Where Would You Rather Live?

[kpete]

Even monkeys know that inequality is wrong, so why doesn't Versailles?
by: Paul Rosenberg
Mon Oct 04, 2010 at 16:30
http://www.openleft.com/diary/20377/even-monkeys-know-that-inequality-is-wrong-so-why-doesnt-versailles


http://thesituationist.wordpress.com/2010/10/02/even-monkeys-know-when-theyre-being-treated-unfairly/#more-11792
http://www.toomuchonline.org/tmweekly.html

[Uncle Joe]

1. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[kpete]

86. back at you

Uncle Joe,
peace to you, kpete

[onehandle]

2. Society B, but with the resources of a member of Abba. nt

[Uncle Joe]

4. A little theme music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCkOmcIl79s

[femrap]

27. Thanks....

I like Abba.

[Uncle Joe]

58. My pleasure,

I do as well.

[KansDem]

3. Sweden ranks no. 4 on Forbes "happiest countries" list. US is no. 14.

The World's Happiest Countries

[Quantess]

5. Swedes are happier, even with their lousy tv programs,

near-total lack of sunlight in the dead of winter, and expensive gasoline. They are obviously doing something right!

[donco]

7. Wellll...they do have

their downside.......ABBA.:evilgrin:

[Quantess]

9. they can smile even when eating fermented herring, "surströmming".

Yuck!

[Diclotican]

13. Quantess

Quantess

surströmming isen't that bad, in fact it is rather tastefull and good. Have tried it, and it is in fact tastefull, and healty to eat. But yes, it is an speciall dish, that just swedish could be able to produce.:evilgrin:

Diclotican

[Quantess]

18. I'd eat smörgåstårta every day, though. That's what my avatar is.

I'm a dual citizen.
Snart jag kommer att flytta till Sverige! :D

[Diclotican]

23. Quantess

Quantess

Ah, you are also swedish.. Good for you;) I know a few americans who would love to travel with you to sweden;)

HM, ah it was a smørbrødstårta your avatar was.. Something I was not able to understand that...

Im from Norway by the way, but my dad was living in Sweden for more than 20 year, and is burried outside Arvika, its 3 year since he left, but I slitt miss him...

Diclotican

[Quantess]

29. I would love to visit Norway. It looks really beautiful. Even more scenic than Sweden,

from what i've seen. You Norwegians have it good. :)

I feel really lucky to have dual citizenship, and yeah, some people are are a little jealous. It's scary and sad to move, but I feel like moving is the smartest choice for me right now.

The USA is not the same place that my parents moved to 40 years ago, they say. There used to be a strong middle class here, and people didn't used to be so mean to each other, my mom said.

[Diclotican]

60. Quantess

Quantess

Wel, we manage wel, with the land Sweden was kind enough, to give us, when they stole more or less half the country in the 1500 and 1600s... Nice fellow the swedish I might say, they maight stole parts like Båhus and Herjedalen, but left us with the best:evilgrin: And even let us keep the oil for us self, as they do not belive it to be worth while... Today Sweden should die to have some oil and the money to keep their own wel fare system at bay:P Oh wel, sorth sighted swedish

Wel, it wil be a time to adjust to the culture in Sweden for sure. Many thing is really different from USA, but I guess you wil make the adjustment wel. Sweden are not that hard to "crack the code" to, as my dad was living there for 20 year, and was more and more swedish as the times goes by... But he was also really norwigian by the way

The US are not the same as it was when I was younger, the US of today, is a scary place, where mutch of what I belived was the norm, are not that anymore.. To me it looks like US is a selfish nations, going hairwaire becouse of the attack of 11 sept 2001. Good helped by a right wing, who want to use the military forces to build an empire, rather than be friends with your nabours, and friends with your allieds... Its maybe time for US to look little into themself, and se what have been made wrong the last couple of decades

I hope you wil enyoy yourself when you move to Sweden.. It is a nice country, after all, and most of the people is friendly and welcome strangers..

