The truth is that the Iraq is worse off now than it was before

[malaise]

the illegal war and invasion.

[Botany]

1. Who needs

roads
schools
running water
homes
doctors
jobs
markets

[GeorgeGist]

11. Forget something? Who needs ...

government.

[malaise]

16. or electricity

or infrastructure or your dead relatives

[Donnachaidh]

2. didn't the oil barons just get signed to run the oil fields?

So the mission objective was filled, wasn't it? :sarcasm:

[Bandit]

3. And you believe anyone in America cares.....why?

Iraq was a Secular Nation with a Westernized approach. Women were treated equal in every manner as were all religions. In fact it was because of religious extremists that Saddam obtained his reputation for brutality. He simply would not tolerate it. Saddam's great mistake was believing America. He was betrayed for the oil under his country and Iraq will continue to suffer for it for many decades to come.

[Mudoria]

19. Ask the Kurds about Saddam's benevolence......

or the Iranians for that matter. Or even, if you could talk to the dead, those Iraqi's marched out of the government building and summarily executed without a trial when he seized power. The world became a one asshole less when he did the air dance. Iraq in the long run will be better off....

[david13]

36. The only problem is ... what do you mean by 'the long run'? 100 years? dc

[ThomCat]

4. All that was accomplished was that Halliburton is getting the oil contract

and will get to keep far more of the profits than they would have before, when Iraq was an actual sovereign nation that controlled their own natural resources.

It only took NINE YEARS (9) of constant war, Trillions of Dollars, and an entire nation destroyed to accomplish.

We will Never know how many Americans were killed, between service members and contractors/mercenaries. Especially counting the Suicides that will be covered up and ignored.

We will Never know how many tens or hundreds of thousands of Americans are permanently injured or disabled because of this war.

We will never know how many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were really killed. Nobody was keeping count.

But we might someday know approximately how many millions of Iraqis were permanently injured or disabled by this war. While the Pentagon certain will never, ever count all of our wounded, I'm sure some major international organization will do a research survey of all the damage among the survivors in Iraq at some point and publish the results.

Does ANYBODY think this war was worth all of this carnage and damage, just so Halliburton can sign an oil contract from the puppet government with a better rate than they could have negotiated with Saddam Husein? Anybody?

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. It took a lot more than 9 years.

The only reason Bush The Elder didn't "finish the job" in 91 was because it happened so quickly that his oil buddies weren't prepared to cash in on it. It took all the Clinton years of sanctions, constant tensions and low grade warfare, the creation of the PNAC, moving Darth Cheney into Haliburton to lay the groundwork, and then the selection of Bush The Younger to put Rummy into Defense, to create the entire contractor system that Halliburton and KBR and Blackwater utilized.

Who ever said that Bush The Elder had a problem with 'this vision thing'?

[ThomCat]

7. Unfortunately, that's true.

The no-fly zone alone that was in place since the end of the first Gulf War until the beginning of this one, and the years of sanctions, together did a hell of a lot of damage. :(

And, you are right that this could not have happened without a lot of the setup that happened for years beforehand.

[malaise]

18. Nice post n/t

[Blue Owl]

6. In the end, seems like it was just a big money laundering operation

With big payouts going to private contractors, corrupt big oil execs, and lord knows who else.

I hope those sick fucks are enjoying their blood money.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

8. It is a HELLUVA lot worse for women there --

:( Hussein was a bully tyrant but he kept the Islamic crazies in line and created a secular, modern society.

[ThomCat]

20. Isn't that absolutely Insane?

In the run up to the war, one of the justifications was that Saddam was so brutal to women with all of his Rape prisons. Yet we have created a worse life for the women in Iraq. Many, many more women, and men, have been raped by OUR forces than were raped by Sadamn's forces.

We were a hell of a lot more organized about it, doing it to entire communities of people as a routine form of interrogation and torture. :cry:

We had many, many more soldiers, CIA agents, and mercenaries doing it, not just a few brothers and one units of soldiers.

And on top of the mass reproduction of rape rooms in prisons everywhere we went throughout Iraq, we also drove millions of Iraqis into homelessness. How many women were driven into Prostitution in order to survive?

Women in Iraq will be cursing the US for many generations. :(

[malaise]

21. But a US magazine shows a female victim from Afghanistan

to justify staying in Afghanistan. Either you laugh or you cry since we sure didn't protect women in Iraq - Indeed Bushco turned them back about 100 years.

