Defining "Women" -- need help with a project

[nashville_brook]

I'm involved in a women's group that had their first meeting last night. We're mostly a social service organization, donating and volunteering en masse for local women's crisis operations, while serving as a support network for members' individual projects.

This inspiration for the group came when one of the women looked up the definition of woman for use in a personal project. She Googled. And what she found was inadequate at best; and bizarre, if not insulting if you thought about it for very long:

Google
Definitions of woman on the Web:
-- an adult female person (as opposed to a man); "the woman kept house while the man hunted"
-- a female person who plays a significant role (wife or mistress or girlfriend) in the life of a particular man; "he was faithful to his woman"
-- charwoman: a human female employed to do housework; "the char will clean the carpet"; "I have a woman who comes in four hours a day while I write"
-- womanhood: women as a class; "it's an insult to American womanhood"; "woman is the glory of creation"; "the fair sex gathered on the veranda"

It occurred to her that this definition didn't suit any woman that she knows, and so she put the question to the group -- which I am putting to you, my DU friends -- How would you change or improve this definition.

What do you consider to be the defining characteristics of "women." For example, if the archaic "charwoman" can be the third in Google's list of womanly definitions, what would you replace it with?

What characteristics of "women" do you believe have been lost in this definition. We need adjectives and stories and broad philosophical rants. No editing -- just brainstorm.

Thanks in advance!! -- brook

[OneGrassRoot]

1. I don't have an answer right now, but I think it's a fascinating question...

So, K&R!

:hi:

[nashville_brook]

5. i know, right? i've been thinking about this for a while before our meeting, and

i really don't know where to start. i had two years of women's studies, too. i feel like if i open MY gates, it will be all regurgitated stuff from college, and i don't know how useful that is.

[femrap]

44. I found this which might be

interesting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/15/girls-boys-think-same-way

Of course the MSM in the US wouldn't discuss this.

[nashville_brook]

46. this is exactly why thinking about the definition is a critical task. b/c, lets say that

for the sake of discussion here, most people say that a good definition is "an adult human with two X chromosomes." that's great, except it ignores all the existing definitions that we don't have much say in putting forth. what's coming to mind here are the really negative objectifying definitions (whores, bitches). then, there's the bourgeois shit that we deal with in the workplace...that women are less capable than men b/c we're (supposedly) less bloodthirsty, or aggressive. and therefore less effective.

from the article...i LOVE this:

Thus boys develop improved spatial skills not because of an innate superiority but because they are expected and are encouraged to be strong at sport, which requires expertise at catching and throwing. Similarly, it is anticipated that girls will be more emotional and talkative, and so their verbal skills are emphasised by teachers and parents.

my SO...he's gonna read this, so i have to be nice...he doesn't do maps. spatial skills -- not his strong suit. language skills? he can talk anyone under the table. he can sense vibes in a room. he can address large groups of people with no fear. i'm saying, he totally overthrows the gender bias here. it's just a damn good thing that i do too when it comes to spatial skills or else we'd always be lost.

:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

2. define men.

man, adult male (an adult person who is male (as opposed to a woman)) "there were two women and six men on the bus"
•S: (n) serviceman, military man, man, military personnel (someone who serves in the armed forces; a member of a military force) "two men stood sentry duty"
•S: (n) man (the generic use of the word to refer to any human being) "it was every man for himself"
•S: (n) homo, man, human being, human (any living or extinct member of the family Hominidae characterized by superior intelligence, articulate speech, and erect carriage) •S: (n) man (a male subordinate) "the chief stationed two men outside the building"; "he awaited word from his man in Havana"
•S: (n) man (an adult male person who has a manly character (virile and courageous competent)) "the army will make a man of you"
•S: (n) valet, valet de chambre, gentleman, gentleman's gentleman, man (a manservant who acts as a personal attendant to his employer) "Jeeves was Bertie Wooster's man"
•S: (n) man (a male person who plays a significant role (husband or lover or boyfriend) in the life of a particular woman) "she takes good care of her man"
man, piece (game equipment consisting of an object used in playing certain board games) "he taught me to set up the men on the chess board"; "he sacrificed a piece to get a strategic advantage
world, human race, humanity, humankind, human beings, humans, mankind, man (all of the living human inhabitants of the earth) "all the world loves a lover"; "she always used `humankind' because `mankind' seemed to slight the women"
•S: (n) work force, workforce, manpower, hands, men (the force of workers available)


look at the two definitions next to each other. the only definition for man that has to do with woman, the woman SERVES him. all other definition has nothing to do with women.

