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Without reasonable suspicion or probable cause, can police follow your car 24/7? (9th Cir. case)

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 08:35 PM
Original message
Without reasonable suspicion or probable cause, can police follow your car 24/7? (9th Cir. case)
Edited on Fri Aug-27-10 08:50 PM by Land Shark
Answer: According to the reasoning of the 9th Circuit case Pineda-Moreno, the 9th Circuit apparently thinks the police, with or without reasonable suspicion, can follow your vehicle 24/7 because you have no reasonable expectation of privacy wherever your car goes, outside a very private closed garage, etc. The 9th Circuit clearly implied exactly this, reasoning by analogy that since it was ever so clear to them under a prior case called Knotts that cops can follow someone anywhere on public roads and parking lots without any privacy invasion, then clearly, the court thought, a GPS device can be secretly installed in the driveway of someone's home (which driveway is unfenced) without even a modest requirement of reasonable suspicion -- since there's no reasonable expectation of privacy in any publicly visible area. In a footnote the court said it could revisit if there were any massive violations in this area. {!}

So, unless you live in a gated community of private roads, or have a Palin-style 14 foot fence, or in other words if you're rich enough, then you may have a tiny residue of home privacy left, but even in that case never outside the walls of your home or even inside your home if any of it can be seen in "open view" through windows, if your gated community and fencing isn't robust enough.

Isn't this a key part of the very picture of a totalitarian state: Police tailing someone 24/7 in a police vehicle, specifically without probable cause?

TRANSLATION: IT is clearly implied that police cars can follow someone 24/7 without reasonable suspicion, that 'fact' is used to justify the specific holding of the case, allowing GPS devices to be secretly installed in a private unfenced driveway or street parking area because there were, at best, semi-private in the case of the driveway and public in the case of the street.

The only way the court could ever hold otherwise and distance itself from this implication would be to criticize its own lax reasoning in the Pineda-Moreno case as "dicta" and then somehow it would have to distinguish police tailing around the clock for no reason and with no suspicion WITH a VISIBLE police car, from the case of police tailing 24/7 with an INVISIBLE "police car" so to speak, in the form of a technological GPS-device that the court says gives the same information (location) as the tailing in a real police car.

Here's how the opinion actually "reasons," saying:

"{...}whereas in Knotts, as in this case, “{t}he substitute is for an activity, namely following a car on a public street, that is unequivocally not a search within the meaning of the amendment.” United States v. Garcia, 474 F.3d 994, 997 (7th Cir.2007). Pineda-Moreno makes no claim that the agents used the tracking devices to intrude into a constitutionally protected area. The only information the agents obtained from the tracking devices was a log of the locations where Pineda-Moreno's car traveled, information the agents could have obtained by following the car.
UNITED STATES v. PINEDA-MORENO, No. 08-30385, January 11, 2010 http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1497005.html


All the Founders and great political philosophers (of freedom and democracy) that I know of agree that the proper attitude is to be "jealous" of any apparent invasion of rights, to be vigilant in defense of liberty. This means being akin to a sentinel, responding to noises with an attitude of defending rights even in cases where it may well in the end turn out to "be nothing." In light of that, I can't see any reason for rolling over and going back to sleep on this opinion, falsely smug with the idea that the case concerned large purchases of fertilizer for marijuana activity, because a holding is a general rule applied to all, and the court said it didn't need to rule whether or not reasoanble suspicion much less probable cause existed because there was no 4th Amendment search.

Only 3 states with more protective state constitutions appear exempt as the court notes in footnote: Washington, Oregon, and New York.

ON EDIT: Connecting my recent post on Google's Droid phone, which was based entirely on direct quotes from Google's CEO: If you like the holding of this case, may I recommend the purchase of a cell phone with the google "Droid" operating system on it, because, as Google's CEO was recently bragging in the Wall Street Journal, they know where you are at all times within 1 foot. (In addition to knowing who you are, what you're interested in, and roughly who your friends are, and having google earth pics of your home, etc., ad nauseum) Combine that with this case, and they can track you without warrant or even suspicion 24/7 using your Droid phone alone.

A Droid phone, then, in our Brave New World of "constitutional" law, is not a Smartphone, it's more like a SmartBomb.

Think about the chill on braver political activity like Martin Luther King's (who was followed, harassed, etc by FBI): How easy would it be to call in a drone or have a scaffold accidentally collapse against a political leader of resistance carrying a cell phone? Or even just to scare them? Droid phones are the stylish new symbol of total privacy abdication. (Of course you and I know that governments including the US government have never tracked, harassed, intimidated or killed any political "resistance" at any time... :sarcasm: )
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hey, Happy Friday to you too.
Really? GPS tracking without a warrant? That seems like a prima facia instance of not allowing citizens "to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures..."

Thanks for posting this.


And seriously: happy Friday.

:hi:
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. A happy friday indeed. nt
Edited on Sat Aug-28-10 01:13 AM by 2 Much Tribulation
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. A car is an effect. Judges are willfully complicit in establishment of a police state
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Nobody I know would feel 'secure in their person" with a 24/7 police tail on them... nt
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. All this kind of stuff is beyond the pale but the cowardly and bootlickers trade rights for
the illusion of safety.

