. But is it worth wasting the money and time on testing (and annual testing costs a lot of both money and time) to identify those rare teachers whose classes will consistently over several years lose about 10% in terms of objective test scores.

You cannot ask teachers to invest years of their lives and take on sizable student loan debts to find out a few years in that all their effort to become a teacher was a waste of time because their students' scores on standardized tests decreased during the school year for just a couple of years.

[Curmudgeoness]

2. As one with a degree in education, I can relate. Never understood

why teachers are always the ones to blame. I tell everyone who blames teachers that I challenge them to go and teach for one month. Just one month of your life will change your attitude. It is an impossible task with nothing but greive. This article is excellent. She IS the same teacher.

[LWolf]

9. Propaganda has been so effective that most don't hear, can't see,

and won't acknowledge that there are underlying causes of poor performance that have nothing to do with teachers.

[Curmudgeoness]

10. Teachers are the easy scapegoats. Parents don't want to think

that it is their fault. Administration doesn't want to get the blame. Of course it is not the school board. So who is the one to blame---there has to be someone.

[LWolf]

12. Politicians who don't want to fund a superb system, or

enable professional educators to make that system superb.

[sandnsea]

14. Parents Move

Parents see child excel after move.

It's that simple.

[Curmudgeoness]

17. I am not saying there are not bad teachers. But when they move

to a school with peer pressure toward getting into college instead of into gangs, that could answer some questions in their minds. Or it could be the way the old school was run. Or maybe the new school has more money for more resources for the child. There are lots of reasons for a change. What I am saying is that it is not always the teacher who is to blame. But sometimes, yes, it is.

[sandnsea]

20. Nobody is saying it's always the teacher

In fact, it's more likely to be the principal which is why every model includes getting rid of them.

Your post is the point exactly. There are lots of reasons schools fail. There are also lots of models of taking failing students and putting them in a different environment and turning everything around. There is absolutely no reason not to try, and keep trying until you get a program that works for the given school.

I've seen the migrant school be the best school in some cities, so you can't tell me it's always money and student background.

[LWolf]

25. Kids move, and suddenly the class dynamics, and averages, change.

Student turnover is another factor that affects teachers' and schools' statistics that we do not control.

[sandnsea]

4. That's why entire programs are being replaced

Or sometimes principals and programs.

In this school, maybe the problem is the curriculum isn't targeted at the student. Maybe the ELL program isn't satisfactory. Maybe military kids need writing modeled more, because they aren't familiar with expressing themselves at all. Maybe the principal is worn out, blames the parents, and doesn't do anything to fix what can be fixed.

Who knows. That's the reason you bring in a turnaround model.

[depakid]

5. This sort of wholesale fire all the teachers etc. was the thing that finally made me realize

that Obama wasn't really all that bright a fellow. That and his behavior prior to the oil spill.

You don't go in and throw out years of relationships or programs that work along with those that don't thinking that wholesale "new programs" will replace them with better results.

Indeed, that's the epitome of poor management practice- something that Obama obviously has no experience with- and apparently hasn't studied or read much about.

[LWolf]

8. "Poor management practice."

An understatement, to be sure.

You don't need to fire everyone to try different materials or methods. You just have to have permission AND FUNDING to do so.

[sandnsea]

13. They don't have to fire ANY teachers

I don't know why all of you keep pretending that's the only option available for failing schools.

[LWolf]

15. No. They can fire admins instead.

Or they can close the school and reopen as a charter.

Or they can close the school and scatter students to other schools.

Every option includes, among other things, either the firing of teachers and/or admins, or the closing of schools.

http://www.ed.gov/blog/2010/03/whats-possible-turning-around-americas-lowest-achieving-schools/

[sandnsea]

21. Yes. Doing something DIFFERENT

That's the point. And that DIFFERENT thing does not always mean firing all the teachers.

Nobody is blaming teachers, who the hell are they going to hire, except for teachers?

[LWolf]

23. Temps. TFA. new, untested, and cheap teachers. nt

[sandnsea]

26. Even though a goal is highly qualified in subject area

Including increasing masters degrees.

