Sorry, but I don't buy the "Obama is a Christian" line either.

[howard112211]

The guy taught in Harvard. If truly his "Christian faith played a major role in his daily life" he would totally be falling out of the demographic. I realize that Obama has been a member of a church for large parts of his life. But that really doesn't say much. I bet in reality he is "secretly" an agnostic or atheist who realizes that in America to get anywhere politically you need some Church creds.

[The Magistrate]

1. You Are Wading Pretty Deep Into 'No True Scotsman' Territory Here, Sir...

[howard112211]

3. I wouldn't hold it against him. In fact, I think the opposite would be scary.

A president who, after a hard day of work, thinks "well I think I need some guidance for tomorrow" and picks up a bible.

[Erose999]

62. He is simultaneously a Kenyan Muslim and a member of Jerimiah Wright's X-ian church.

Don't you watch Fox News?

[JohnyCanuck]

78. Or worse yet

a president who believes he holds private one on one conversations with God in which God tells him directly which dictators and evil-doers to bump off.

Did Bush Say God Told Him To Go To War?

[JVS]

87. +1

[proud2BlibKansan]

109. +1

[Crystal Clarity]

2. You can't take the man at his word?

Why would he lie about something like that? And if you don't believe his words, certainly his actions seem to back up his assertion... Who in their right mind would spend years going to church if they didn't have some reason to do so?

[howard112211]

4. Depends on the church.

I was active as a "community organizer" for a couple of years. It was a way of, well, doing something for the youth of my community. Did I believe in god? No. At least not the way they do. In a setting where church life covers much of the social life of a community, there can be other reasons than believing to participate. As for his word on this. Well, had he said otherwise he would not be president.

[Crystal Clarity]

5. I'm not interested in his motivations

and refuse to speculate on something as personal as a someone's faith (or lack thereof)... other then to say that his words and actions are enough for me. All the rest falls into the none-of-my-business category.

[dsc]

21. It is not a personal matter when he uses that faith to discriminate against

a group of people, as he does in regards to gay marriage. I tend to disagree with the OP, I think Obama is religious and a Christian, but his religion is not a personal matter.

[Lilith Velkor]

160. Perhaps lack of faith is not the only thing

he's keeping on the down-low.

[JuniperLea]

170. You live up to your screen name...

Well done!

[SpiralHawk]

9. So you are using your own faithlessness to fling poo at others.

Pretty damn low. Own your own shit, dude. Don't try to project it on to others. As everyone knows all to well by now, that is a standard Republicon Homelander BS tactic, and the American people are fed up with it...

[dmallind]

63. Why is it "flinging poo" and "shit" to be agnostic or atheist or think another is?

Would you ever apply such terms to someone wondering if a professed Christian were really a Buddhist or a Hindu?

[seabeyond]

186. he is calling obama a liar and hypocrite and imposter. has nothing to do with atheism. nt

[cleanhippie]

114. How is he "flinging poo"?

He has a reasonable thought and he has attacked no one. Perhaps it is you that is projecting their own insecurities? Then you imply he is using "Republicon Homelander BS tactic"s ....really? C'mon.

[seabeyond]

188. there is nothing reasonable about the op. obama spends decades living a christian life....

church, talk of belief and this poster says, no.... cant be, he is smart.

what is reasonable about that.

[Hekate]

196. Well said, SpiralHawk, but it seems all too many DUers are embracing this Repub meme & tactic

People should absolutely own their own shit.

Hekate

[Deep13]

58. Take a politician at his word? Never. nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

73. "Why would he lie about something like that?"

You must be joking.

Being an atheist or even agnostic is disqualifying of holding any high office in these United States.

That said, I fear that he may be telling the truth, which is alarming to contemplate.

[slackmaster]

104. I, for one, cannot do that

He's a politician.

[dkf]

6. Well it is true that you need to be a Christian to get elected President in this country.

[DFLforever]

7. Yes, but do you think that's why Obama went to church for

all those years? Isn't that what the OP's implying?

[dkf]

10. Didn't he stop as President?

And Obama isn't an idiot. If he wanted to be President he had to prep

[DFLforever]

17. If you read Dreams from My Father.

(if you have not already) he answers the question. It's connected largely to belonging and identity.

He has attended church a few times since he's been president although I don't believe they've picked a regular congregation.

I'm not a church goer myself but I tend to think Obama is a believer. I got that impression watching the tape of him speaking at the Baptist church on MLK day earlier this year. He counts on it for support and strength.

But like everyone else, I'm just speculating.

[Threedifferentones]

27. Yes, yes I do think that about Obama and every other politician.

Anyone who truly believed in an afterlife and a loving God would do as Jesus did: give up all their material possessions and forget Earthly pleasures. 99.99% of religious people are thus just going because other people are, and because accepting someone else's make believe answers to life's biggest questions is so much easier than making up your own. This of course means any politician must attend in order to get elected.

[niceypoo]

129. He wanted an extra hour of sleep on Sundays

[old mark]

8. Personally, I'd rather he were agnostic or athiest rather than a believer in spooks

and magic, but I understand the necessity to lie and go through the motions for the typical American idiot voter....evidently they think he is a Muslim, anyway...would an agnostic be worse?

Could an openly agnostic person even be elected President here in Never Never land?
As an agnostic who has for decades had multiple problems working with "good christians" who hated me, I don't believe it would be possible - too much stupid in this country.


mark

[stuntcat]

56. me too

.

[dmallind]

67. Would an agnostic be worse?

Well technically no because agnosticism isn't a position on god belief but one on how the truth can ever be known. But assuming that you mean a nonbeliever, someone without god beliefs, an atheist? Yes electorally that would be way way worse and there have been many surveys (Pew being the most consistent in tracking trends) that show this both before and after 2001.

And no - it will not be possible for someone who openly abjures god belief to be elected president in this country for many many decades.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

74. Yes. All polling puts muslims way ahead of filthy non-believers

Consider the adoration Of Joe Lieberman by fundies who believe Joementum is headed for a richly deserved eternity of torture at the hands of a loving god.

They admire that he believes in a religion... while holding that it is a false religion.