all definitions of women is link to her service to man

[OneGrassRoot]

3. I noticed that, too, seabeyond...

I went to the definition for "goddess" but didn't get anything helpful there.

The difference is VERY interesting though.

:hi:

[nashville_brook]

4. totally agree. notice how *active* these words are...

just to look at this from angle:

serviceman
manpower
make a man of you

[seabeyond]

6. define female and male

Noun
•S: (n) female (an animal that produces gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes (spermatozoa)) •S: (n) female, female person (a person who belongs to the sex that can have babies) Adjective
•S: (adj) female (being the sex (of plant or animal) that produces fertilizable gametes (ova) from which offspring develop) "a female heir"; "female holly trees bear the berries"
•S: (adj) female, distaff (characteristic of or peculiar to a woman) "female sensitiveness"; "female suffrage"
•S: (adj) female (for or pertaining to or composed of women or girls) "the female lead in the play"; "a female chorus


Noun
•S: (n) male (an animal that produces gametes (spermatozoa) that can fertilize female gametes (ova)) •S: (n) male, male person (a person who belongs to the sex that cannot have babies) •S: (n) Male (the capital of Maldives in the center of the islands) Adjective
•S: (adj) male (being the sex (of plant or animal) that produces gametes (spermatozoa) that perform the fertilizing function in generation) "a male infant"; "a male holly tree"
•S: (adj) male, manful, manlike, manly, virile (characteristic of a man) "a deep male voice"; "manly sports"
•S: (adj) male (for or pertaining to or composed of men or boys) "the male lead"; "the male population"



at least in the definition of female and male we get our own identity

[nashville_brook]

7. true that -- and I think there's ideas here that can be applied to "woman" -- such as

the "sex that can have babies." The root notion is bearing creative powers (?). Sure, it takes two to tango, but there's a dual sense of burden and responsibility for the woman. and, i'm using the word "burden" as borrowed from Christianity, and in terms of bear the burden. this is one that is plenty ripe to be turned on its head.

[seabeyond]

8. that is one of the intersting, out of many interesting. in woman

tending toward nurturer is not even mentioned. or communicator. or gatherer. ect...

[nashville_brook]

9. "mother of invention" -- b/c women are charged with caring for people, we've

become incredible inventors and engineers of stuff that's totally forgotten. milling grain comes to mind. cooking was one of the first forms of "engineering" b/c we had to find ways to use foodstuff in a manner that wouldn't kill us.

how about midwifery? and healthcare? women often held the position of healer in earlier cultures, since healing was intwined with plant knowledge.

[seabeyond]

10. sigh....

since becoming a mom, i have decided i am doctor, psychiatrist, pharmacist, coach, teacher, nutritionist, manager, housekeeper, cook, and i don't know what else.

[nashville_brook]

11. pharmacist -- something my aunt said that has always stuck with me,

every mother needs an ample supply of tetracycline and benedryl. as my guardian at the time, she was treating me for a bee sting. i had jumped off the trampoline right onto a bee, and started to get a larger allergic reaction. she put baking soda on the sting to draw out the toxin, and gave me a benedryl to stop the swelling and treat the hives.

seems like she alway had tetracycline(low-dose antibiotic) around the house, but i never really needed it. my older cousin Jimmy was always getting cut and scraped (skateboarder), so i'm guessing she'd had her fair share of treating minor skin infections. if it had been up to him he'd just put duct tape on it until his arm fell off.