None of these arguments make any sense if you look at them objectively.

[LWolf]

29. We don't have to "turn around" schools to achieve that.

It's already a required part of the system.

For example, I am licensed to teach K-8 multiple subjects.

I'm also highly qualified to teach secondary language arts and social studies.

Our district does regular evaluations to make sure that teachers are both licensed by the state and highly qualified under NCLB for the subjects they are teaching.

On-going post-grad education is a requirement in order to renew a license.

You are correct. Trying to defend the turnaround model with these arguments doesn't make any sense.

[sandnsea]

31. And those teachers might choose an under-performing school

Especially if there's increased pay for going to one.

If your school isn't under-performing, then they won't do anything with your school. If it is, they may keep all the masters degree teachers. As has been said repeatedly, there are a lot of options.

All of you just keep pretending that all they're doing is firing teachers and it's just not true.

[YvonneCa]

39. This is exactly the disconnect...

...that some here don't understand. You said, "If your school isn't under-performing,then they won't do anything with your school. If it is, they may keep all the masters degree teachers. As has been said repeatedly, there are a lot of options..."

Did you read the Edweek post in the OP? That teacher writes of ONE example...herself...of a teacher who won't be bothered because her second school was high performing. If she had stayed at the under-performing school(Clear Creek), she would have been bothered. Same teacher---same performance---same qualifications. VERY unfair.

This "...they may keep all the masters degree teachers" is just naive. I'm sorry. I am a Master's Degree teacher and highly qualified...cut because they needed to cut expenses. My benefits cost them too much.

[sandnsea]

41. No, the underperforming SCHOOL would be bothered

The teacher may or may not be and THAT is the point. I already addressed all of this and I'm not going to do it again. You can go back and read what I said, about the things that might need changing in the underperforming school in question, or just continue to believe everybody is out to get teachers. I really don't care.

[LWolf]

55. "All they're doing."

I think if you read for understanding, you'll note that I said firing or closing are included in all the options. A PART of every option. I didn't say it was the whole.

Pretending that firing and/or closing are not part of every single solution this white house can come up with is just not true.

[Go2Peace]

80. Our society is stuck and management are often sycophants. They rarely fire management

even though often that is the source of issues. Simple self preservation. Management may not always make all the decisions, but they provide the reports and "filter" the view of those who make the decisions.

Of course, in schools you have the factor of parents and the heavy politics of teacher blaming as well.

[LWolf]

83. It's complicated.

The politics involved, even at the local school site level, can be significant. And then there's the politics at the D.O., with the school, and the state, before you ever reach the federal level.

I've been fortunate to work for some good admins during my career. They all had their strengths and weaknesses, as do we all. The best are those who are fully supportive, and protective, of both staff and students.

I generally found something positive that I could work with in all my site admins, even those whose style or agenda were not a good fit. District office personnel is a different story, although I've worked with some wonderful professional people there, as well.

The best admins, at the site or district level, have come from small districts, in my experience. The larger the district, the more levels of bureaucracy, the more politics and the more people who are disconnected from what is happening with students.

[Angry Dragon]

37. I do not see the people here saying fire teachers

What I see is duncan is setting up for districts to get his money is one option for districts to fire teachers wholesale.

[LWolf]

7. Well, that certainly illustrates the invalidity of the turnaround model. nt

[eridani]

50. It's the lunch ladies' fault, actually.

That's why you have to fire all of them, as well as teachers.

[LWolf]

56. Good point. nt

[Catshrink]

64. Don't forget the custodians and nurses.

And oh! that secretary - definitely can her ass.

[Angry Dragon]

11. Gates says teachers are washed up after three years anyway

I have posted before that they are trying to make schools into factories and
they are just dumbing down the youth of this country

[LWolf]

16. Gates would be better off improving his lousy software

than trying to tell the nation how to improve education.

