I Am Shocked And Saddened Beyond Words At What I Just Read

[ChoppinBroccoli]

This morning, one of my Facebook friends posted this video message from Ellen Degeneres regarding the rash of suicides by bullied gay teens lately. Now, I am not really a big fan of Ellen's, but I found this video moving. Here's the link to it: http://www.facebook.com/index.php?lh=f55cd218cfd3674fce48f8498ec61728&eu=pdP7LCNwRXDMhQokB3j23g#!/video/video.php?v=592846987806

After I watched the video, I told my friend who posted it that I appreciated seeing it, and left the following message: "We live in a country that tells gay people that they're not human and don't deserve rights. We live in a State that has hate speech written right into its State Constitution. Is it any wonder why this kind of crap is starting to crop up amongst our children?"

I didn't expect for one second the kind of response I would get. My right-wing friend, who NEVER seems to just let ANYTHING slide, and feels the need to "counter" ANYTHING he sees as being in opposition to his viewpoint, responds with this sickening message. Fair warning: this is a low blow even for him. It really makes me question whether I even want to be associated with him anymore. Here's his response: "though i feel anyone taping people when they are in a private moment is wrong and should be punished............i find it in interesting that Ellen brings this up only when a gay male ends his life...........i feel for his family though suicide is and always will be a cowards choice devoid of sexual pref..........and i too find it interesting when the gay debate comes to light we are rarely if ever given facts opposing the immoral choices by 2-3 % of the population..........."

Then he follows it up with two links. This one: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html and this one: http://www.adherents.com/adh_dem.html

Bear in mind that the original friend who posted this message has two siblings, a brother and a sister, who are both gay. Now here comes Mr. Holier-Than-Thou Right-Winger emphatically proving the point I was trying to make. Some of the crap he says, I don't even understand the point of. Like the whole, "I find it interesting that Ellen brings this up only when a gay male ends his life," thing. WHAT??? Why would that make ANY difference at all? But to then go on and say that these kids DESERVED to die because 1) they're only 2% of the population anyway, so who cares? and 2) they made a choice to be gay and therefore immoral, so who cares if they die?

I really am shocked to the point where I can barely even catch my breath. Just SHOCKING intolerance. I expected better, even from a right-winger. I don't even know what to say right now.

[WillParkinson]

1. Please accept my apologies for saying this...

Your 'friend' is a piece of sub-human filth.

[vanlassie]

2. How about :

"Your lack of simple Christian compassion is breathtaking."

[bluestateguy]

3. For me, posting of homophobic remarks is grounds for FB de-friending

I can tolerate a lot of crap that I don't agree with, but I am proud to be intolerant of homophobic people.

[cutlassmama]

8. +1

[NanceGreggs]

4. Ask your friend ...

... who believes being gay is a choice, when he decided to be "straight".

It's a question certain people can never answer - and they usually tie themselves in knots in attempting to do so.

[pinboy3niner]

6. !

:hi:

[NanceGreggs]

18. The fact that we choose to love ...

... seems less important than who we choose to love.

If we love at all, we are one with each other.

Isn't that the idea - as well as the ideal?

[pinboy3niner]

22. Sounds like this FB 'friend'...

...would find that notion very foreign. Which is especially ironic if his views are the product of religious indoctrination.

Reminds me of that song from South Pacific:

You've got to be taught

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

[Mimosa]

19. Why ask a hatefilled bigot anything?

Useless time wasting exercise.

[Heidi]

5. If thee's no chance of bringing him around to rational thought, unfriend him. (nt)

[jobycom]

7. Socratic method.

Ask him questions to show his arguments' weaknesses. For instance "Ellen also commented passionately on the case where a straight girl killed herself after being bullied by the parent of a friend. Is she only allowed to comment on non-gay suicides, in your opinion? Doesn't she have an expectation to comment, even, given that she is gay and has faced such discrimination and bullying herself?"

And "Most studies show anywhere from 8% to 15% of the US population has had homosexual experiences, meaning that at some point they believed they were gay. Where do you get your lower numbers? And even if we pretend they are accurate, what 'facts' do you think 'oppose' these 'immoral choices?' No using religious doctrine, since that's opinion and not 'fact.'"

And "If you believe that homosexuality is both a choice, and wrong, shouldn't you be even more supportive of gays who are bullied, since bullying will not help them see, in your opinion, the error of their ways?" If you know him to be religious, you could add something like "Wouldn't your god want them to survive long enough to have a chance to convert? Doesn't wishing them dead, or saying we shouldn't try to save them (same thing, despite the disclaimer), contradict your religion's duty to help all people to find salvation? Doesn't driving them to their death (or encouraging others who have done so) contradict your religion?" Something like that.