Diclotican

[JDPriestly]

66. Before Nixon, people were not so mean.

[Diclotican]

68. JDPriestly

JDPriestly

I belive you, Nixon was kind of a turning point for most things in US I guess

Even tho you had a decent president in Jimmy Carter.. For all his wrongs, he was at least honest, and in his 4 years of serice, US was (to my knowlegde) not in war, mostly becouse mr Carter do not belived in war..
And, even tho he is in his 80s he is an impressive man who is active as few. A decent man, who also have been honest to his prinsiples, regardness of what the opposite force was wanting him to do..

Diclotican

[liberation]

77. People tend to only remember the "good parts" from the past.

Before Nixon, the national sport in many parts of the US was "hanging the negro off a tree branch" and we already went through a few depressions brought forth by the upper classes of our country. The gilded age was the epitome of inequality, books like "The Jungle" are a reminder of the bleak past of this nation.

Carter was not involved in a war directly, however his administration counted hawks like Brzezinski whose policies are part of the current clusterfuck we find ourselves in. Although I believe Carter was a decent man, he is also one of the main reasons why the Dems continued pushing towards the right. The fact that he tried to deal with Americans as adults and got booted basically because of that, says a lot about our country.

We like to believe this country was something which never was.

There were a few "golden years" for the white middle class in this country, namely the late 40s, 50s, and part of the 60s. But we need to realize that two decades out of 200+ years of history are the exception, not the norm.

[Diclotican]

85. liberation

Liberation

True, the "Old good days" was maybe never there, for many it was less than good days, specailly if you was not part of the group who benefited from it most.. That be the gilded ages, or before, and after when poor war the norm, regardness of what you did with your life.. Even tho, many emigrants who was coming to US, in fact was making it rather good.. A cousin of my grandfather ended up with a large farm in Minesota, and he arrived in US with just what he had on his back, and two hands and two foots.. So even tho he might never been thar rich as the really rich was in US, he was better of than my grandfather, even tho he worked all his addult life from the age of 14, to his retairment at age 67... He lived into his 80s, but he had bad health becouse of the work he had been into, and specially the last couple of years he had health problems who was given him hard times... But for a man who started his life in 1912, as offsprings of a farmer who not even owned his own land, I guess he managed well...

I know that the Carter Admin had his share of hawks, and who failed missrably again and again, and he could be accused of many things.. In his last book, as I understand it, he is rather candid with his faults as president, something that is rather new and fresh. A president tend to try to tell the good sides of his administration, not the bad ones. And with this book, he have been more than just candid with most of what he did, and did not, but should have been doing when he was in Office... But I belive also, thar Carter as a man, was a decent man, who wanted to the right thing allways.. But who sometimes failed, missrabley becouse what he wanted, and what reality was given him was opposites.. He was in trouble since 1976 (same year as I was born by the way) to 1980, when he got the one problem, after the after with an economy, debt, political, and social problems all the time.. The late 1970s was a place where US was in turmoil after loosing the Vietnam War, and was also in a lot of other problems as pointed out before...

The US have allways been to the right of most of europe i belive.. It started long befor carter, but maybe got into a higher gear when Carter was in office.. And today, even the center/left in US is far to the right, compared to europe, where the left have managed to survive even the breake up of Soviet Union... What is called "conservatives" in Europe, would posible mean Center/Right in US, and I would belive your current president, is far more to Center/Right, than Center/left..

Wel, US are a young nation, and it can be difficult to try to reason to young kids when they wanted to go out playing. Ever tried to do it, with a child who wanted something, but you have to explain for it, that he could not have it?.. Its hell to play... And he was trying to wake up americans, to the reality of what the world was all about - and as you pointed out, got booted for the efford.. Americans is a really spoiled nation, who are used to be told that you are the greatest place on earth. Anyone who dear talk to america, as adults often do, can be booted, becouse it is not what the americans want.. They want panem et circenses. Not leders who really was TALKING to you, about problems..

And it is also a point, that no president after Carter have really TALKED to the american public, in a way as grown ups do... It have been a lot of "baby-talk" from your leaders the last 30 or so year now

True, but as everyone know, if you do not have a middle class who is surviving for a long time, then the contry can fail missrable in the end. No country where the have's and the do not have's have been to large, have survived for long time.. And US are not different from every one else in that case

Diclotican

[JDPriestly]

91. I like Carter. Always did.

[Quantess]

30. Whoops, I'm still learning Swedish.

snart kommer jag att flytta till sverige.