[immune]

12. Please consider this aspect of womanhood in your studies ...

http://russellmeans.blogspot.com/2006/11/comments-on-patriarchy-vis-vis.html

[nashville_brook]

15. Endurance! -- not finished reading it, but "endurance" is jumping out at me, big time!

[immune]

17. I'm not familiar with "endurance"

could you expound on it, please.

[nashville_brook]

21. just a line from the link, and kind of a throwaway...

"Women live longer than men can endure more pain and therefore have more endurance than men."

i just watched a documentary on cannabis and how it's used in the brain. we all have special receptors in the brain that are keyholes for cannabinoids. and we know that women use these receptors in childbirth. the receptor is important for forgetting...like, one way to lessen pain is make it so you can't remember it...which is what this receptor does.

[immune]

22. Ahhh ...

I thought you were referring to a book I may have missed. Sorry.

[nashville_brook]

23. here's some paragraphs from the link (awesome stuff, btw!)

the writer is Lakota:

My People, Lakota, also known as Sioux Indians, are Matriarchal. I was raised in a Matriarchal home, and when I married, I married into Matriarchal homes. I know my history and I know my People, therefore I can speak about the values and complexity of Matriarchy.

And he describes the difference between Matriarchy and Patriarchy as:

Matriarchy is a balanced society...Matriarchal society, all the sexes celebrate our strengths. We are a society completely devoted to not harming another living being's feelings; be it an insect, a tree, our Grandmother, the Earth, or anyone that lives. We understand that all life comes from one Mother and it is our duty to respect our relatives. Another simple explanation is: try to imagine raising a child without the word no, which is another manifestation of Matriarchy. Imagine a society building a structure wherein you do not put anyone in a position to say no. Try to understand how these Matriarchal societies built clan systems that prevent incest at every level and provides for instant conflict resolution.

Women live longer than men can endure more pain and therefore have more endurance than men. It is a natural law to build your clan system based upon the lineage of women. (b/c only the lineage of women is obvious -- brook) ...

Now the obvious. Patriarchy is a fear based society where man rules alone. Therefore it is unbalanced. Patriarchy reared its ugly head over 6000 years ago at the same time as the marketplace became his tool. Patriarchy and the marketplace cannot exist without one another.The marketplace engenders greed which engenders empire. When one takes a close look at the histories of all Patriarchal empires, you will find that they make the same mistakes over and over and over and over again. From the ming dynasty to kublai khan to the egyptians, the greeks, the romans, the sun never sets on the english empire, the soviet union, and now the torture ridden empire of america. Nothing has changed for patriarchy, before jesus christ, or after jesus christ, before muhammed or after muhammed, before buddha or after buddha, et al.

Patriarchs fear everything. What does the Patriarch fear the most? It is the Woman. That is why for over 6000 years he has demonized, dehumanized, dominated, terrorized and controlled women. In Patriarchy is there anything the Patriarch does not fear?

[immune]

24. I"ve read that one of the things that confused the tribes

was that the great white father refused to negotiate with the women. I guess that should've been a big enough clue.

[nashville_brook]

25. that's a fundamental "wtf" moment that i think is still in operation...

http://workinprogress.firedoglake.com/2010/08/18/us-chamber-equal-pay-a-fetish-for-money-women-should-choose-the-right-partner-at-home

US Chamber: Equal Pay “a Fetish for Money,” Women Should “Choose the Right Partner at Home”
By: Michael Whitney Wednesday August 18, 2010 3:10 pm


The US Chamber of Commerce has apparently spent too much time watching Mad Men: in a blog post this morning, Chamber blogger Brad Peck called women’s fight for pay equity to be nothing more than a “fetish for money,” and said women complaining about their pay should focus instead on “choosing the right partner at home.” The Chamber’s Peck also approvingly quoted a post that asked, “Should government force gym-man to share his beautiful babes with couch-potato man?”

This is all in a post on the Chamber’s blog called: “Equality, Suffrage, and a Fetish for Money.” You can’t make it up.