Tailing that guy that looks like maybe he could possibly the type of fella that conceivably sell teh reefer ain't gonna protect your family.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Even if the police can follow me 24/7, they can't sit themselves in the backseat
and ride along with me during my daily routine...
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. so you're not concerned, is that what you're saying? "Follow me" is your motto?
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Well, if you don't have anything to hide, then...?
:eyes:
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. if you don't have anything to hide, then no objection being stalked. hmm. nt
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dickthegrouch Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. You may not have anything to hide, today
But that liberal newspaper might be incriminating tomorrow.
Or your visit to that subversive dentist might just be enough to get you jammed up.
Or maybe even those drugs dropped out of the pocket of the guy who just washed your car gets you an "interview" you could do without.
Anyone who relies on the notion of "Nothing to hide" is a complete fool.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. But every single day, if they search your car/house, both guilty and innocent pick up the pieces
The cops will certainly not clean up the mess they create from whatever "search" or "non-search" they happen to do. That's one good reason not to consent to a search when innocent: It's unjust, when you're innocent, to have to clean up the mess of your car being ripped apart or rifled through, and for the time and hassle....
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. I think you misunderstood my point. The court said that GPS was OK because
the 24/7 tail is legal, my point was that that equivalency is flawed...
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Doesn't matter if "the euivalency is flawed" because it's the core rationale of the opinion
it's taken as noncontroversial, as a prior holding, as something that can't be questioned
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. You had better hope that you are an absolutely perfect driver. (nt)
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I'm not. You missed the point I was trying to make... (nt)
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. It must not have been a good point, then. (nt)
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. & they don't need probable cause to stop you, just claim seatbelt was off, then look in backseat. nt
Edited on Fri Aug-27-10 09:17 PM by 2 Much Tribulation
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ChoppinBroccoli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'm Pretty Sure That When You're In Public.............
Edited on Fri Aug-27-10 09:30 PM by ChoppinBroccoli
...........anyone can follow anyone else anywhere they want for as long as they want. Now, they certainly can't trespass on your property or do things like pull you over, do a pat-down search, ask you for I.D., search your vehicle, etc., etc., etc. If all they're doing is following you around, I don't see how that is a problem.

I'm a criminal defense attorney who has big problems with a lot of the things cops do on a day-to-day basis, but I really have no problem with this decision. The only problem I would have is the idea that the police in this particular town have so little to do and so much manpower to do it that they're ABLE to simply follow one person around all day long.

True story. I get a lot of work from a small town about an hour away from here. Why? Because the cops have nothing to do, so generally they just sit at gas stations or busy intersections and run plates all day long. As a result, the Court in this town gets an outrageously high number of Driving Under Suspension charges. I agree, it seems shady, and it is certainly maddening to think that the cops have nothing better to do, but from a strictly legal standpoint, I don't see how you could prevent it. You're in public. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy when you're in public. If you don't like being followed, go someplace private.

EDIT: OK, I made the above comment based solely on the headline. I just read the actual decision and it IS pretty frightening. The idea of planting GPS tracking devices on vehicles, while not new, certainly does seem like an abuse of police power. Seems awfully close to wiretapping, bugging, hidden cameras in homes........you know, real Big Brother stuff. Physically following you around in public is one thing, but using electronic devices to track your every movement? Seems like it crosses a line. What's next? Will you be surgically implanted at birth with a chip like the kind they sew into dogs' lips in case they run away? Be very careful when you start giving up rights. That's an awfully slippery slope you're treading.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Interesting to see evolution in your thinking from start to finish there...
The opinion lays foundation, whether it means to or not, for "biometric ID" or an implanted chip so we can all be tracked 24/7. This, under the logic of the opinion, would not be any kind of violation of privacy because we have "no reasonable expectation of privacy" and the "mere fact" that it also reports our location in our (private) homes is nothing (they would say) because it simply "follows logically and is compelled as an inference from the last location outside the driveway and headed into the closed garage..."
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. If someone is continuously following you around
Edited on Sat Aug-28-10 05:24 AM by Art_from_Ark
and you don't want them to, then what the other person is doing would be considered "stalking", which is not legal.
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. True, it is stalking, and a protective order might well be had to stop it
because of the actual possession of lethal force on the part of the police especially when combined with the lack of any good reason for it. That being said, I've not heard of any police officers being held for or charged with stalking (not in their off-hours but on duty)
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. Since the "War on Drugs" our rights have ceased to exist in many many cases.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. True, there's been years of erosion. Doesn't mean this "little" landslide is no alarm
Right?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-10 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Absolutely. It's all the more reason to be alarmed in aggregate.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Ok, agreed. Wasn't sure what you thought based on first comment. nt
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
22.  no. 12 K&R. We need our whole constitution put back, and
the patriot act disposed of.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. & the patriot act disposed of. Yes. nt
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
27. K & R
!!!
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
28. Google's scandalous invasion of people's privacy should be sufficient
reason to have their patent annulled, apart from other punitive sanctions.

I believe in France and other countries, Google are being prosecuted for invasion of people's privacy:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADFA_enGB339GB339&q=france+google+privacy

Somehow, I don't think the CIA will give up its data.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-10 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
30. Highly recommended.
Thank you for posting this. I hope DUers read it and understand the consequences.
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