[Curmudgeoness]

18. Bingo, we have a winner here. nt

[MichiganVote]

32. Uh, I think he had to be referring to his software, not teachers.

[Angry Dragon]

36. He was refering to teachers

but on one thread I did say he got that inspiration from knowing his software has not gotten better after
he was in business three years

[MichiganVote]

38. Well thank goodness for Bill Gates and his critical thinking.

[Go2Peace]

78. "Making schools into factories" --exactly! What kind of society are we making?

[bik0]

19. My wife teaches at an inner city (95% black) school in one of the worst school systems in Ohio.

The last 25 years she taught 1st and 2nd grade, 5th grade, special education and currently teaches kindergarten.

The teacher is an extension of the parent/authority figure in a child's life. If the parent doesn't establish positive expectations and continuously monitor the progress of the child from grade to grade, then the chance of success in learning is virtually nonexistent.

Another factor is the stress on a child from one or a combination of things... when the parent is single, unemployed, on drugs, alcoholic or abusive. A teacher is powerless to overcome these obstacles.

Adding to the mix is the lack of personal responsibility of teen age women (some as young as 12) who have children out of wedlock, with no parenting skills. The father abandons them in most cases and the kid is passed off to the grandmother many times.

Most of my wife's students come from one parent families (14 out of 18 last year), usually female, and a lot of those are grandmothers. A typical parent/teacher night or open house attracts maybe 2 or 3 parents out of a class of 25. My wife has seen a direct correlation with parental apathy, abuse etc. vs. learning ability, comprehension and staying on task. Kids with learning disabilities are usually from abusive families and also suffer from personality disorders as well. These are angry children where learning is way down the list of priorities. They're angry about being abandoned and not cared for by a mother who's more concerned about getting high then how they do in school.

By the time these kids get into high school with 3nd grade reading skills and realize what opportunity was squandered - it's too late. They become unemployable following the path of their role model parents by dropping out of school, abusing drugs, having babies out of wedlock - and it becomes a vicious circle. No amount of money, vouchers, de-unionization will fix this problem.

[LWolf]

27. Do you think your wife should be evaluated on their test scores,

or on the commitment and skill she demonstrates in her efforts to help them?

Rhetorical question, of course. Teachers know that societal problems will have to be addressed before we can reach most of the neediest. Starting with addressing poverty.

[YvonneCa]

40. This is my experience as well. Thank you for...

...posting your experience. This makes the case for fixing our schools...the right way...NOW.

[sandnsea]

42. And I say that is unacceptable

And actually, a load of garbage. You think low income schools in rural America don't have the same problems? We do. We don't accept teachers who give up on kids.

[laughingliberal]

44. I don't see anything in that post that said teachers giving up on kids is acceptable. nt

[YvonneCa]

45. I missed that...

...too.

[sandnsea]

46. The last paragraph. Just gives up on them altogether

"By the time these kids get into high school with 3nd grade reading skills and realize what opportunity was squandered - it's too late. They become unemployable following the path of their role model parents by dropping out of school, abusing drugs, having babies out of wedlock - and it becomes a vicious circle. No amount of money, vouchers, de-unionization will fix this problem."

[laughingliberal]

47. I read that as a call to realize we have to reach kids earlier.

And holding a teacher responsible for the test scores of students who make it to high school with no foundation is a little unrealistic. I believe what I read is that busting teachers' unions and giving out vouchers isn't the answer.

As a nurse, I never 'gave up' on my patients but the ultimate outcomes of my efforts did have a lot to do with the overall state of the patient's health when I got them.

[sandnsea]

49. I believe the OP is about an elementary school

And the bulk of this thread is about why those kids can't learn. So who is going to reach them earlier? Not any teachers on DU.

[LWolf]

57. But # 19, which this subthread is discussing, is not. nt

[KakistocracyHater]

48. "lack of personable responsibility of teen women"-you forgot & MEN, it

takes 2. That's why sex education would help Americans. Why not pressure the father who runs off & give him some credit?

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. One of the new principals in our district is coming from a wealthy suburban district

to an elementary school in one of the poorest neighborhoods in the entire metro area. His first email to the staff included a mandate to have student work up on day one. He said the teachers should give the kids an assignment to complete at Open House (a few days before the first day) so they have something to put up.