1977: US Chamber opposes amendment to Civil Rights Act that would ban discrimination against pregnant women.
1978: US Chamber says pregnancy is a “voluntary” condition in its opposition to Pregnancy Discrimination Act.
1987: Family Medical Leave Act “sets a dangerous precedent,” according to the US Chamber.
1998: US Chamber opposes Equal Pay Act because “work experience does tend to create greater wage gaps.”
2007: US Chamber opposes Lilly Ledbetter’s court case for equal pay because “tear-stained testimony” prejudices against a defendant. Opposed the bill in Congress to right the wrongs against Ledbetter in 2008 and 2009 as well.
2007: Chamber official pledges “all out war” against Family Medical Leave Act, and in 2010 made it a “priority” to fight in Congress.
Monday: US Chamber again cites pregnancy as a “voluntary choice.”

[immune]

27. Thank you for that timeline!

I hadn't seen that list before, but I sure can use the information in my own little local project, because so far the chamber has put the kibosh on a plan that would actually be GOOD for small businesses and the people of the town I live in. Most people seem to be afraid to buck them.

I hope when you've finished with your project, you will share it here.

[nashville_brook]

29. i most definitely will -- we're already talking to other local groups and

looking toward building a larger framework off of it. i can see that the ultimate goal is to develop something "teachable."

[demigoddess]

32. amen, matriarchy makes so much more sense for the world

and children. We will only know peace and prosperity when we get back to matriarchy.

[DirkGently]

13. Isn't there a notion in radical feminism about the hijacking or de-

valuation of (perceived) "feminine values?" When Western culture overthrew the pagan gods and adapted (or, rather, stole) the old Earth-based celebrations in favor of the Big Man in the Sky paradigm, what else was lost? Collectivism? A respect for and sense of connection to, Nature writ large? Replaced with the notion that instead of coming *from* the earth, we are its masters, entitled to use and usurp and dominate our environment by dint of it's being "given" to us (or, more speciically, to men) by the big "King," who we were told, did not come from Earth, but "created" it?

I think women were thrown under the cultural bus along with values like hearth and home and interconnectedness because they did't fit with the landlords' chosen narratives about how things should work. First thing early Christians did, they locked the men and the knowledge up on mountaintops and decreed there would be no women there. No connection to the powers of HUMAN creation, e.g. the power of the womb. Can't have men and women connecting organically, sexually, to make their own tribes, farm their own land; create their own space, because that undermines the authority of the self-appointed Owners of the land to demand rents and fealty and sacrifice in wars fought only for "god and country."

Just spitballing.

[seabeyond]

14. i like this

and is going beyond the obvious. thanks....

[immune]

18. Good spitballs!

[nashville_brook]

19. Creation is POWER. a king couldn't populate and provide labor for his kingdom w/o the power

of reproduction. so, reproduction...the means of *human* production, itself (production of humans)...was threatening to the crown and needed to be subjugated.

[DirkGently]

20. Right. The womb threatens the crown.

Thus the idea of "fornication." The scarlet "A." A womb, we are told, is not owned by a woman, but by the Authority. You literally need a "license" to marry, i.e. breed. Thus the need to punish women who breed or have sex outside the rules.

You might create a nation loyal to *you* instead of the Sky King and His appointees on Earth. They might want a share of resources that "belong" to the King. Can't have that.

[nashville_brook]

33. that, women's power must be controlled, and shame being an ultimate form of control

and so, for the sake of the initial question, there's a definitive characteristic of women that has to do with SUBVERSIVE POWER.

chew on that for a while.

[nashville_brook]

31. what you're hitting on here is how DEFINITIONS of women vs men changed the course of history

this is all about narrative. the kings weren't able to get all the heathens to abide in the kingdom on brute force alone -- there was public relations involved. narratives were crafted that would replace the old gods with a new monotheistic system.

[lunatica]

16. An adult anatomically female human mammal who carries offspring to birth

Nothing whatsoever having to do with vocation, avocation, intelligence or mental or physical abilities.

