A Christian Extremist Destroyed the Murrah Federal Building in OKC killing 168

[Dennis Donovan]

Should this church be torn down?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

1. But he was a "lone wolf"

that nobody on the right has EVER claimed ANY sort of responsibility for inciting during the first 2 years of Clinton's Presidency.

[47of74]

2. Yep.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

3. Evidence that McVeigh was a Christian extremist?

[Dennis Donovan]

5. He was a Christian and an extremist, just as...

...the 9/11 hijackers were Muslim and extremists. Both committed their acts for political reasons.

[dkf]

4. I thought he was an atheist? He didn't believe in an afterlife...doesn't sound Christian to me.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh?wasRedirected=true

He said that if there turned out to be an afterlife, he would "improvise, adapt and overcome",<68> noting that:

If there is a hell, then I'll be in good company with a lot of fighter pilots who also had to bomb innocents to win the war.<69>

[Fumesucker]

7. Nope, McVeigh asked for and received last rites from a priest..

http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/m/mcveigh/timothy_mcveigh.htm

While he was strapped to the gurney, prison officials said McVeigh received the Roman Catholic sacrament of the Anointment of the Sick, which is believed to forgive sins and prepare the sick for the passing over to eternal life.

[hfojvt]

8. that might only prove that he had a deathbed conversion

Did he, in fact, goto Mass every week for a year before his bombing? Was he following the teachings of a group of radical christain clerics who declared holy war on the US Government?

If that's the case, then shouldn't he havr been a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran instead of a Catholic? Or gone to Jeremiah Wright's church maybe?

[Fumesucker]

9. He grew up Catholic..

I know Christians *hate* to admit that anyone who does a heinous deed might be a member of their community but McVeigh was born, raised and died a Christian.

So no, it wasn't a "deathbed conversion", he was already a life long Christian.

[hfojvt]

10. So what? I grew up Presbyterian

but by age 17, I was an atheist. So growing up Catholic and then asking for a priest right before you die, does not prove that somebody was a life long Christian. Not even close. Further, even if he did goto Mass that does not prove anything more than the BTK's church attendance does. If the Catholic church is really teaching that buildings should be blown up, then there are lots of Catholics apparently falling short. It simply was not at church where McVeigh learned to be a terrorist and BTK learned to be a serial killer.

[Fumesucker]

14. Atheists don't ask for last rites to be performed by a priest..

I know you want McVeigh to be an atheist but he wasn't, your attempt to put McVeigh in the atheist camp is a vile slander.

Like atheists don't already have enough bad PR in the land of the free..

[hfojvt]

21. I was talking about my own life story.

That implies nothing about McVeigh, only that a person can grow up in a religion but then lose or change that religion - just like I did.

As far as an "atheist" asking for last rites, again you miss the point. As I mentioned - deathbed conversion. Asking for a priet at the end does not prove that a person lived their life as a Christian. It may just mean they got scared at the end.

Sheesh, I thought atheists were supposed to be good at logic.

[Fumesucker]

22. I understood your story, my own is similar..

But if someone grew up a Christian and then asks for last rites it's hard to credit that they were actually an atheist.

Apatheist is more like it, but nevertheless still a Christian.

Why you are helping the Christians paint one of their mass murderers as an atheist I cannot fathom, like I said, it's not like atheists suffer from a lack of bad press in the USA already.

[hfojvt]

25. I am not at all trying to paint him as an atheist

that just happens to be a story I know well, because it is my own. If I start talking about John Walker Lindh, then I have to do research, and why should I do that when my own example is so readily available.

And that sounds like a "no true atheist" fallacy, but it is not about atheism. He might have just become an agnostic or a Reformed LDSer or a Zoroastrian or a Muslim or whatever. The two facts, that he was raised Catholic and that he asked for last rites on his death chair, do not prove he was a practicing Catholic. Without more detail, the middle of his life is still a black box, an unknown.

[Fumesucker]

28. The post I originally replied to stated McVeigh was an atheist..

I pointed out that he was raised a Christian and asked for last rites to be performed.

The Christians here desperately want McVeigh to be an atheist, a lot of your fellow atheists would appreciate it if you wouldn't help them out, we are *already* the single most despised minority in America.

[Terra Alta]

23. Maybe he went back to religion while in prison

Doesn't mean he was a practicing Christian when he blew up the Murrah building.

[Fumesucker]

26. Yes, of course, only an evil atheist could do such an awful deed..

You know who else was an atheist?

Hitler, that's who..

Except he wasn't.

[Terra Alta]

30. I really don't care what religion he was or wasn't

What he did was awful.. there have been Christians who have done awful things, and atheists who have done awful things.. but there are also very decent Christians and very decent atheists. Just because one is an atheist doesn't mean they are evil.

[howaboutme]

12. I agree

Most info about McVeigh indicates he had Catholic background but was more agnostic than Christian. He was not a religious radical or fundamentalist. There are many legitimate unanswered questions from knowledgeable experts about the OKC bombing and 9-11 that have never even been addressed, let alone addressed satisfactorily by authorities.