[old mark]

158. There evidently still some people trying to get over JFK being catholic...

The whole country is a looney bin, IMO...


mark

[dmallind]

174. NO argument there - but the percentage who would need to get over godless is much higher. NT

[Arugula Latte]

185. Ditto. I hope he secretly realizes "faith" is a load o' crapola.

[Radical Activist]

11. Probably.

His writings and personal statements about his faith don't sound like a born-again believer. He usually says something about the value of faith and what a church can do in a community. He may have some beliefs about God, but he probably isn't a traditional Christian.

[cornermouse]

12. When did born-again believer become a traditional christian?

I've always considered other churches, such as methodist or episcopalian or presbyterian, to be the traditional christian.

[WolverineDG]

49. Isn't it nice when people who aren't Christian & have no clue go around telling Christians

what a "real" or "traditional" Christian is?

dg

[immoderate]

79. Yeah, it's usually Christians who do that.

They are always telling other Christians how to be a Christian.

--imm

[cleanhippie]

115. The same can be said about those who aren't atheist/agnostic that go around telling

atheists/agnostics that they are evil, bad, that atheism is just another religion, spewing pascals wager, etc.


Normally, I would say it goes both way, yet non-christians usually base their opinion of what "christians" are on the behavior they observe.

[cornermouse]

128. error

[Radical Activist]

117. I didn't claim that.

I wrote he didn't sound like a born-again in once sentence. I wrote that he doesn't sound like a traditional Christian in another sentence. I believe both statements are true. You're inferring something I did not write.

[Hekate]

197. None is "traditional" f'pete's sake. They're mainstream to varying degrees, but the biggest ...

... in terms of sheer numbers is the Southern Baptists. Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox have been around the longest, so have the most claim on "tradition." America, with its freedom of religion, spawned the most numerous sects of anyplace -- in Olde Europe those sects were persecuted to extinction for heresy.

In traditional terms (and I mean all the way back to Jesus getting baptized by his cousin John) anyone who gets baptized is "born again" spiritually -- it's only what used to be the Holy Roller fringe that makes a big hairy deal about talking about it all the time.

Hekate

[mwb970]

13. And how exactly do you know all of this?

Have you seen into Obama's soul? Are you telepathic? Are you God?

:shrug:

[nc4bo]

20. Of course he is, can't help his/herself.

Now you all just excuse lil ole me for a sec while I go load up "Onward Christian Soldier.mp3"

[cleanhippie]

118. Where did the OP state that?

I don;t think he was saying this was fact. Why the overreaction?

[Sea Witch]

14. I would suggest clicking the link provided

http://www.hds.harvard.edu

For those who don't do links:

Harvard Divinity School

History and Mission

The origins of Harvard Divinity School and the study of theology at Harvard can be traced back to the very beginning of Harvard College. From 1636, when it was established by vote of the General Court of Massachusetts Bay Colony, Harvard has had a commitment to educating religious leaders:

"After God had carried us safe to New England and we had builded our houses, provided necessaries for our livelihood, reared convenient places for God's worship, and settled the civil government: One of the next things we longed for and looked after was to advance learning and perpetuate it to posterity; dreading to leave an illiterate ministry to the churches, when our present ministers shall lie in the dust. "

Because of this desire of the founders to perpetuate a learned ministry, theology continued to hold a position of importance as Harvard grew. For example, the first professorship in the College and the oldest in the country was the Hollis Professorship of Divinity, endowed in 1721. In 1811, the first graduate program for ministerial candidates was organized. In 1816, the Divinity School itself was established, the first non-sectarian theological school in the country, to ensure that "every encouragement be given to the serious, impartial, and unbiased investigation of Christian truth."

Today the concerns of the founders of Harvard remain at the center of the School. Its purpose is to educate women and men for service as leaders in religious life and thought—as ministers and teachers, and in other professions enriched by theological study. The setting is an academic community characterized by continuing commitment to serious and impartial investigation of truth. Here, students and faculty representing over 55 denominations and strikingly diverse ethnic, cultural, and religious backgrounds engage in rigorous historical and comparative study of Christian traditions in the context of other world religions and value systems.

[Fumesucker]

15. Obama wishes that he had been caught with the drugs he was doing as a teenager and prosecuted...

In order that he could straighten his life out and become a success.

Any other explanation of his stated desire as president to keep the same drugs he has freely admitted doing as a teen illegal makes him a major hypocrite and anyone who has studied the Gospels even cursorily knows that the sinners Jesus the Christ most often and vociferously spoke out against were the hypocrites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gil_Kerlikowske

Richard Gil Kerlikowske (born November 23, 1949) is the current Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, a position generally referred to as the United States "Drug Czar". He assumed office on May 7, 2009.

In a May 22, 2009 interview on KUOW radio, he said any drug 'legalization' would be "waving the white flag" and that "legalization is off the the charts when it comes to discussion, from my viewpoint" and that "legalization vocabulary doesn't exist for me and it was made clear that it doesn't exist in President Obama's vocabulary." Specifically about marijuana, he said, "It's a dangerous drug" and about the medical use of marijuana, he said, "we will wait for evidence on whether smoked marijuana has any medicinal benefits - those aren't in."

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

77. +1

[madokie]

16. To me I like the idea that a leader is agnostic or atheist

This divine intervention shit scares the hell out of me.
But it sounds to me like you are just wanting to find fault with our very fine man President Obama and are grasping at straws to get there.

[howard112211]

36. No, my OP is actually not criticism. I don't see it as a fault.

I also like the idea of a leader that is agnostic or atheist. And provided my hypothesis is correct, that Obama is one, I still don't blame him for associating with Christianity, in particular as a politician. I am enough a pragmatist to see that this is necessary in the US and would not hold it against anyone who does this.

[AndyA]

18. What difference does it make?

People were concerned about John F. Kennedy's religious beliefs, too.

There's supposed to be a separation of church and state in this country. And there's also supposed to be freedom of/from religion.

Obama's faith makes no difference to me at all.

[mysticalchick]

19. Who are you to judge?

A person's spiritual path is their own and really, who are you to lay judgement on that?

What's it to you? How does it affect your life in any way what faith, if any, President Obama practices?

Geez.