If I was working for this fool I would ask what HE has done as principal to make sure kids and their families even show up at Open House.

Clueless.

[LWolf]

89. We get these waves, where it's been noticed that something is good.

Like it can be a good thing to put student work up. Admins here about it from their conferences and meetings, and suddenly we're being hounded to put work up; more, sooner, more frequently...

When I taught a self-contained class, I kept a portfolio board. Every student had a spot, and every few weeks they chose a piece of work from a pile of assignments. They had to write an explanation of why they chose it, and that explanation had to be about the learning, not about the score. I didn't put scores on the front of papers, to discourage using a score as a reason to choose, or not choose, work to display.

I don't do that with three classes; there's not enough wall space. I do have a spot for work; usually to display group projects.

The district that I left in CA had decided that standards had to be posted, and that every student should be able to tell an admin what standard they were working on during random "drop-in" visits. I was glad to leave that behind.

My current district has begun to get on the bandwagon; they began doing "walk throughs" last year. Principals and D.O. people would show up, watch for 2 or 3 minutes, fill out a paper noting what they'd seen, drop a copy on our desks, and leave. We were assured that this had nothing to do with evaluation. It's a good thing. One of the things they are looking for is the standard, and I never have it up. They grudgingly commented that, while it wasn't posted, "the students seemed to know what they were supposed to be learning." One left me a passive-aggressive evaluation, even though they weren't supposed to be evaluating. He used questions. "I wonder what would happen if you'd done it this way instead..." etc..

While I'm familiar with inquiry, and socratic methods, they aren't an appropriate method to communicate that he didn't like the way I did something. If I wanted his input, I'd ask, lol.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. We have to have 5 or 6 work samples up all the time

but not on the first day. More like beginning at the end of the 2nd or 3rd week of school.

[LWolf]

92. 5 or 6 total, or for each student?

What is the thinking behind it? Are students supposed to gain motivation or esteem, or are adults supposed to see evidence of learning happening, or...?

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. Yes for each kid

One for each core subject area plus a few extra. With a scoring guide and state standard.

I do it cause they tell me I have to. But I believe the purpose is evidence. The kids don't pay any attention to what we put up. They're so used to it; we've had this mandate for years. They'd probably say something if we DID NOT put up work.

[LWolf]

96. Up until last year, we kept a portfolio for all of that.

One work sample for each core subject, plus some baseline data on various assessments, filed each year and passed on to the next teacher.

Last year they did away with the work samples. We still have to turn in scores, but don't have to keep the samples.

I don't know what your case load is like, but I know our sped teachers have very little space to work with students: a kidney or round table, some chairs, a white board. That's it. They have no place to post work samples.

[proud2BlibKansan]

100. Yes we have to do portfolios too

We hang up clotheslines to display work.

[LWolf]

102. Clotheslines.

Hopefully nobody gets tangled up. ;)

[Taitertots]

22. They should test, but not base teacher pay or school funding on the results

I've yet to have someone explain how decreasing the funding for underachieving schools is supposed to help them. Or how decreasing teacher pay is supposed to entice good teachers to stay at underachieving schools.

The "race to the top" is almost ironic. It is not about students racing to the top, it is about forcing all the best teachers to abandon poor school districts and fight to work in the rich districts where they get extra funding, higher wages, and job security.

[sandnsea]

30. They get school improvement grants

RTTT is a completely different program, to develop the best models possible.

Underperforming schools apply for School Improvement Grants and choose from several models to turn the school around, including the possibility of a charter.

http://www.federalgrantswire.com/school-improvement-grants.html

[MichiganVote]

33. RTTT is a joke. Its parent pablum and even the use of the word "underperforming" is a distraction.

Is Congress an "underperforming" entity?

Is the military an "underperforming" body?

How about the FBI, CIA etc.?

Nowhere is this trite little do nothing descriptor used seriously and repetitively except in regard to education. Maybe, we just have some serious problems with "underperforming" students and parents related to the social/economic problems that our "underperforming" government continues to ignore.