Just some suggestions. I have trouble walking away from arguments like that. I've stayed friends with old friends who show some signs of softening such positions, or who at least kept discussing it long enough to hear opposing views, but I've dumped friends who simply restate their hateful positions without any sign of listening at all.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

11. I'm Not Going To Respond To Him At All, For Several Reasons

First of all, I think us having a little pissing contest on someone else's thread devalues or diminishes the message the video is intended to convey.

Second, I'm trying to be sensitive to the feelings of the original poster (remember, he has two gay siblings, and now he's just been "informed" that they deserve to die). I think that the proper course of action in this particular case is just to leave it alone.

Finally, I really think the shocking intolerance and bigotry speaks for itself, and I want to leave his comments right there on the front page so people can see just how "compassionate" right-wingers really are. Kids are killing themselves, and this guy is essentially saying, "So what? They're ONLY gays. Who cares?" I know the Nazi comparisons have grown tiresome and trite over the years, but I really see a lot of similarities in this guy's thinking about gays to the way the Nazis thought about Jews.

Make no mistake, I could really slam-dunk this guy if I wanted to. I've got plenty of ammunition to do it, too (and I'm the kind of person that is normally UNABLE to let right-wing bullshit go unrefuted--even if I try to ignore it, it will eat at me until I go back and respond to it). But I just think the best way to handle this, given the circumstances, is to just let it stand where it is. His own words make him look worse than anything I could possibly say in response anyway.

[JohnnyLib2]

13. Makes sense to not go back on the first friend's post, IMO.

Also, the guy has used "official" Catholic material. If you go any deeper into that source, you run into no masturbation, no birth control, etc. Not the place to invite that, eh?

Sorry that you've run into a shocker from a friend.

[Ineeda]

23. Silence implies consent. n/t

[JohnnyLib2]

26. As I read the OP, he had replied first and was "on record" on FB.

I can't really disagree with you, but don't think "silence" is accurate this time.

[lunatica]

35. I understand your points but to say nothing is to be part of the problem

You don't have to say much, but the original poster with the gay siblings would appreciate knowing who his friends really are. All you have to say is that you think he's wrong and that he's a bigot. One sentence.

I would. Because saying you think people should die for being gay is cruel and downright evil, but to let people say it without reprimand or condemnation is just as bad.

[MrScorpio]

9. I wouldn't be surprised that FB was responsible for ending a lot of long term friendships

Some of those endings are well deserved.

[Iris]

34. along with casual and peripheral relationships

I've only unfriended 1 person and he was just someone who was from my h.s., not a real friend.

I've been unfriended by at least 1 person who I was chummy with in h.s. but we clearly had little in common and had it not been for FB, I probably would not have ever had contact with her again anyway.

[OmahaBlueDog]

10. I won't list them here, but the RW responses on news site message boards have been beyond vile

The other response you should brace yourself for:

"Well, it was his room too...how can putting a webcam in your own room be called an 'invasion of privacy'?"

I've seen variations of that pop up in several places.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

12. Update

I just went on Facebook and discovered that the MOTHER of my friend who posted the video (the original poster, not the bigot) clicked "Like" on my comment. This tells me that I'm right in just letting this go. Besides, as I stated above, if I were to make a comment, it would knock Mr. Bigot's comments off the front page, and I really prefer to just leave them blazing right there for everyone to read. Instead of killing the cockroach, I'm just going to shine a huge spotlight on it, expose it, and let everyone know it's there (in this particular case, anyway).

[JohnnyLib2]

15. Good to hear.

:thumbsup:

[StarlightGold]

25. Maybe

you can simply write "This post speaks for itself", so that his lovely thoughts will still be glaring, but then there's no mistake about where you stand.

[happi1]

14. fallen

Prayers for those who fell.


:(

It is like dudes who like watching snakes eat mice.

[orleans]

16. ugh. what a prick he is

i learned/understood a long fucking time ago that when some asshole starts spewing their hate speech to me that if i don't speak up and tell them how offensive i find it and to not talk that shit around me anymore that it sends a signal to them that i'm condoning what they are saying or somehow approving of it or agreeing with it.

and even tho it's his facebook page you posted on--if he's answering you personally and you let it slide well then...

tough shit that it's his facebook page. now anyone who reads it might think you're agreeing to a point because you haven't responded back to his crap.

oh, and while you respond back to his comments about the immoral choice of being gay, you might also point out his callous/heartless/ignorant and completely unchristian remark about suicide being a cowards choice.

and may he never suffer the agony of having lost a loved one in such a way.

[Jennicut]

17. Intolerance for those who suffer from depression as well. Suicide is a coward's way out? No, it is

the result of severe depression, idiot. I have suffered from depression since I was a teenager. I don't actually want to have suicidal thoughts, loser. Tying suicide to religious nonsense is what I see. What an ill-informed bigoted jerk.