I think that's correct.

[Diclotican]

61. Quantess

Quantess

Problerly better swedish;). But you know, we can understand eatch other to some degree, as norwigian and swedish are not that difficult to understand for a norwigian.. In fact, Denmark, Sweden and Norway can for the most part, understand eatch other perfectly, even tho some dialects can be difficult to understand.. And we can also read eatch others language withouth problems. Something that have made posible a lot of comunications that is difficult to "understand" from one outside our little familiy of country's. Even tho we bitch a lot, we are like a family up here in Scandinavia.

Diclotican

[AspenRose]

28. They have really good chocolate though.

Some of the best chocolate I've ever had was from Sweden.

[Diclotican]

62. AspenRose

AspenRose

I disagree.. Have you ever tasted the chocolate from Freia, an norwigian company that have made chocolade for many, many years?.. Thats good chocolate.. But the swedish one is good thats true;)

Diclotican

[AspenRose]

80. Well, in order to make a fair assessment, I'll need to take a taste test

;-)

[Diclotican]

83. AspenRose

AspenRose

If you PM with your adress, I would gladely give you a taste of a Freia product;).. Its kalled Melkesjokolade, one of the best scocolades in the world.. Or I can also trow in something named Kvikk lunch. Also a great chocolade from the same company:P

Diclotican

[JackRiddler]

54. And without the American ideology that requires happiness and...

equates unhappiness with moral depravity.

[maxsolomon]

57. not to mention expensive hooch

and utter lack of maple syrup.

my daughter was very pleased to get back to the states.

[Diclotican]

69. maxsolomon

maxsolomon

Wel, a socity is more than inexpensive hooch, and maple syrup.... And for the record, you could ble able to find maple syrup in Sweden if you just was looking after it. Even in Norway you can get Maple Syrup in stores, you wil find it many places.. You se, the reason you might not se it everywere is becouse in Scandinavia we do not use Maple Syrup as you do in US.. In fact it is a rather new things in most of scandinavia... But for at least the last decade you could have been able to find maple syrup and aple pie, made in US style many places

You just need to look after the stuff you wanted..

Diclotican

[maxsolomon]

89. Oh, she found it alright

she travelled from Linkoping to Gotheberg to get it, and we heard about it every week until she did!

you will never convince me that a society is more than inexpensive liquor and maple syprup. ;)

[old mark]

65. Like Vanuatu 5-O? Book, em, Lars!...nt

[elleng]

8. Wouldn't mind, but for the climate!

[virgogal]

14. Much of Sweden has a temperate climate. Not bad at all.

[deaniac21]

6. A nation of 9.4 million people of which 7.7 million are Swedes

and .5 million are Finns.

[virgogal]

10. Yep,and they want their immigrants to become "Swedes". Diversity.

isn't one of Sweden's strongpoints.

[Quantess]

11. They took in more Iraqi refugees than any other nation, though.

Exponentially more than the US.

[Diclotican]

16. virgogal

virgogal

It can be, becouse Sweden are not an emigrant nation like US.. Who also have a lot of more space, where newcomers could settle... In most of "old Europe" the old "tribal thingy" is still a fact of life, and if you want to be part of it, you have to be like the others in the "tribe"... Or at least try to comform to the life of the tribe you are in...

When US have at least 1000 year under their belt, then they might have voice to say about it all.. But as US are a young, and in most an emigrat country, they do not have the same history, and not the same experienses as Sweden, and most of "old europe" have... And maybe not even have the right to jugde others, even tho you disagree with what they do...

Diclotican

[virgogal]

22. I didn't say I disagreed with Sweden---not at all.

I was just responding to a post with demographic stats.

[pampango]

64. Like most places the left embraces cultural diversity better than the right.

"The former Social Democratic Government declared 2006 as the Year for Cultural Diversity.'

The Social Democratic party was one of the liberal coalition parties that ruled Sweden for so long.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18649447

The conservative coalition won the 2006 election and again in 2010. Cultural Diversity is not a priority now, particularly with the Sweden Democrats winning enough votes to get representation.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. I don't think demographics is really the problem here.

[liberation]

42. Ahhh... the smell of red herring.

Very a propos for a thread involving Sweden ;-)

[deaniac21]

82. Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must cut down

the mightiest tree in the forest... with... a herring!

