repeat after me "the mosque is NOT at the WTC site" (with map)

[kpete]

[still_one]

1. Why? The media does not want to inform, it was to fabricate

The place is also a burlington coat factory

[aquart]

4. No, it's no longer a Burlington Coat Factory.

It was a going business which provided jobs, all lost due to 9/11. Do you find it funny that people who had jobs suddenly didn't? Because a bunch of murderers thought what they wanted was so much more important?

Somehow you write as if the Burlington Coat Factory (which is a retail discount chain, not a factory) was something unimportant and laughable. And certainly not as important as the shiny new mosque being built on the grave of that business and those jobs.

I simply disagree.

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. It was Bush's recession and the bursting of the dot.com bubble,

followed by a decade of Wall Street looting that put it, like tens of thousands of other business, out of business.

9/11 had nothing to do with it.

[snagglepuss]

11. The building sustained structural damage from parts of the plane

falling on its roof which is why permission was given to tear it down. Furthermore the NY economy took a direct hit from 9-11, years before the US economy came crashing.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. Short memories.

We were already in a recession in September 01. People & investors who put billions into startups just because they were internet companies - whether they had any viable business plan or profit potential at all - were suddenly finding out that ".com" does not = "income". Bush was already "addressing this problem" with demands for tax cuts, which of course deepened the recession.

The economy would have tanked just fine without 9/11. Maybe you don't remember - that was the first time my 401k took a 40% loss.

In a strong economy, structural damage would have been simply covered by insurance. Insurance companies were not interested in insurance, however - they were interested in investing in derivitives - the 'looting' I mentioned that went on for the whole decade before the house of cards fell down in the last couple years.

I've always believed that the so-called 9/11 recession was just bullshit, using 9/11 to cover up for systemic problems with our bubble-based economy. I think if 9/11 never happened we'd have still seen the same recession, unemployment, and inflation that we saw over the Bush years. That's their business plan.

[still_one]

22. Self Delete, responed to an incorrect post /nt

[still_one]

16. The same prejudice exerted on me as Jew is being done against Muslims

in this case and I resent it

There is no equivalence to the individual vermin who did 9/11 and this, and those who think there is, have underlying prejudice that they refuse to recognize

This is the same logic used against the Japanese Americans when they were interred. We may diminish it by brushing it off that they can use a different location, but the message is clear, that "Muslim equates to terrorism"

It is the same bullshit thrown at me growing up when I was hazed in boarding school, and how they flaunted the Merchant of Venice at me, "being Shylock, 'the Jew'", who would not be redemned until the end when they forced him to accept the verdict of being a "christian", as though everything would be fine by that one "magnanimous act

How about closing the Mosque that is already in that area, does that sound good????

This is about prejudice, and those who have experienced it should be the first to be against it

This country is founded religious freedom, but it is becoming clearer everyday that when people "embraced the Patriot Act", that we were taking a dangerous turn

If the country continues in the direction it is going, everything that was fought and gained in the sixties will be lost, and what comes around will go around

The message is very clear from the hate propagated here, Muslims are inhuman. What if it was a Church or a Synagogue, would the outcry be as much? NO it wouldn't, and that is because this isn't about respecting those who died at 9/11, but generating hate against a religious group

I am ashamed of what this country is becoming, but we have been their before, during the McCarthy hearings, during the lynchings, bombings, and killing of people because they didn't share the White Anglo Saxon heritage

[snagglepuss]

19. Hogwash. Nothing here but strawmen and red herrings. nt

[still_one]

21. Which part do you think is hogwash? The Constitution? /nt

[Oceansaway]

2. K&R...n/t

[dkf]

3. No its at the site that was hit after flight 175 crashed through the south tower and north tower

[KharmaTrain]

14. And This Means All Muslims Are Guilty?

I'm still trying to find some logic in all the fauxrage. There were members of the Islamic faith who worked in that building and died in the attack. Do we broadbrush all of these people due to the actions of 19 fanatics? If so, they've won.

[still_one]

23. Mayor Bloomberg speaks for me on this issue

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/16/bloomberg-sad-day-for-ame_n_683692.html

[steve2470]

5. repost from my earlier comment...

If the old World Trade Center site and its surrounding area (however far that is) were truly regarded as a national, secular hallowed ground (akin to Gettysburg), why didn't GWB and Mayor Bloomberg and Governor Paterson, etc. try to buy up all that land and make it a national historic site ?