[Enthusiast]

33. Yes................nt

[Mimosa]

20. I'm questioning WHY you chose to include links to anti-gay propaganda in your post

Are you saying your 'friend' posted a link to Ellen Degeneres' video, then sent you links to some anti-gay sites? ODD.

[kimi]

21. Yeah, I had the same message from Ellen "shared" with me too

but by a tolerant and loving progressive who saw the tragedy of this situation.

And it IS tragic. It breaks my heart that these things happen in this day, when we are supposed to be so enlightened. Well, when I imagine that we are enlightened. And I do believe that we will be one day. It's an extreme tragedy that these kids won't see that day. Brings tears to my eyes.

[TBF]

24. I've had that experience on FB as well -

I use it almost exclusively to keep up with old friends/family who live across the country now. It is so nice to re-connect with people you've known since you were 5, and remember the childhood times. But I've also had the same experience of some of them being rabid right-wingers, pro-military, etc... I really try to keep it non-political on that site but it can be hard sometimes. And, yes, a few people I've just decided I no longer have any desire to stay in touch with. Kind of sad.

[TonyMontana]

27. Why are you friends with this person?

[kevinbgoode]

28. I'm sorry you choose not to respond to him, because if it was ME,

I'd be responding with something like this:

In my experience, it has been the bullies who are the immoral cowards in these kinds of situations. Often, when the rest of society is lucky enough to apprehend them, they attempt to lie their way out of any responsibility for their actions. This country has a history of cases, even among adults, in which bullies who have murdered gay or transgendered individuals have cowardly attempted to justify their actions by painting themselves as victims merely because they felt forced to live on the same planet as the people they murdered.

And yet you attempt to cite, as one of your examples of "facts," a "religious" organization which has a history of bullying gay people, and whose arrogance at claiming to be the sole interpreters of human sexuality and "morality" are repeatedly displayed in its own acts of cowardice. That church willfully and arrogantly chose to cover up over 10,000 reported incidents of sexual abuse for DECADES, using a cowardly way of coping with situations that directly affected children all around the world. Yet you have the audacity to claim that it is a source for defining morality for everyone? It is a "morality" grounded in innate fear and cowardice.

[Stevenmarc]

29. Sexuality is not a choice but Facebook friends are, time for you to edit your friends list

[Mr. Mustard]

30. Reminds me of the time a wingnut

went in verbal circles explaining how Max Cleland was indeed a coward for throwing himself on a grenade in Vietnam and saving his friends.

Mr. Cleland lost both legs and an arm, but the wingnut (at the local dog park) was determined to call him a coward.

I could not contain myself and got in his face, and shouted him down. I mean spittle. People came between us, and afterwards I decided that I would never, never give credence to a wingnut anymore.

I decided and have followed through, they act like that, they choose that level of deceit and hatefulness, so the rich can have more, then they are not my friends, I don't pretend they are my friends, and I shun them.

Little, I know but I have two in-laws who I make very uncomfortable during the holidays because they have tried to intimidate and ridicule me, ala Rush Limbaugh and I told them both to stop, that it would get ugly.

The women in the family have talked them down, so now they take verbal potshots against liberals and government every chance they get when I am within ear shot.

I later learned the dog park fool is a trust fund baby, never (had) to work a day in his life. My in-laws, one's wife works for the CA Highway Dept. and he has great health insurance because of it, and the other's father in-law has bailed him out of several financial jams.

But they are all rugged individualists who despise, and I mean despise Democrats who are "losers". Losers is their favorite word.

I now take great pleasure that once a wingnut attacks me for daring to be a proud liberal, I let that person know, they want a fight, they got a fight.

They run away every time, and resort to muttering under their breath insults towards me.

I force myself to confront these jerks whenever they attack me. I never start a fight with them, but I do follow up when they call me Hugo Chavez or baby killer.

It is important that they understand that when they get away from their radios, that real people will fight back.

Markos of Daily Kos and his book "American Taliban" in addition to Alan Grayson's "Taliban Dan" attack ad are, in my opinion the correct message to make with the Facebook "Friend".

It is simple and very effective. Call that bastard part of the "American Taliban". That will get his attention, and others too.

Creep.

[pinboy3niner]

32. It's hard to get any lower than the attacks on Max Cleland

IIRC, he was portrayed as a terrorist sympathizer and even a traitor! Max Cleland! And they got away with using those tactics.

Thanks for your sharing your story, and welcome to DU! :hi:

[MattBaggins]

31. What the frack does it matter what percentage they are?

Just ask your friend that question. What does it matter?

[treestar]

36. The suicide would be tragic if it were straight, too

That could happen, too. It's the filming part that was so horrific, which could happen either way.

Still your friend is an idiot, of course. Not seeing that at all.

[ThomCat]

37. I'm sorry you have to deal with anyone like that.

:(

:hug:

I'd de-friend that one, personally, and explain why. Life's too short to spend even a moment of it with bigots. :(