[Starry Messenger]

43. +1000

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. Part of the problems teachers are experiencing is with is clearly the fault of their unions

That this was coming was obvious. Reasons were many, but the train was coming. Our unions had the opportunity to design metrics that would be fair to the teachers and they chose not to even participate. They just said "no way" and otherwise put their head in the sand. That window of opportunity has now closed and we are stuck with evaluation systems designed by non-educators.

I kind of feel like Cassandra of Troy on this one.

[Go2Peace]

81. Unions are experiencing the same inefficiencies and problems as our other institutions

And we *all* have to take another look at where we are going as a society. But *these* kinds of un-compassionate, poorly thought through, short sighted, solutions are just what we *don't* need to be doing!

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. That is completely false

My state union helped develop the evaluation tool used by our district and recommended by the state. And at the AFT convention this summer, a resolution to develop an evaluation tool was passed. I personally was trained by AFT last spring in various evaluation tools and metrics.

So yes, our unions did indeed choose to participate and didn't say no way while putting their heads in the sand. Of course, we have no way of forcing you to pay attention so you know what the unions are doing.

[snooper2]

35. How about working at a middle class school?>

Say right the middle between "rich" and "poor"

27K - 87K family income?

[LWolf]

53. Where I have worked,

teachers tend to view "middle class" as "rich." Relatively speaking. The rich are a small fraction of the whole, and many of the rich don't send their kids to public school. The middle class is as "rich" as many of us will ever see.

Did you think the 2nd school in the OP was "rich," or did it just SEEM rich in comparison?

[zenj8]

51. The end game for NCLB and RTTT

is to privatize education. Arnie and his gang want to turn every school into a charter. Some wont't make that change easily and they opt to fire teachers. Then they hire new, potentially less qualified teachers. They probably won't do much better than the old crew and the school will continue to flounder until they are forced to privatize.

[LWolf]

52. A charter is most of the way to privatization anyway.

Run privately, doesn't have to deal with unions.

[Recursion]

62. There are unionized and non-unionized charters

And there are teachers at non-union charter schools who list the fact that it's non-union as one of the reasons they prefer teaching there.

[LWolf]

65. There are all kinds of charters.

One of the reasons charters are not dependable. They are run privately, have less public oversight, use public money, and have much more flexibility.

In 27 years, 2 states, large districts, small districts, rural districts, city districts, I've never yet met a teacher who wanted to be without his or her union.

I have seen charters hire teachers that are not fully qualified, and I've seen charters resist their teachers who wanted to organize.

Can you find some statistics for what percent of charters are union, and whether that process was welcomed by the private management?

[G_j]

54. K&R

thank you

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. I'd LOVE to put all the public education naysayers in front of a classroom

for a month.

That would show them.

You can't just stand up in front and bullshit your way through the day.

[LWolf]

60. Something Arne's never done. nt

[Overseas]

59. K&R.

It has been so disturbing to read about the privatization of our public education system.

I still don't understand why Democrats could not have proposed different ways to improve our public education. There are lots of educational innovators who could have brought interesting programs into our public schools, working with our teachers and existing systems.

To me, having lived overseas for a long time, it always seemed so undemocratic to have school facilities' quality based on local tax revenue, so rich areas had computer labs and such, while poor areas were sharing textbooks or depending on kind teachers to buy some school supplies for their students.

I was hoping Democrats would affirm the importance of beefing up our public education system with better facilities for all schools, not privatization which makes quarterly profits more important than long-term sustainable excellence.

[valerief]

63. Trickle Down Blame. nt

[ecstatic]

66. I doubt he brought the exact same attitude to both schools

Basic social psychology.

[LWolf]

71. She. And I think she did.

Having taught in more than one district, and more than one school, I know that the reason I'm a teacher is unchanged just because I move from one school, district, or state, or another.

People generally don't become teachers because they want to teach those who are easier to teach. Most of us become teachers because we want to make a difference, and that means serving those who struggle.

Teachers generally recognize that collaboration and partnership make for a healthier school environment, better working conditions, and better classroom outcomes.