[hlthe2b]

22. So, he is too intelligent or too educated to be truly religious?

While I am not the one to defend religion in general, I daresay you might be surprised if you polled major university professors--including Harvard. That likely includes a significant majority of major scientists, as well.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

24. +1

[cleanhippie]

121. -1

You may be surprised to know that most scientists and PhD's do not have belief.

[tabasco]

206. Why are you a liar? n/t

[trotsky]

28. Not commenting on the OP, but intelligence/education and irreligion...

have been shown to correlate.

[dmallind]

68. Actually 90%+ of life science PhDs, and a majority of ALL hard science PhD's have no god beliefs.

[Crystal Clarity]

120. Link? nt.

[dmallind]

125. Will you accept this if I provide one? As publicly as you challenge it now?

All too often peremptive demands for links are met only with quibbles and yeah buts when provided. Will you do the same or be reasonable? It's 10-15 minutes of my tim,e to track down base stidies of widely accepted information. Maybe more if most stories don't link to scources. You could do the same of course but you want me to. What's the return?

[kwassa]

215. 40 percent of biologists, physicists and mathematicians said they believed in God

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/national/23believers.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

According to a much-discussed survey reported in the journal Nature in 1997, 40 percent of biologists, physicists and mathematicians said they believed in God - and not just a nonspecific transcendental presence but, as the survey put it, a God to whom one may pray "in expectation of receiving an answer."

The survey, by Edward J. Larson of the University of Georgia, was intended to replicate one conducted in 1914, and the results were virtually unchanged. In both cases, participants were drawn from a directory of American scientists.

Others play down those results. They note that when Dr. Larson put part of the same survey to "leading scientists" - in this case, members of the National Academy of Sciences, perhaps the nation's most eminent scientific organization - fewer than 10 percent professed belief in a personal God or human immortality.

[cleanhippie]

119. That kind of poll has been done, and YOU might be surprised....

A majority of college professors and scientists are not religious.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

198. polls, schmolls

some are, some aren't - can't you handle that? too bad. I should ask - by "religious" are you talking about organized religion or a personal, spiritual belief?

[Deep13]

171. I don't think so.

While one cannot automatically conclude that a highly educated person is not religious, there is a strong correlation between education--especially scientific education--and a person's lack of religiousity.

[rucky]

23. Obama is...

anything you want him to be.

[WVRICK13]

25. Why Should I Give A Shit

as long as he doesn't use his fantasies to govern.

[Kahuna]

26. This is definately an over-the-top criticism and alerted as such.

:puke:

[moobu2]

30. Why is it over-the-top criticism? Nothing wrong with being an atheist

or agnostic. I think most well educated elected officials, know there's no such things as god/s, but have to play along or go home.

[Kahuna]

40. He's calling the president a liar. THAT's what's wrong with it. nt

[cleanhippie]

123. And a president lying is beyond the realm of possibilities?

[geek tragedy]

45. Accusing THIS President of lying about his religious faith

and echoing the rightwing attacks is major troll bait.

[quinnox]

34. there is nothing over the top about it at all

He is actually complimenting Obama for being intelligent enough to not believe in organized religion but savvy enough to know he has to pretend otherwise!

[geek tragedy]

47. Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with the Freepers who call him an Islamist

because Islam is a religion of peace.

[cleanhippie]

122. In what way is this "over the top" or criticism?

:puke: yourself.

[seabeyond]

29. an absolutely ridiculous op. nt

[VMI Dem]

31. I think he is absolutely a Christian and it drives some of his bigoted views on gays.

Where else would it come from?

[immoderate]

86. Pretending would do the same, including the bigotry.

--imm

[Bluerthanblue]

149. sadly, I know of several people who are bigoted against gays

who have no actual knowledge of, or real connection to "Christianity".

There are some very hate-filled, selfish, controlling people in this world. Some hide the worst parts of themselves behind the banner of "religion" and some proudly claim their own superior intellect and logic is what makes them worthy to "judge".

Personally, I think there is a great potential for good and bad in all of us.

[mdmc]

32. ?

[saltpoint]

33. Maybe he's Jewish. No, wait, he's probably a Buddhist.

Maybe he's both!

[quinnox]

35. you are probably right

But to me I don't care what his religion is or isn't. Its his policies that I wish he would change, and move to the left!

[Vinca]

37. Let's face, atheists will probably never see a POTUS elected from their ranks.

It's a shame, too. I think we're better at seeing the forest through the trees.

[proteus_lives]

70. How?

"I think we're better at seeing the forest through the trees."

How are you better then a religious person?

[Vinca]

75. You'd probably have to be on the outside looking in to understand it.

[proteus_lives]

84. How do you know I'm not?

[Vinca]

124. Sorry. I've broken one of my cardinal rules about not talking

religion vs. atheism. I respect the Constitution and respect a person's right to believe in whatever gives them comfort. My personal views on religion tend to quickly deteriorate into areas that offend believers and I find it best to remain quiet amongst the masses.

[cleanhippie]

127. And that is truly a shame.

You should not have to hide your convictions for fear of "offending" someone else's convictions. Believers certainly have no regard for the offensiveness of their beliefs when they spout off.

You should never be afraid to speak your mind if you have a rational, reasonable and logical argument.

[proteus_lives]

157. You're right.

"Believers certainly have no regard for the offensiveness of their beliefs when they spout off."

You're a great example of that fact.

[cleanhippie]

126. In just that sense.

There was never a claim to be "better than a religious person". Nice strawman.

[WolverineDG]

137. Splinter in eye meet beam in eye nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

148. Honestly? I think there are radicals on both sides.

Sorry, no pass for atheists either. I honestly don't care enough to be either or, but my favorite thing to tell my atheist friends is that there is nothing worse than a fundie Christian, although fundie atheists give them a good run for the money. ;)
That said, I disagree with your assumption. I believe that one day soon we'll have an atheist as POTUS. The linkage of faith to the debacle that is our current 2 Party system will be its inevitable downfall.

[Radical Activist]

161. I'm sure there have been some.

At the very least, there was the non-Christian Jefferson.

[saltpoint]

38. And not only that, but I don't think he plays basketball

either.

World leaders use doubles all the time.

I'm sure that was the case with Obama pretending to be good at basketball.