Yes, it would have been hugely expensive to do so (and perhaps impossible for some parcels), but.... you get my point. Instead, 99% of that land is dedicated to the gods of commerce.

The Cordoba House belongs anywhere ! Islam did not cause 9/11. Therefore, all opposition to it is based on false premises and blatant religious discrimination.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8950526&mesg_id=8952901

[gratuitous]

6. And it's not even a mosque

But facts are in short supply when the right wing is scaring up a fake controversy.

[steve2470]

7. MAYOR BLOOMBERG DISCUSSES THE LANDMARKS PRESERVATION COMMISSION VOTE on 45-47 Park Place

http://www.nyc.gov/portal/site/nycgov/menuitem.c0935b9a57bb4ef3daf2f1c701c789a0/index.jsp?pageID=mayor_press_release&catID=1194&doc_name=http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/html/2010b/pr337-10.html&cc=unused1978&rc=1194&ndi=1


(public document here so I can repost in full)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
PR- 337-10
August 3, 2010

Council Speaker Christine Quinn, Father Alexander Karloutsos from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, Rabbi Bob Kaplan from the Jewish Community Council, Reverend Brian Jordan from the Church of St. Francis of Assisi, Rabbi Irwin Kula from the National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership-CLAL, Reverend Jim Cooper from Trinity Church, Reverend Les Mullings from the Church of the Nazarene, Imam Shamsi Ali from the Islamic Cultural Center of New York, Reverend T.K. Nakagaki from the New York City Buddhist Church, Cara Berkowitz from the UJA Federation and Matthew Weiner from the Interfaith Center of New York Join Mayor on Governors Island, Where the Dutch who Founded New Amsterdam – the Earliest Religiously-tolerant Colonial Settlement in America – First Lived

High resolution photos can be downloaded from the Mayor’s Office Flickr Page at www.flickr.com/photos/nycmayorsoffice/

The following are Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg’s remarks as delivered on Governors Island:

“We have come here to Governors Island to stand where the earliest settlers first set foot in New Amsterdam, and where the seeds of religious tolerance were first planted. We’ve come here to see the inspiring symbol of liberty that, more than 250 years later, would greet millions of immigrants in the harbor, and we come here to state as strongly as ever – this is the freest City in the world. That’s what makes New York special and different and strong.

“Our doors are open to everyone – everyone with a dream and a willingness to work hard and play by the rules. New York City was built by immigrants, and it is sustained by immigrants – by people from more than a hundred different countries speaking more than two hundred different languages and professing every faith. And whether your parents were born here, or you came yesterday, you are a New Yorker.

“We may not always agree with every one of our neighbors. That’s life and it’s part of living in such a diverse and dense city. But we also recognize that part of being a New Yorker is living with your neighbors in mutual respect and tolerance. It was exactly that spirit of openness and acceptance that was attacked on 9/11.

“On that day, 3,000 people were killed because some murderous fanatics didn’t want us to enjoy the freedom to profess our own faiths, to speak our own minds, to follow our own dreams and to live our own lives.

“Of all our precious freedoms, the most important may be the freedom to worship as we wish. And it is a freedom that, even here in a City that is rooted in Dutch tolerance, was hard-won over many years. In the mid-1650s, the small Jewish community living in Lower Manhattan petitioned Dutch Governor Peter Stuyvesant for the right to build a synagogue – and they were turned down.

“In 1657, when Stuyvesant also prohibited Quakers from holding meetings, a group of non-Quakers in Queens signed the Flushing Remonstrance, a petition in defense of the right of Quakers and others to freely practice their religion. It was perhaps the first formal, political petition for religious freedom in the American colonies – and the organizer was thrown in jail and then banished from New Amsterdam.

“In the 1700s, even as religious freedom took hold in America, Catholics in New York were effectively prohibited from practicing their religion – and priests could be arrested. Largely as a result, the first Catholic parish in New York City was not established until the 1780’s – St. Peter’s on Barclay Street, which still stands just one block north of the World Trade Center site and one block south of the proposed mosque and community center.

“This morning, the City’s Landmark Preservation Commission unanimously voted not to extend landmark status to the building on Park Place where the mosque and community center are planned. The decision was based solely on the fact that there was little architectural significance to the building. But with or without landmark designation, there is nothing in the law that would prevent the owners from opening a mosque within the existing building. The simple fact is this building is private property, and the owners have a right to use the building as a house of worship.