I saw this in my district last year. In '09, about 50 people were RIFd due to budget cuts, and in order to make sure that every classroom was staffed with a "highly qualified" teacher under NCLB, a round of forced transfers followed. Nobody was happy with forced transfers, obviously. My school lost 4 teachers to the RIF, and 2 were transferred to other schools, including one of my teaching partners. We gained 4 forced transfers. NONE of those people were happy about the transfers, but they came in determined to serve their new classes in our school to the best of their ability, and they were great partners throughout. At the end of the year, when the window for inter-district transfers for the coming year opened, 3 out of 4 chose to remain with us, and we are happy that they did so.

It's absolutely true that they didn't bring the same attitude to our school that they did to their previous schools.

It's also true that our students didn't suffer. They were still well served.

Social psychology MIGHT tell you that, if you want teachers to apply for jobs in schools that serve struggling students, you don't make those students' test scores part of evaluating the teacher or deciding teacher pay.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. I've been preaching this for years

I've seen so many colleagues move from urban to suburban or vice versa and they have these same observations.

Maybe one day we will face the fact that kids from low income families, kids from broken families, kids who are hungry, kids who have an incarcerated parent, kids who have nonEnglish speaking parents - all of them need to be taught differently and yes, they are more expensive to educate. We also need to examine the work their teachers do differently.

[LWolf]

72. Yes.

My last move was a HUGE change for me. I went from teaching in a large lower-middle class suburban school to a small, rural school with a much larger population, percentage wise, of poor students.

It wasn't my attitude that was different. My expectations, and the way I approached my students, DID have to evolve. I had to get to know them, their culture/s, their background knowledge, and something about how they lived in order to meet them where they are and help them move forward. A learning curve for me.

[bertman]

70. Excellent post. REC. nt

[johnaries]

74. Personally, I believe that we should look at ALL aspects.

Obviously, there is no "one size fits all" curriculum. But we do need some kind of "apples to apples" comparison. You said "The only answer I can come up with is the fact that both schools serve two very different communities and the students who come to each school bring very different background experiences, beliefs, and concerns." That makes sense and is probably true. So, how do we address that issue?

Many times it is not a matter of a "good vs bad" curriculum or "good vs bad" teachers, but a curriculum and teachers suited to the particular needs of the students. Sometimes it's simply a matter of trial and error until you can hit on the proper approach. But is there a better way? Do you have any suggestions? I'd be willing to hear them and I'm sure others would, as well.

[LWolf]

85. We address that issue by letting go of the need to compare.

Because it's simply not going to be "apples to apples." Human beings are more complex, and more individual, and so many different factors enter into it that it will never be truly valid.

Instead, the focus could go into these areas:

1. Address the primary sources of under-performance. In order to do that, we're going to need resources, which means $$$$$. The school system can't abolish poverty. Anyone wanting to see students perform better will put building a stronger, more widely spread safety net, and closing economic gaps, as a high priority outside of education. Within the system, I'd like to see things like: Before and after school programming and care for students, providing time and place to do homework, get tutoring, or enrichment activities. I'd like to see a healthy breakfast, lunch, and dinner, prepared on site with fresh food, for all students who are at school during those times. Healthy snacks, as well. I'd like to see a partnership with social services that would provide families with support: a health clinic, glasses, dental work, coats, shoes, school supplies, mental health services in addition to the school counselor, and a food bank if necessary. Add parenting classes, and parent-ed classes, to the before and after school offerings that parents could take while their kids were being tutored or enriched.

2. Within the school day and program, I'd like to see an intensive focus on differentiation. That term, and the practice of doing different things to serve the needs of different students, started with serving gifted students. Those of us who were training, and differentiating, and modeling and teaching differentiation to teachers, have known for decades that it's not just for the gifted; it's for all. While the mainstream has focused on differentiation for the gifted and disabled, it's time to look at a more individualized experience for students. That requires more resources. In order for teachers to assess and design a variety of learning experiences, they need more time and fewer students. Over-crowding and under-staffing leads to a factory approach. Differentiation also requires more flexibility in delivery, and more resources to choose from. Not every student needs to walk lock-step through a text book, but going outside the texts for materials and planning for different students to learn in different ways takes more time, and more money. So every teacher needs abundant protected planning time. By "protected," I mean times that cannot be filled up with meetings.