[WeekendWarrior]

12. Love this. nt

[Yavin4]

15. Face It, The Swedes Are A More Advanced Civilization

We are a nation of idiots who think that being a pseudo plumber will make us multi-millionaires one day.

[Codeine]

17. "A nation of idiots"

Speak for yourself.

[GoCubsGo]

39. And, the sad thing is...

...a fat chunk of those people who voted for "A" probably think that's the society they live in here. I wouldn't necessarily call this a "nation of idiots", but there sure are a lot of them here. Maybe not all idiots, but a lot of them are damn ignorant.

[liberal N proud]

19. What happened

Everyone left Europe because to come to a better life. All they would have had to do is wait a generation or two.

Did all those immigrants in the late 1800's - early 1900's ruin American?

[elleng]

20. They left because of governments of the time (to some extent.)

Times change!

[slackmaster]

21. That kind of breakdown doesn't really tell you anything about peoples' standard of living

What matters more to me is what life is really like for the 80% who aren't rich, or for the bottom 20%.

I don't buy into the whole envy thing, the idea that someone having a lot of stuff detracts from the lives of others.

[liberation]

43. "standard of living" is directly dependent on wealth, and thus its distribution.

But that is not what the question being asked was anyways...

[slackmaster]

45. I don't accept the premise that the amount of wealth in a society has a limit

More wealth can always be created, therefore one person accumulating a large amount of it does not necessarily inhibit the ability of others to do so as well.

[liberation]

49. And that has what to do exactly with "standard of living?"

To answer your tangential point: Our reality, and the fact that it is finite, really does not give two shits what you accept or do not. Nature is not a democracy... there are no infinite resources, and thus the amount of wealth which can be created is finite as well.

[slackmaster]

51. It has everything to do with standard of living

Standard of living is correlated positively with wealth.

there are no infinite resources

What limits do you believe constrain the human mind?

I think your attitude is self-limiting.

[Greyhound]

56. LOL, so as long as you're happy to be a serf, you will be happy...

:rofl:

[slackmaster]

63. I am not a serf, I have never been a serf, I will never be a serf

Nobody has to be a serf. Being a serf is a choice.

[The2ndWheel]

67. "What limits do you believe constrain the human mind?"

Attitude?

Haven't we boiled everything down to the one thing that everyone must consider to be wealth? Seems like that is indeed a limit of the human mind.

The problem in having no limit to wealth in a society is that it then has no meaning. All the debt, and trillions here, and whatever there, don't mean anything. Tax rates would have no meaning. Why have a minimum wage? If there is no maximum, how could there be a minimum? If these numbers mean nothing, why have them? Why not just put $100 million in the bank account of every citizen, and call it a day? Hell, forget about the $100 million limit, and just give people an unlimited amount of credit. Actually, you don't even need to call it credit.

Again, why are we constrained into thinking what wealth is? Can someone buy a house with a box of paper clips? Why not? Nothing constrains the human mind, so it should be acceptable.

[liberation]

70. Just because you slacked when learning about basic logic...

... it doesn't mean that the rest of us did.

Seriously, are you trying to win an argument by "deafening" your opponent with your logical dissonance? Under what sort of context the succession you just wrote in your post even makes logical sense? LOL

[slackmaster]

73. Argumentum ad hominem = automatic loss

Nobody has been presented a coherent refutation to my premise that wealth has no specific limit.

[liberation]

74. Obviously, "coherent" does not mean what you think it does.

Technically you posted the first ad hominem, thus... you're recognizing you lost the argument now. Thanks I guess.


Again: wealth depends upon resources, in our reality resources are finite. In case you don't know what the term "finite" means, it is basically another way of saying "limited." Your whole assumption that wealth is infinite is thus flawed. However, unlike wealth, which is finite, human stupidity is not. So thanks for proving Einstein correct.

LOL

[slackmaster]

76. Please point out where you believe I posted an ad hominem

You attacked me by inferring that I wasn't paying attention in logic class.

However, unlike wealth, which is finite, human stupidity is not. So thanks for proving Einstein correct.

What is the limit on wealth?

Why can everyone not be wealthy?