[TheKentuckian]

39. Lots of space between atheist and fundie. Lots

[CBGLuthier]

41. You are no different from the bigots who think he is muslim

You and they are both convinced without any evidence other than than the workings of your minds that he is not what he says he is. No moral high ground for you at all.

[howard112211]

43. LoL. So do you think that Bush was a Born Again?

[pipi_k]

69. I don't see any evidence of bigotry in the OP

In fact, I think the OP is merely stating a harsh reality...that it's going to be a very cold day in Hell the day an Atheist, or even an Agnostic, is elected President of the USA.

And that doesn't make the OP a "bigot"...it makes most of the US population bigots.


As an Agnostic/Atheist myself, I have never understood why people with a religion are viewed by so many as MORE moral...MORE honest...MORE of everything "good" than people who don't believe in God.

It's not a shame upon people who see and understand that...it's shame upon people who still think that way.

[seabeyond]

180. regardless of what obama says and does, because he is smart he cannot be christian

you dont hear any bigotry in that.

[KansasVoter]

42. I would love it if he was an Atheist, but how do you explain the day of prayer crap?

[geek tragedy]

44. What next, birtherism? nt

[DailyGrind51]

46. Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Fr. Michael Fleger would probably disagree!

They knew him prior to his political career in Chicago, and, unless you suggest he was lying every time he walked into church, he is a Christian.

[WolverineDG]

48. So in order to be a "real" Christian, you can't teach at Harvard?

:wtf:


dg

[Solomon]

50. Oh boy. Some real hurt feelings in this thread.

The op is not over the top or bigoted or whatever. I have a hard time myself imagining that someone as intelligent as Obama is believes in a magical sky God. The problem is, religion and christianity can be interpreted in so many ways. For example, I don't believe in the dogma, miracles or supernatural aspects of christianity. Hell, I don't even believe that Jesus was a real person. But I do live my life in accord with Christian philosophy. To me that means I'm a "christian". To some "christians" it means I'm an infidel going to hell.

Because there are so many fake christians now a days, I hesitate to call myself a "christian" less the listener assumes that I believe in all the hokey stuff.

So on the one hand I believe he's too intelligent to believe the way most "christians" believe. But on the other hand, being in a position of so much power in the world tends to make one believe that some higher power is at work. So I think at this point in his life, he's stradling a bit. His brain tells him the hokey stuff is unreal, but his one in 10 billions position in the world is likely to make him think there's some kind of higher power afoot.

Like some others here, I would rather have a leader who was agnostic or atheistic, than a born again "christian".

[DailyGrind51]

55. You would rather have a "Stalin" or a "Pol Pot"? I would rather have a leader who does not permit

personal belief to determine his/her official responsibilities. Atheism or agnosticism does not guarantee humanity or decency!

[jonnyblitz]

57. atheism does not equal COMMUNISM. you've been watching

too much FOX news there, sparky. :crazy:

[TheKentuckian]

80. William F Buckley then, if I recall he was an atheist.

[DailyGrind51]

110. WFB was a Catholic, Ayn Rand actually thought he was too intelligent to believe in God.

Rand was revealing the inherent anti-religious bigotry in objectivism.

[TheKentuckian]

153. Fair enough, I apparently misrecollectified

[DailyGrind51]

108. I didn't claim that, sparkless, I was merely stating fact, they were atheists!

"The Pope? How many divisions has he got?" — Josef Stalin, to French Foreign Minister Pierre Laval, in reply to a suggestion that the Soviet Union should encourage Catholicism in order to propitiate the Pope, in Winston Churchill, The Second World War, vol. 1, "The Gathering Storm," ch. 8, (1948), said, 13 May 1935, quoted from, The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations

Stalin is quoted as saying "You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" in E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin, Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940






BTW,I never watch FOX "News", jack!

[cleanhippie]

131. No, you WERE claiming just that.

You are being disingenuous at best and ignorant at worst. :puke:

[dropkickpa]

102. I'll trade you a Stalin & Pol Pot for Hitler!

Sweet mother fuck, not this shit for the thousandth time! Christianity doesn't guarantee humanity or decency either!

[DailyGrind51]

113. I agree with you here, many "Christians" have never read the New Testament, and act like jerks!

Hitler was a baptized Catholic, but as a Nazi, practiced Norse mythology utilizing Wagnerian imagery in Nazi rituals and ceremonies. Hitler's goal was to transform the Nibelungen ideal into practical reality.

[cleanhippie]

130. Neither does religion.

Way to spew your ignorance. Religion in no way guarantees humanity or decency, in fact, it may actually lead to just that.

[Solomon]

165. I've seen some big strawmen but this is one of the biggest I've

seen. So Pol Pot and Stalin, who buy the way studied for priesthood, are the best that agnostics or atheists can do?

I'll match Pol Pot and Stalin (doubtful anyway) against the avalanche of christian leaders who have had they're run of the planet.

[Deep13]

175. Straw man. Who said atheism guaranteed anything?

Seriously, you ought to be ashamed for reaching for the Stalin card. No one is talking about imposing a totalitarian, ostensibly secular personality cult on anyone. As far as Pol Pot goes, I doubt that Cambodia is an atheistic country. (That's what matters, what the people believe, not what the head of state believes.)

And societies where people's thinking is not chained by irrational, dogmatic thinking generally do better than religious ones.

[Arugula Latte]

216. Ha ha ha. Right, because the only choice for an atheist leader is Stalin or Pol Pot.

:rofl:

[POAS]

65. I'm sorry were your feelings hurt? n/t

[Solomon]

162. No. Actually I was referring to the other posters on the board

who have accused the op of something he/she hasn't done.

[Renew Deal]

89. You sound like Dr. Laura.

The OP and your post are "bigoted." You're saying that Obama is "too smart" to be a Christian. How is that not bigoted?

[Solomon]

163. See. Yet another poster whose feelings got hurt.

Would it be bigoted to say someone is too intelligent to believe in Santa Claus? The Fairy Godmother?


You guys kill me with you faux outrage. I also, if you noticed, made a delineation between christian dogma and christian philosphy, didn't I. Or are you not intelligent enough to see that.
I in fact referred to myself as a "christian" in the sense that I espouse the philosophy.