3. It needs to be recognized: students don't begin kindergarten on the same starting line. They bring 5 years of background experience, and well-used or un-used opportunities to develop the neural connections necessary for academic learning. They will not learn at the same pace. Some will learn quickly, and some need MUCH MORE TIME. All need more individual attention than the factory model allows. That means resources. A better student-staff ratio. Possibly more student days. The biggest obstacle of all is always time. For those who need more time, where does it come from? Before and after school tutoring, mentioned in #1, would help. More days might help. Otherwise, the only way to get more time is to add years on to the end of 12th grade.

4. As a whole, schools need permission and encouragement to try more flexible student groupings, moving outside the boundaries of grade levels and class rosters assigned to a teacher. This is best achieved when there is enough staff, and teachers work together to construct that more flexible, moving, and far-reaching structure.

Much of what needs to be done can't, and shouldn't, be standardized and handed down from the top. Schedules, structures, and methods of delivery, if we want them to be effective for a particular population, have to be created at the site level, based on the needs of the students in that school community. You can't legislate it. You can encourage it, and you can support it.

[Turbineguy]

75. His his book "Outliers"

Malcolm Gladwell raises the idea that the problem with education does not lie with the teachers at all but with the length of summer vacation and a few other things.

So trying to improve education by focusing on what is not the problem in the first place, will not help.

I went to elementary school in the Netherlands and the summer vacation was short, about 4 weeks (and seemed to last forever!). When I was in college (California Maritime) we had a 2 week break in the summer and two weeks for Christmas (during which I did internships during my senior year); the result was a degree in 3 years.

[LWolf]

87. The only factor the nation is considering at this time is the teacher.

And Gladwell has a point. The length of the school year is not the only factor that affects education; there are numerous other things to look at.

[Dinger]

76. K & R (nt)

[northernlights]

79. I ran into a teacher yesterday at Wallie's World

We were both picking up school supplies. Me, for myself. She, for her students. She said she is "average" in that she buys her students paper, pens, pencils...and underwear and socks. She said other teachers go much further in providing for their students, but that to do that she'd need to take a second job.

:wtf: as long as teachers find themselves dipping into their personal funds in order to literally support their students how can *anybody* dare to judge their effectiveness as teachers?!?!?! :wtf:

[Go2Peace]

82. Wow!

[LWolf]

86. She's right.

Most of us spend some of our own funds in the classroom; some more than others depending on the need.

It's nice for someone to notice that we actually DO care about our students, and their experiences in school. Thanks.

[Enthusiast]

84. K&R! Great post! nt

[Uncle Joe]

88. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, LWolf.

[sandyd921]

90. Really Want to improve academic outcomes for kids?

May not be what the President, Arne Duncan, or our society wants to hear, but here's how to do it:

1. Provide the supports and resources that low-income, at-risk parents and families need (e.g., economic, social, educational, home visits, parenting skill training, etc.) and

2. Provide early childhood intervention beginning in infancy to all children who are at-risk.

This wouldn't involve firing elementary and secondary ed teachers and would open up jobs for skilled social workers and early childhood specialists that are needed.

Fat chance that this society is even remotely interested in providing the necessary monetary investment. Simple, low-cost "solutions" are all they want to look at.

[LWolf]

94. You nailed it.

Simple, low-cost "solutions" that don't address the sources, but do provide a lot of political fodder.

[salin]

98. from your finger tips... to Obama's ears.

doubtful to happen - but would serve as a long-term stimulus with huge dividends for society.

[maryf]

99. Thanks...

teachers have to keep stating their case against merit pay, K&R

[w4rma]

103. A scheme to transfer funding from poor schools to wealthy schools?

Wealthy schools get to stay public and poor schools have to put up with billionaire, profiteer, unresponsive owners?