[ThomCat]

25. They did this right after a pentagon produced a report saying that

women in Afghanistan could be used in a PR offensive to convince Americans to support continued war efforts. Surprise!

So that article in US magazine was produced right on time by people paid for by the Pentagon to convince all of us that we absolutely need to stay and kill more people in Afghanistan, including more women! Yay!

:(

[malaise]

28. Well I don't read their propaganda crap

so all I saw was the cover and I could show them women burned by their own men with acid that look worse right here in Jamaica.

[Greyhound]

9. Remember what a "terrible idea" partitioning was?

Mass-slaughter has proven to be so much better, and "nobody could've predicted" this outcome.
:sarcasm:
:kick: & R

edit to get it on 'my DU'.

[Greyhound]

10. OK, replying to my own post to get it on 'My DU'.

I hate that bug and it has lived for far too long.

[NNN0LHI]

12. Its the parentheses you put around 'terrible idea' in your first post that goofs it up

[Greyhound]

13. Hmm, "testing". n/t

That worked, but thank you for trying.

It happens fairly infrequently, but is still annoying.

[NNN0LHI]

17. It doesn't do it every time. Just often enough to aggravate you

Try it on a new thread you start some time. Seems like all those mess up.

I have just changed to using the 'single' bracket and I have not experienced the problem any more.

Don

[Greyhound]

22. Thanks, I'm going to try that. n/t

[rug]

14. So is the U.S.

[malaise]

23. Absolutely but hubby told me on that sad Tuesday September 11th 2001

that the America we knew and loved would never return.

[bigtree]

15. of course it is

[malaise]

24. Bushco fucked up this planet

in ways I could not have imagined.

[BlueCheese]

26. It's not that simple.

In many ways--perhaps most ways--Iraq is worse off than before. But some things are better than before--the biggest being that Saddam Hussein and his genocidal regime are gone. Does that mean the invasion was a good idea? No, not at all. Just that some good things came out of it.

The same is true of Afghanistan, and was true of Vietnam. A lot of people stand to suffer if the US pulls out of Afghanistan, and a lot of South Vietnamese really did suffer after the US withdrawal there. It doesn't mean that withdrawal isn't the right thing to do, but it's not as clear cut as that.

[malaise]

29. For the record Bush killed more Iraqis than Saddam

Not one good thing came out of the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq - not one fugging good thing.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. Where do you get that figure from?

And are you sure you're comparing equivalent numbers - I kind of suspect you may be comparing "all the deaths that could possibly be attributed to indirect consequences of Bush's actions" to "people who were actually killed by Saddam Hussein's soldiers"?

If you mean "more Iraqis have died in the past 9 years than would have if Bush had not invaded" then the answer is "very probably, but not certainly", but that's a rather different claim.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

27. Watching "Mosaic" the other night

I heard an Iraqi on the street say, "they took out a strong government and left one that is not in control" and another, younger man say, "let them leave, we don't want them here, what else do they want from us?" -- it sure wasn't happy talk.

[malaise]

30. I have to buy that on DVD

whenever it's available.

[EFerrari]

35. It's a news show and you can stream it. Link:

http://www.linktv.org/mosaic

ETA: It's on m-f, and it's just a compilation of video clips from all over the Middle East. On weekends, the Jamal Dajani does "Mosaic Intelligence Report", a program that is opinion.

[malaise]

37. Thanks very much for that

:hi:

[EFerrari]

39. When I first started watching, it was off-putting

because culturally, it was so foreign. But that passed and now I look forward to getting the perspective offered there. We are teachable! lol :)

[blindpig]

33. Yes

War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again, y'all

War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

Ohhh, war, I despise
Because it means destruction
Of innocent lives

War means tears
To thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
And lose their lives

I said, war, huh
Good God, y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, it ain't nothing
But a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Ooooh, war
It's an enemy to all mankind
The point of war blows my mind
War has caused unrest
Within the younger generation
Induction then destruction
Who wants to die
Aaaaah, war-huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it, say it, say it
War, huh
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all
War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, it's got one friend
That's the undertaker
Ooooh, war, has shattered
Many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled, bitter and mean
Life is much to short and precious
To spend fighting wars these days
War can't give life
It can only take it away

Ooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me

War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Peace, love and understanding
Tell me, is there no place for them today
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way

Ooooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
You tell me
Say it, say it, say it, say it

War, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Stand up and shout it
Nothing

Yep, and the motivation in theses modern times is always the same, PROFITS.

[Lost4words]

34. big time,

[Amonester]

38. shhh... we are asked to believe the new truth

and move forward... (to where?)