So to reiterate once again, I said the issue was complicated because of those christians who subscribe to the philosophy without needing the flying spaghetti monster, and I clearly see Obama in this category.

Try again. Read with comprehension instead of knee-jerking. As I said, a perfect example of people getting their feelings hurt.

[seabeyond]

199. knee jerk? because a person doesnt agree with you, you presume to tell person feelings hurt.

do tell. how do you get her/his feelings hurt by the little that was said. no indication "feeling hurt". but there you are, with your knee jerk assumptions telling that person what they are feeling when really, you are clueless.

now, tell me how intelligent that is?

or

are you merely being snarky.

when you get to my post, you will be off base when you condescendly tell me my feelings are hurt. clue in. they arent.

[seabeyond]

190. it isnt hurt feelings. it is not understanding how smart people can figure all this out about a

person they dont know.

i mean wtf. you dont know anything about obamas personal belief but you have a whole theory going.

we have what the man offers, that is it. the prupose of the thread was to say, a smart man doesnt believe in christianity, bottomline. and then you say.... what is there to be offended about.

now, personally, i dont hold to any religion. i can say christian.... but it goes so beyond that. more like you in some respects. but i am not arrogant enough to conclude what anyone is or is not and how smart that makes them or how stupid it is.

kinda like those christians that decide if someone is christian enough. and then we say, see, they arent christian.

just not gonna play that game.

[mike r]

51. The White House says the public — and the press — are not listening

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/19/us/politics/19memo.html

Mr. Obama spoke out about his faith during his 2008 campaign — he had little choice amid controversy over his former pastor, Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. — and pleased Christian voters by having the evangelical preacher Rick Warren deliver the invocation at his inauguration. “This is a president who gave really compelling speeches about faith and values, memorable stuff,” said the Rev. Dr. David P. Gushee, a professor of Christian ethics at Mercer University who has advised Mr. Obama on religious matters. “And you’re not hearing that voice right now.”

The White House says the public — and the press — are not listening. Since taking office, Mr. Obama has given six speeches either from a church pulpit or addressing religion in public life — including an Easter prayer breakfast where he “offered a very personal and candid reflection of what the Resurrection means to him,” said Joshua DuBois, who runs the White House Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships.

But the Easter address attracted scant attention in the news media. And the fact that the Obama family has not joined a church in Washington — the president has said his presence would be too disruptive — has not helped, because the public rarely sees images of them attending services.

The White House says Mr. Obama prays daily, sometimes in person or over the telephone with a small circle of Christian pastors. One of them, the Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell, who was also a spiritual adviser to former President George W. Bush, telephoned a reporter on Wednesday, at the White House’s behest. He said he was surprised that the number of Americans who say Mr. Obama is Muslim is growing. “I must say,” Mr. Caldwell said, “never in the history of modern-day presidential politics has a president confessed his faith in the Lord, and folks basically call him a liar.”

[watercolors]

52. This debate is sensless and stupid.

What ever he believes is his personal information, one does not have to broadcast their beliefs. I think he is an honest man with high moral ideas as to how he wants to lead this country. It does not matter what faith or spirit he is part of! Get a life man!

[H2O Man]

53. And he was

born in Iran.

[david13]

54. Quite possible. Maybe. dc

[alcibiades_mystery]

59. Come on, dude

Anyone with a few working brain cells is secretly an atheist who knows you have to play along with the God Squad to avoid looking like a bad person. Clinton was an atheist. Hell, I'll bet Dubya was an atheist.

This is ridiculous.

[TheKentuckian]

96. That is bullshit and yeah bigoted. Teh Gawd is fer teh stoopid

Bigots all around. Not much difference between your sort and Pat Robertson's for unbridled arrogance and self congratulations for the superiority of your personal set of beliefs.

[alcibiades_mystery]

106. Whatevs, man

[TheKentuckian]

152. Atheist don't get a bigot exception even if it is generated by vanity

[onenote]

60. How much did you drink before posting this drivel?

I'd love to see your explanation of the "demographic" evidence that suggests Obama isn't a Christian because he went to Harvard Law School. Admittedly, there is a higher percentage of white Jewish students at Harvard than African Americans, so maybe you're right. He's not an African American Christian, he's a white Jew.

[madmom]

61. So? I would be quite happy if he weren't so gullible as to believe in fairy tales.

[proteus_lives]

71. And people wonder why atheists won't be seeing the oval office anytime soon.

:eyes:

[madmom]

81. Why because we're honest? How awful!!!

:eyes: see I can roll my eyes too

[proteus_lives]

83. Yeah, that's what I was talking about.

:eyes:

[madmom]

99. Must have been, because that's all I said was my HONEST opinion. But because it

was different than yours it was automatically considered wrong. Again:eyes:

[proteus_lives]

100. Projecting and overly-defensive. How surprising.

But not really.

[cleanhippie]

134. You mean about yourself projecting and being overly defensive?

You are right, not surprising.

[madmom]

169. Stating my opinion and it being different from yours is my being overly defensive and projecting, ok

now I understand why people are so confused, I thought everyone had the right to an opinion, whether they agreed or not.:eyes:

[cleanhippie]

132. And people wonder why believers in fairy tales hold high offices.

:eyes:

[proteus_lives]

141. And people wonder why atheists aren't taken seriously for high office.

:eyes:

[cleanhippie]

143. And people wonder why believers are taken seriously.

:eyes:

[City Lights]

64. I wish he was an agnostic or atheist.

Not seeing it though.

[proteus_lives]

66. So smart people aren't religious?

Fail.

[pipi_k]

72. I don't think that's the point at all...

Instead, I think the point is that religious people aren't necessarily more "moral", and "moral" people aren't necessarily religious.

Too many Americans still believe there's a connection between morality and religion and that's why someone who may secretly hold Agnostic/Atheistic views might want...or need...to do a bit of fudging in order to get elected to the Presidency.

Then again, it would still have to be the "right" religion, wouldn't it.


No Atheists, Agnostics, or "Muslins" allowed in this country!!! Rah rah rah and all that happy Patriotic horseshit...

:eyes:

[proteus_lives]

88. Maybe but it still smells.

Like that same old "My view is the right one" BS that so many atheists ironically complain about it.