How does someone else's wealth limit your capacity to create and enjoy more wealth?

Do you have any idea?

[liberation]

78. I guess "ad hominem" is also another think that does not mean what you think it does

you said that "I think your attitude is self-limiting." So you were discussing my character, ergo making an ad hominem argument.

I am tired of your tangential logical dissonance. You know damned well what I said, so stop playing coy or making specious arguments.


Everybody can be "wealthy" and that still does not mean that wealth is "infinite." There is no infinite number of people, is there? Jeez.

[slackmaster]

79. The arrogance in your posts and your lack of imagination illustrate why I parted ways with the left

The problem with your way of thinking is that the only ways you can see to elevate the lower 80% all involve bringing the top 20% down. And you would probably call that "liberation". The way I see it, wealth redistribution is a piss-poor substitute for wealth creation.

Everybody can be "wealthy"...

Thanks for admitting that you were wrong in the first place.

[Joe Chi Minh]

72. You don't buy it? It's not for sale. It been established by a number of studies.

Remember about opinions and facts...

[merqz]

24. it;'s an absurd poll

because wealth distribution isn't a cause, it's an effect. Iow, they are asking people would you rather live in A or B w/o differentiating the relative tradeoffs one makes to get either result. It may very well be that a majority of Americans would prefer the Swedish SYSTEM (iow the ruleset that results in such disparity), but saying you prefer the result does not mean you prefer the system that creates it - the relative tradeoffs.

Personally, while I think the US system has warts aplenty, I prefer our system. However, if I merely looked at results w/o the day to day tradeoffs, I would prefer the Swedish.

As an extreme example, if you concentrated on crime victimization (Vs. wealth) most people would rather live in Saudi Arabia (or Japan as a less extreme example) where crime rates are much lower. However, if you look at the tradeoffs imposed to get such results, you may get an entirely different poll result.

[Quantess]

37. well... aren't political actions, in themselves ...absurd?

I really do enjoy engaging with intelligent teenagers.

[grahamhgreen]

40. What group do you belong to? The richest 20%?

[liberation]

44. It is not absurd at all

You are trying to muddle a quantitative study (wealth distribution) by inducing your own qualitative considerations (the tradeoffs which you may consider or not acceptable at a personal level).

[BlueCheese]

26. I think wealth inequality is a sympton of something wrong...

... with the US at this moment.

However, this question by itself doesn't provide enough information to answer it. First of all, does "Middle" mean the middle 20%? If so, it seems odd to skip over those in the 60-80% range. Second, what if Society A were the Soviet Union, which had a very even distribution of wealth, but not very much wealth? I doubt many Americans, or Europeans, or anyone, would still choose A once the boxes were opened.

[Quantess]

31. self delete

[BlueCheese]

32. Self-delete

Peace treaty signed, diplomatic relations normalized, nothing to see here.

[Quantess]

33. In that case, I apologize.

I am sorry. I tried to read too fast.

[BlueCheese]

35. It's cool.

My reply was probably overheated too.

Now I'm off to visit the Ottoman Empire. Don't tell me that's gone too... :)

[Quantess]

36. Have a good time!

:hi:

[TexasObserver]

34. Yes, it's obscene, and the graph shows it.

[waiting for hope]

38. I'm third generation Swedish ...

and I would move there in a heartbeat if it just were not as cold in the winter ... brrrr.

[loudsue]

41. 92% ......Ninety-two percent!!!!! So....who does congress represent?

The 92 percent, or the corporations and the wealthy?

Lemmee guess.

[liberation]

48. The single most represented sector of the US population in both houses and the Executive branches...

... is actually the smallest minority among our country's population ironically: millionaires.

And it is not by accident, nor it is a new development, this country was founded on an idea of democracy which was patrician to say the least.

The idea of "democracy" used in this country is not as much as for the good of the people as it is for their control. In the same sense that the idea of "morality" is used by religions for social control more than it is to actually bless their practitioners.

[colsohlibgal]

46. On The Other Side Of The Big Pond

If I were still in my 20's I'd move to France or somewhere in Scandinavia, no doubt in my mind, oui.

Bernie Sanders spent time with politicians from Denmark and said the head of the conservative party there was way left of our democratic party - not everyone, there are some real liberals there, but the party establishment itself.