[DirkGently]

26. Sure. Equality is one side of the coin. So is difference

There is a host of cultural and ethical considerations associated with femininity that are devalued. These things do not define women, but the cultural hostility to women may be defined by these "other" values that threaten power structures.

[readmoreoften]

49. So infertile women aren't women? Transwomen aren't women? Lesbians aren't women?

What about women with AIS? Breasts removed? Transmen with "F" on their drivers' licenses? Transmen who need a pap smear? Butch women who pass as men. XX women with hysterectomies? What is anatomically female? How many parts do you need?

[woo me with science]

28. Adult female human works for me. nt

[nashville_brook]

30. since this is something that is bound to come up -- can you expand on why an

abbreviated definition appeals to you?

[woo me with science]

35. I think that is what the word means.

What do you think is missing?

[owlsayswoot]

34. Ditto that, me

Too many folks who get involved in this sorts of discussions tend to forget that some women can't have kids, or won't, and it dosen't make them any less female for it.

[woo me with science]

36. that's true. nt

[femrap]

42. +1000

In fact, today we are hitting the limits to how many people this Planet can handle. I believe there should be incentives NOT to reproduce.

[nashville_brook]

45. that's a very good point -- childless adult woman, here

[mike_c]

37. interesting question-- my ex teaches university womens' studies...

...and I plan to ask her this very question!

[nashville_brook]

47. cool! thankyou!

[BrklynLiberal]

38. XX and perhaps XXY. no expectations. Whatever will be ..

No predefined roles, jobs, looks, clothes, etc.

[lostnfound]

39. My 9-year old son says "Be a woman!" when he wants me to be brave or daring.

I love hearing that. He equates it with being strong, powerful, and grown-up. Equivalent to saying "Be a man!", in his mind.

[seabeyond]

40. lol lol. i love your boy. i did things like this with sons

and hubby does not have to be a man thru the cultural defined image so he is a great example of what a man is...

and they grow up to be such interesting dudes.

high five that boy

[femrap]

43. LOL.....

When I get in a crabby mood or have a pity party.....I stop and say, 'Be a woman!' It helps me. And gets me out of the down mindset.

[nashville_brook]

53. that is SO COOL. i'll will for sure mention this to the group. perfect.

[femrap]

41. I surprised you

didn't a bunch of pron sites as a result of the Google.

I just hope the definition includes the word, Human, since so many women on this planet are not considered such.

[readmoreoften]

48. It's complicated when you add lesbians, transwomen, transmen, and intersexed people to the mix

Complicated both legally and socially. I would make sure your group is inclusive. No need to reheat the internal battles of the 1970s-90s.

[immune]

51. Two spirit

(tū'spĭr'ĭt)
n.
A person, especially a Native American man, who assumes the sexual identity and is granted the social status of the opposite sex. See Usage Note at berdache.

http://www.answers.com/topic/two-spirit

I was given to understand by a cree friend that there was no stigma attached to two-spirited people within the matriarchal native american culture, in fact they were supposedly honored for having a dual role in society in that they could better understand both sides of the equation. I have nothing to support that claim, just hearsay.

[nashville_brook]

52. we discussed this some last night, and i think that the direction we're pursuing

is shooting for inclusivity by it's nature. we're after cultural definitions that are positive -- so a lot of the comments here that stick to the biological nature (while good and valid) are kinda not what's interesting to the group. i think this exercise is more about empowerment and embracing, than just saying "two x chromosomes, on to the next question." this is much more complicated.

[snot]

50. Key to me is physical capacity to bear children. I don't like definitions that assume

particular mental or emotional traits or aptitudes, since I believe those are heavily influenced by post-birth conditioning, and we have vitually no properly controlled research to establish what's nurture vs. nature.

The more detailed/extensive a definition is, the more likely it is to be unnecessarily confining.

[flvegan]

54. Boobies owners/operators.

:hide:

:rofl:

[nashville_brook]

55. bad! bad, fivegan!

:spank:

[seabeyond]

56. i don't know. lots of men out there can claim the same thing. nt