[dmallind]

111. Never heard too many atheists complain about that

We complain about Xians using laws to enforce their opinions on the rest of us. Being rational types for the most part we generally assume people believe their opinions are right, or they would change them. It's not the opinions of Xians atheists tend to worry about, it's their hegemony.

[cleanhippie]

138. Can you point to anyone here stating that?

Really, can you show where any atheist/agnostic has stated that?

[pipi_k]

151. I know just as many Atheists who don't think their view is the only right one...

And really, to be fair, I think that many who do claim their views are the only "right" ones do it in reaction to what they see from the religious nuts.

Which isn't really productive.

Personally, I don't advertise my views or try to convert others to my doubts or disbelief. Doesn't really bother me what people want to believe as long as they're not trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us.

Yeah, I do sometimes roll my eyes a bit when I hear the "God this" and "Jesus that", but I just figure if it helps them deal with life, then whatever...

[proteus_lives]

156. Not too many of those atheists on this thread.

I don't advertise my beliefs either.

It the way the world works, you're rolling your eyes at their beliefs, they're rolling their eyes at yours.

[DevonRex]

95. I could buy that if it weren't for the fact that the OP thinks Obama taught at Harvard.

Harvard is thought of as an evil, liberal institution by the RWers. I know because all my family are RWers. I'm sure you've run across folks who have that point of view, as well. We all have. It's silly, but that's what they think.

I wish that all people could be free to believe or not believe, including our elected officials. I'm right with you there. I just have a funny feeling about this, though.

And btw, I appreciated your thoughts on that other thread, too, about the mother and kids. I really hate the beginning of stories like that when there's not enough information. But you made some very good points. :hi:

[immoderate]

92. Statistics would tend to support that notion.

--imm

[proteus_lives]

94. Statistics can be made to support anything.

I've never encountered any evidence that atheists were smarter then religious people.

[immoderate]

107. Not exactly, but there are correlations with levels of education.

Then you would have to make the stretch that more educated people are smarter. I admit that it only shows a trend and does not apply well in individual cases.

--imm

[cleanhippie]

140. Thats because you haven't looked. Here is some for you.

http://inventorspot.com/articles/study_equates_higher_iq_liberal_atheist_and_monogamous_values_38259

[proteus_lives]

154. Liberals and the monogamous.

Well, I fit into two of those labels.

One study doesn't convince me. I prefer real-world experience. And that experience tells me that faith or lack their of isn't a indicator of intelligence.

[DevonRex]

98. ...

:rofl:

Just to clarify, I wasn't :rofl: in an agreeing sort of way.

[cleanhippie]

135. Is that what was stated? Are you projecting again?

Fail.

[proteus_lives]

142. Sad.

It must be sad not to be able to accept the beliefs of others.

And yeah, that's what he said.

[cleanhippie]

145. You are projecting again.

Where did I ever state that I do not accept the beliefs of others?

[karynnj]

76. You are rather wrong here - he never taught at Harvard

Not to mention, it is very likely that the majority of professors at Harvard attend churches, synagogues or mosques. I am not going to say that they are not truthful in doing so. You are speculating based on your own value system.

Obama taught at the University of Chicago.

[DevonRex]

82. Flame bait. "The guy" did not teach at Harvard. Democrats know this.

I call it as I see it and this is bullshit.

[DevonRex]

85. Obama was born in the deep depths of Mordor, too.

:rofl:

[proteus_lives]

93. Does that make Biden the Witch-King of Angmar?

:rofl:

[DevonRex]

97. I guess it does. Now isn't that just the cutest thing ever?

:evilgrin:

[Bluenorthwest]

90. The Obama family does not practice what they preach at GLBT

And that is just a simple fact. He may or may not 'believe' things, but in terms of adherence to the teachings they find so very important for others to live by, they very obviously reject large segments of teachings that apply to themselves, and take a few words by the exact same Biblical authors and pontificate upon them as if they were the very path to salvation. 'St.' Paul is the guy they quote about teh gay, New Testament wise. Paul spent lots of time on the subject of how women in the faith should behave, how they should dress, whom they should and should not address in public, whom they are allowed to ask questions of (just the husband) and it flatly forbids the wearing of costly garments or any 'array' that is mean to draw attention to a woman's beauty. The woman is to be subservient to men, submissive to her husband, silent in the gatherings, and covered at all times. The Obamas clearly do not 'believe' this stuff enough to follow it, or to make a rationalization as to why they are permitted to select a few from an assortment of rules, and are also permitted to select the rules others must live by. They simply do not live according to the rules the set for others, and this makes 'belief' irrelevant. They are hypocrites no matter. They do not walk the talk, they want me to walk it for them, while they go shopping for fine array for Michelle's speaking engagements.
I agree that they should reject Paul on Women. But it then follows, automatically that the rest of those rules be rejected at will by others who make the same choices Michelle and Barack make.
Then there are the claims of being 'Pragmatists' and of course, that is a philosophy that denies the unseen, and finds value in results only. Ends justifies the means, and that sure is not the Bible song.
They are like people eating a lobster dinner while claiming to be Kosher, and demanding that you put down the pork to please them. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Jennicut]

91. I go to church, I am a Christian, my husband is a church organist. Some days I believe

and some days I am very skeptical of all religions. That is kind of what having a belief in faith is like. And why discussions on religion are so idiotically stupid most of the time. Religion is deeply, deeply personal. It is not the same for everyone and every person has a different level of belief. My husband and I go through the bible and say that most of the stuff in there HAS to be metaphor. In every day life, I don't say much about my religion either. As it should be. Because he is President, all eyes are on him and Obama seems to want to keep some parts of his life private. So be it. I also tend to look at other religions as simply slightly different versions of each other. It all goes toward a belief in a higher being. As for being agnostic or atheist, I have done that too before I met my husband. I was not baptized until I was 25. Freedom of religion, freedom to not believe in it. One aspect of America that should never change.

[w8liftinglady]

101. I agree.

I have seen things that defy traditional explanation in my work,and have to believe there is someone,something beyond us.

[Steely_Dan]

103. Just Curious...

What was it specifically that allowed you to accept a religion once you met your husband and not before?