“The government has no right whatsoever to deny that right – and if it were tried, the courts would almost certainly strike it down as a violation of the U.S. Constitution. Whatever you may think of the proposed mosque and community center, lost in the heat of the debate has been a basic question – should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion? That may happen in other countries, but we should never allow it to happen here. This nation was founded on the principle that the government must never choose between religions, or favor one over another.

“The World Trade Center Site will forever hold a special place in our City, in our hearts. But we would be untrue to the best part of ourselves – and who we are as New Yorkers and Americans – if we said ‘no’ to a mosque in Lower Manhattan.

“Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11 and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values – and play into our enemies’ hands – if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists – and we should not stand for that.

“For that reason, I believe that this is an important test of the separation of church and state as we may see in our lifetime – as important a test – and it is critically important that we get it right.

“On September 11, 2001, thousands of first responders heroically rushed to the scene and saved tens of thousands of lives. More than 400 of those first responders did not make it out alive. In rushing into those burning buildings, not one of them asked ‘What God do you pray to?’ ‘What beliefs do you hold?’

“The attack was an act of war – and our first responders defended not only our City but also our country and our Constitution. We do not honor their lives by denying the very Constitutional rights they died protecting. We honor their lives by defending those rights – and the freedoms that the terrorists attacked.

“Of course, it is fair to ask the organizers of the mosque to show some special sensitivity to the situation – and in fact, their plan envisions reaching beyond their walls and building an interfaith community. By doing so, it is my hope that the mosque will help to bring our City even closer together and help repudiate the false and repugnant idea that the attacks of 9/11 were in any way consistent with Islam. Muslims are as much a part of our City and our country as the people of any faith and they are as welcome to worship in Lower Manhattan as any other group. In fact, they have been worshipping at the site for the better part of a year, as is their right.

“The local community board in Lower Manhattan voted overwhelming to support the proposal and if it moves forward, I expect the community center and mosque will add to the life and vitality of the neighborhood and the entire City.

“Political controversies come and go, but our values and our traditions endure – and there is no neighborhood in this City that is off limits to God’s love and mercy, as the religious leaders here with us today can attest.”

*end of speech*

[liberal N proud]

9. Unless the building in those two blocks are torn down you can't even see the former WTC site

But this nation is in a frenzy because propaganda works.

[bbinacan]

10. About 200 yards away. n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

12. What you said. K and R nt

[jberryhill]

13. Repeat After Me - Nobody Cares How Close It Is

You think the distance makes a difference to the idiots who don't want ANY facility of ANY kind built by ANY Muslims ANYWHERE?

It doesn't.

Pointing out the distance is of no significance whatsoever to the bigots. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

The whole "it is X far away" point is entirely irrelevant.

[Subdivisions]

15. What a stupid fucking thing to be all up in arms about. A faction

of our government kills thousands of people there (and more are dying from exposure to toxins since) and no one gives a shit. Oooohhhhhh, but someone wants to put an Islamic community center there and everyone goes apeshit.

Give me a fucking break.

[truebrit71]

18. Repeat after me.."It isn't even a mosque"

..applying the same logic being used by the Teahadists makes every hospital that has a chapel in it actually a church..

But that's too fucking logical, and saying 'Muslim Community Center' really doesn't have the same impact as "The towelheads are going to build a Mosque at the WTC!!!"..

The media in this country makes me ill..

[geek_sabre]

20. Many consider it a part of ground zero (aerial photo)

Since it sustained severe damage from one of the planes. This picture/map gives you a better view:



On this picture, its two streets below WTC Building 7 which completely collapsed due to fallen debris. Part of one of the planes went through the building in question.

Not saying I personally oppose the mosque being built anywhere, but as a New Yorker, I find it a little insensitive to choose this location. I'd feel the same way if Trump tried to build a hotel there.

Hopefully an actual aerial photo will provide a little more context. The OP image doesn't really do it justice.

[whopis01]

24. What do you think should be done with this location?

If you don't think it should be used for a community center/mosque and you don't think it should be used for a hotel, what do you think would be appropriate? And do you feel the same way for all the other buildings within the same radius?

[Blue Meany]

25. What if it were at ground zero?

It shouldn't change anything. This is a setup by the rightwing. By denying that it is at ground zero, one implicitly agrees that it shouldn't be at ground zero. If it shouldn't be there, it follows that there may be other places a mosque shouldn't be built--say, anywhere near ground zero. It's a slippery slope.