The only way this debate and argument will ever be resolved would be an official inquiry and formalized web trial/debate where experts on both sides control the debate direction. They would post their positions and those on the opposite sides would debate them using experts and existing testimony. Where none exited then subpoena witnesses. Both events are too important to have permitted politicians to stymie and control investigation and interrogation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing_conspiracy_theories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

[madrchsod]

6. there`s two more churches near the building...

[NC_Nurse]

11. Don't forget Eric Rudolph, ATL Olympics bomber and womens clinic bomber.

He is indeed a Christian terrorist. And there are plenty of Christian churches in downtown ATL.

[Puregonzo1188]

42. Thank you! I can't believe Erich Rudolph has completely slipped our collective memory.

He actually committed his acts of terror (Olympic bombing, abortion clinic bombings, LGBT bombings) due to his religious extremism. And I bet there's a church near the site of each! An actual church, as opposed to a community center.

[Obamanaut]

13. A couple of things here. The church was already there, as opposed

to one being constructed near the Murrah site.

The extremist just happened to be christian and his actions were political, as opposed to a group of religious radicals whose statement was religious in nature.

fail and unrec

[grantcart]

15. The fact that the extremists articulated their religious feelings

doesn't change the point.


Muslims are in no way more or less accountable for the acts of 9/11 than Catholics are responsible for McVeigh or Evangelicals responsible for the Atlantic Olympic bomber.


Asking Muslims to compromise or move the site of the community center unfairly gives them the burden to justify their lack of relationship with 9/11.

The people that go to that Church had the same degree of responsibility for McVeigh as NY Muslims have to 9/11, none. Any parsing of differences is anti Islamic bigotry.

[Rhiannon12866]

18. +1. Very well said.

:thumbsup:

[Dennis Donovan]

35. That is the point exactly.

Thanks, Grantcart!:thumbsup:

[cleanhippie]

16. Correct...on some things.

The "he just happened to be christian" is BS. His christian beliefs fueled his political motivations.

[Cheap_Trick]

17. Bingo.

Why else would he have gotten his panties in a bunch over what happened to a religious cult in Waco?

[Rhiannon12866]

37. Excellent point, though I would hardly characterize his beliefs

As authentically "Christian." :eyes:

Welcome to DU, cleanhippie! We're glad to have you with us! :hi:

[Freetradesucks]

38. Correct... on some things.

The 9/11 terrorists "just happened to be muslims" is bullshit. Their muslim beliefs fueled their murderous rampage.

[cleanhippie]

41. You are right.

And the muslim community needs to own that, just as the christian community needs to own theirs.

[WinkyDink]

19. In the cause of Christianity?

[MadMaddie]

20. I have another question

How many churches have been built or are around the Twin towers area? I am including all churches.....

If they are going to stop this recreational center from being built then logic says that any church built since 9/11 is sacriligeous right?:shrug:

By the way 80 Muslims were killed on 9/11...guess the right doesn't count their lives as worthy of respect....

[Dennis Donovan]

34. Very true...

:thumbsup:

[Terra Alta]

24. I'm still not convinced he was a Christian

At least, not at the time anyway.

Eric Rudolph, OTOH was/is a Christian who thought he was doing God's duty by blowing up abortion clinics.

[Ezlivin]

27. Maybe he drove to a tent revival meeting first?

That's a hell of a militia you got there, McVey!

[Freetradesucks]

29. He didn't do it because his religion told him to,

in which he was not involved in at all. He did it because he hated the Federal government. This is what gives the right ammunition to discredit us, when we twist the truth.

It is well documented on the other hand, that the 9/11 hijackers did it for "jihad" or holy war against the West.

[Dennis Donovan]

33. They hid behind their religion - they were assholes who hated the US for...

...a myriad of goeopolitical reasons.

:eyes:

[Freetradesucks]

39. Gotcha.

The muslims that killed 3000 people in New York in about 3 hours weren't really muslims, they just pretended to be because.....wait, why did they pretend to be?

Oh yeah, for a myriad of geopolitical reasons. But Tim Mcviegh blew up the federal building because he was catholic. Gotcha. (wink)

[LostinVA]

36. The 9/11 terrorists were not devout Muslims, they were zealots

who did not even adhere to the basic tenets of Islam. They drank and visited strip bars, for example. Zealots aren't devout religious, imo, they pervert the faith they wrap around themselves as a facade, a false front.

[GSLevel9]

31. Red herring?

Ahhh yeah. Was Mcveigh a Christian? Kinda... did religion motivate his attack? Not in the slightest. Were the AQ 19 motivated by religion directly? That would be a yes...

[Dennis Donovan]

32. They were motivated by politics - they were fundamental Muslim extremists...

:eyes:

[Initech]

40. All religious extremists suck but this is a good point.