-P

[Jennicut]

182. I was always curious. I vacillated between an atheist and an agnostic. And frankly,

I went to a Catholic Church once one day with a friend in high school and was turned off by it, way too formal and stiff for me. One thing that is important is I was never forced to pick a religion, my parents went to churches as kids but let me choose. I was not interested until I met my husband. He asked me to go with him as he worked at a church. It was a very liberal, open minded church. A Lutheran church and laid back. I became good friends with the Pastor. I just started talking to him more and more and some things changed. I became baptized before I got married. I love the church I go to. Very child friendly, they have women Pastors fill in when the main Pastor is not around. Like I said, it is just personal.

[Steely_Dan]

200. Thanks....n/t

I'm always curious about such things.

-Paige

[Sheepshank]

105. I only care if he uses 'god' to justify war, hate, and personal megalomania

one of the scariest videos I've seen on the net is on of Palin claiming that God is endorsing her political actions. Taliban anyone?

[krabigirl]

112. He goes to a Ucc. They are very liberal. Also, i am so glad he doesn't blather on about his faith.

However, what you said about intelligent people not being religious was insulting. I am not religious at all, but there are many educated people who are.

[Posteritatis]

116. ITT, an OP treats a third of the human population as a monolith. (nt)

[Desertrose]

133. Your "buying " or "not buying", doesn't change what is.

And Obama is the only one who knows anyway.

Why should it matter to you...or anyone really?

[Taverner]

136. A Christian is someone who emulates Christ

By this definition, you could have someone who is an Atheist and a Christian...

[Solomon]

166. Bingo. You said what I was trying to say in a much more

sucinct way. :thumbsup:

[alfredo]

139. A "social Christian" not a believing Christian?

But he does seem to know the bible.

[RandomThoughts]

146. From personal experiance, you have to have the oil in you.

And for me.

I know the verses I learned when young, and know parts have been changed.



So personally I know that there have been major changes to reality.

Although I have pondered, if they are changed only when I read them, and changed back when other people read them, or if they have been changed for everyone. I also ponder if anyone else noticed.

Basically it could be that if I read a changed verse, or posted it, other people would read it in its original form, then it could say something I did not intent to mean when posting it. Although if that happened then it would not matter what I post anyways. Since such modification of what I intent to post and what is read would be something blocking what I intend to say from being heard. In the same way changes to text can try to keep other thoughts from being read by me. But it is really interesting and for me proves reality changes.

It is a deep topic and goes to what is reality, and if everyone is in the same reality.

[alfredo]

150. Where's RD Laing when we need him? Each of us has

a reality filter of our own construct, just as we all have a "god" of our construct.

[lunamagica]

144. There are also TONS of stupid, ignorant people who are atheists

I'm reminded of a guy I knew who thought of himself as brilliant. His proof of it was that he too intelligent to believe in God. He wasn't educated (hadn't even finished high school), he wasn't creative, he wasn't well-read; but in his mind being atheist was enough to bee seen as having a Superior intellect.

I know just as many ignorant people who are atheists as I know believers.

I don't know any Harvard professors, but I've been around plenty of doctors who are brilliant, some from Ivy League school who believe in God.

Atheism in itself is no proof of intelligence, even though many people think it is.

[LAGC]

194. I would disagree.

Belief in religion is belief in organized ignorance. By believing in religion, you are in fact closing your mind to other possibilities as to how the universe came about and our place in it. Believers claim to "know" the "truth", when in fact all they often have is a select group of MEN(who invented the religion)'s theory about how it all began, and all the dogma that goes along with it.

Studies have shown that atheists, on average, have higher IQ's than believers. You have to have a knack for inquiry and skepticism and a desire to learn more about the world to be a dis-believer in this overly religious culture of ours.

[lunamagica]

204. Then, Larry King is more intelligent than Jimmy Carter by virtue of being an atheist?

Madalyn Mays (who couldn't pass the bar exam) is more intelligent than Dr.Francis S. Collins (who directed The Human Genome Project), because he believes in God and she doesn't?

are/were Franklin D Roosevelt, MLK, Ted Kennedy, Martin Nowak (who BTW, teaches at Harvard) of inferior intellect than King and Mays based on the fact that the last two are atheists?

[LAGC]

205. If Bush was any testament...

You don't particularly need to have a strong intellect to be President or a charismatic leader.

[Bluerthanblue]

207. +1000

:hi:

[Bluerthanblue]

147. and the irony of this is, it doesn't matter what you 'buy'- or what anyone

else 'believes' about Pres. Obama's faith. What a person 'believes' the things that influence and guide their view of world aren't "ours" to label or judge.

George Bush calls himself a 'Christian'- but I've never seen much of the teachings of "Christ" in his words or deeds.

What IS a "Christian" anyway? How a person answers that question is more important than the question itself I believe.

:hi:

[grantcart]

155. Most Christians, Muslims and Jews are agnostic to a degree

If they weren't there would be a lot more holy wars than there are today.

It should be a basic human right to call yourself a Christian, or a follower of any religion, without having to publicly define exactly what you agree with, what you don't and what you are unsure of.

Deconstructing a person's religious beliefs is extremely patronizing. In the President's case he doesn't simply attend Church he also says that he participates in daily prayer. The President, like everyone else, should have the right to publicly declare his faith without having it deonstructed publicly.

[4lbs]

159. Other than the fact that he was a member of the Trinity United Church of Christ for almost 20 years

before declaring his candidacy.

Where do you think Reverend Jeremiah Wright came from, and how he knew Barack Obama?

Reverend Wright was the pastor of that Church when Obama regularly attended.


A true agnostic abstains from going to church unless it's for a special occasion.

I'm agnostic and in the past 30 years, have been in a church less than 10 times. Usually for a wedding or a funeral. One baptism too.

[DevonRex]

164. Well, I believe you just wanted to put that headline out there.

Kinda looks like you think he might be a Muslim if that's all the person reads, ya know?

So, sorry, but I'm just stating my personal belief about your headline. Hope that's okay with you.

[bluestateguy]

167. You do know that Harvard was a school set up to prepare men for the ministry?

While secular on paper, it still retains a trace of that ancestry.

[Deep13]

173. That was 300 years ago. nt

[Sea Witch]

203. The Harvard Divinity School is still open.

Still training ministers and teaching theology.

[butterfly77]

168. Would you ..

even question it if he were caucasian? And what if he were what is suppose to happen is it bias toward countries just like we have had for years towards christian countries.

[SoCalDem]

172. I don;t even want to KNOW what religion people practice.. That should be PRIVATE

I am sick-to-death of all the politicians who are forced into being "a godly person" just so a bunch of hyper-religious wahoos will "identify" with them..


Why should anyone be forced into admitting that they believe in mystical mythology that's been spun into a money-making scheme-of-the-millenia, just to secure a thankless job that's all but impossible to even do these days?

"Regligion", as we have all come to know it, probably was "invented" as a way to come to terms with death of loved ones. No one wants to believe that our dearly-departed just died & now must be put in the dirt. It's comforting to some to "believe" that there's an afterlife where we will be re-united.

It also comes in handy when the more educated in a society can claim to have an inside track to special "knowlege", and can manipulate the unwashed masses into compliance, or fealty.

If individuals or families want to believe in their special stuff, fine..but I sure wish we did not have to HIRE our country's leaders based on their worship qualities:(

[alfredo]

176. I don't give a fuck. As long as he does his job, it doesn't matter.

[obxhead]

177. I would say: Who gives a fuck anyway.

Belief in one unproven god over another is just belief in an unproven god. It gives no credibility to how well that person can do the job.

[Orsino]

178. When *every* goddamned politician has to gasp out a declaration of faith to get elected...

...such claims are meaningless. President Obama's have been vanilla enough that I just assume that his churchgoing is political expedience--and not all cynical, either, as churches are centers of the communities he built a career out of boosting.

But it is a pose, to some extent, as are his protestations about the need for discrimination in marriage rights.

I can't read his mind, but ask me again when thumpin' the Good Book isn't a nearly-absolute prerequisite for holding public office.

[BlueCheese]

179. I wouldn't be surprised.

I think there must be a lot of politicians who claim they're Christian because they know how much harder it is to get elected as an atheist or agnostic. The reason I suspect Obama might be one of them is because of his campaign remarks about people who "cling to religion". That struck me as something an atheist thinks and says (being an atheist myself).

It's not much of a reach, either. A lot of people, even his staunchest defenders, say he really supports gay marriage but won't say so publicly because of the political consequences. I suspect the same is true for a lot of prominent Democrats and even some Republicans.

Having said that, I don't really care what faith Obama follows, if any, as long as it doesn't unduly influence his policies. I really wish he hadn't used God as a reason to oppose gay marriage.

[mr blur]

181. Why do you folks even care?

What does it matter which fantasy figure he claims to believe in? You know he couldn't have got elected without some profession of belief. The scary thing is that it's deemed of any importance.

I'd have a lot more respect if he admitted to being an atheist.

[bigwillq]

184. I care

because of the fact that OBAMA used his religion as an excuse to say that he doesn't believe in gay marriage, which, essentially, makes him against EQUAL RIGHTS for ALL people.

I don't agree with the OP's conspiracy theory but I care about what religion Obama claims to be when he uses that religion to discriminate against his fellow citizens.

[JI7]

212. it's politics, you htink he could win if he came out as Atheist ?

even if everything else about his positions and his talent were there ?

[seabeyond]

189. why? so people could come on and bash christians talking about their fantasy figure

and any other derogatory comment they chose cause it just feels so good to be superior to others.

[RagAss]

183. I don't give a fucking shit what fairy tale politicians follow...just fix this broken country !

[flvegan]

187. I'm amazed that this many DUers even give a shit about it.

[B Calm]

193. I'm like you, I could care less.

[GSLevel9]

191. you are 100% correct... I have no doubt. nt

[seabeyond]

192. you just "know" he is a muslim, huh? nt

[Hekate]

195. Harvard Law School is a hotbed of atheism? Who knew?

[Hekate]

201. Personally, I am so grateful that Obama, aside from answering a direct question...

... has bucked the recent trend of politicians blathering on about how much the Lord has done for them. It used to be that US Presidents maintained a decent and modest reticence about their religious beliefs.

Obama was raised by a mother and grandparents who were agnostic and more focused on doing what's right in this world than in fretting about the next one. He, like his mother, approaches life cerebrally. It's not his nature to talk about religion publicly in any extensive manner.

Obama wrote Dreams from My Father as a self-examination LONG BEFORE he ever entered politics, and his experience of finding a "home" within the Black community was part of it.

Whether he attends church every Sunday, or like MOST Americans sleeps in or spends time with his family, is none of anyone's business and should not lead to speculation that he is not "really" this, that, or the other thing.

Hekate

[pitohui]

202. how is that any diff from dumbya?

nobody in the reality based universe thinks "w" believes in god but it is polite to pretend to believe he's a methodist because we live in the country we live in

most people extend me the courtesy of pretending to believe i'm a christian even tho i haven't been to church in decades because it's the polite thing to do

why don't we extend the same courtesy to obama?

because he's black, at the end of the day, that's what it comes down, people are being rude and disrespectful to the black dude in the way they wouldn't be toward the white dude

do you really think nixon still believed as a quaker etc. by the time he made it to president? do you think reagan did -- hell reagan was doing good to remember his own name by 1987...

[glen123098]

208. I don't know if its true for Obama, but its true for a lotta politicians.

Non religious people make up 15 percent of the population, but there is only 1 non religious senator or congressman out of 535. I don't buy it.

[nemo137]

209. In R/T, there is (or at least used to be) a rule

"If someone says he/she is a Christian/Atheist/Muslim/Buddhist/etc, then he/she is a Christian/Atheist/Muslim/Buddhist."

[scarface2004]

210. obama really worships the f s m!!!

he will be coming clean on this tomorrow!

[LAGC]

211. Wouldn't it be something if Obama did "come out" as a skeptic though?

That he was having second thoughts about his faith? Imagine how far he could promote the cause of non-belief and free inquiry, by setting a presidential example...

[otohara]

213. Rush?

stop projecting

[Canuckistanian]

214. Here's the first draft of the WH statement

"Obama is NOT a scary Muslim jihadist, so STOP SAYING THAT"