Here in the US we're getting pretty close to game over. Glenn Beck holds a rally and it's all over MSN - the One Nation rally got pretty much ignored. This has been par for the course since the January 2001 inauguration/coup completion of the Bush/Cheney crowd.

Plus when all else fails with all the computer voting they can often flip a 52-48 loss to a 52-48 win - Bush/Kerry and Cleland/Demint as prime examples.

Then there are our people. The old adage of "never underestimating the stupidity of the american people" seems in play - 40 million or so people voted for Dubya each time, the second time after they saw his act for 4 years. That's just stunning to me, and firms up my idea that a ton of republicans would vote for a bag of rocks if it was at the top of the ticket.

[BrklynLiberal]

52. THE BEST Front page ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[truedelphi]

84. Was this really the "Daily Mirror?" Or a satire version?

Curious mind wants to know.

[BrklynLiberal]

90. It was the real deal. the British were gobsmacked that the US re-elected that dolt.

[fascisthunter]

47. sick... and yet the rich whine for more

[BrklynLiberal]

50. duh...Perfect reflection of the incredible ignorance of the American public.

They have no f**kin idea of what kind of society they actually live in.
This is just like those wheelchair riding, oxygen tank breathing seniors who go out and scream about wanting the govt to keep their hands off their health care!!!

All the idiots think they will be millionaires someday, so they do not want to tax the millionaires.

http://markmaynard.com/?p=7501

<snip>


The best part of the article is the contribution by Thomas Frank, the author of What’s the Matter with Kansas?: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America. Here’s a highlight:

….Right-wing politics has become a vehicle for channelling this popular anger against intellectual snobs. The result is that many of America’s poorest citizens have a deep emotional attachment to a party that serves the interests of its richest.

Thomas Frank says that whatever disadvantaged Americans think they are voting for, they get something quite different:

“You vote to strike a blow against elitism and you receive a social order in which wealth is more concentrated than ever before in our life times, workers have been stripped of power, and CEOs are rewarded in a manner that is beyond imagining… It’s like a French Revolution in reverse in which the workers come pouring down the street screaming more power to the aristocracy.”

As Mr Frank sees it, authenticity has replaced economics as the driving force of modern politics. The authentic politicians are the ones who sound like they are speaking from the gut, not the cerebral cortex. Of course, they might be faking it, but it is no joke to say that in contemporary politics, if you can fake sincerity, you have got it made.

And here, according to the author of the article, is the big takeaway message from all of this… “If people vote against their own interests, it is not because they do not understand what is in their interest or have not yet had it properly explained to them. They do it because they resent having their interests decided for them by politicians who think they know best. There is nothing voters hate more than having things explained to them as though they were idiots. As the saying goes, in politics, when you are explaining, you are losing. And that makes anything as complex or as messy as healthcare reform a very hard sell.”

<snip>

[AldebTX]

53. That Really Drives The Point Home

After visiting Sweden...I'll take it :-)

[defendandprotect]

55. Where on this planet do you not become a victim of US foreign policy....

or corporatism?

[GETPLANING]

59. The best week of my life was with two Swedish college girls

It was the week of Fiestas del Pilar in Zaragoza, and I was in a crowded Irish pub looking for some English speakers. Across the bar were two pretty girls who obviously weren't speaking Spanish, so I worked my way over to them and asked, "Excuse me, are you two speaking English?"

"Noooo," they said, "we are speaking Sweeeeeedish!"

"Oh!" said I, "I have been in the city for a few weeks, and my head is tired from learning Spanish at such a clip, if you will just have a conversation with me in English, I will buy all your drinks!"

The first one pushed a bar stool to me and said OK, and the rest of the story is as good as you can imagine. They left for Sweden the next week. I never saw them again but if all Swedes are as cool as these two, it's worth freezing your butt off nine months of the year.

True story, swear to god. And it's Fiestas del Pilar this week, by coincidence.

[liberation]

71. LOL small world!

I lived near Zaragoza. My dad was deployed in the AF base over there.

Good times... good times ;-)

[Drunken Irishman]

75. America...

My family is here and we have NBA and college football.

I couldn't give up that.

[zehnkatzen]

81. More Americans are "socialist" than they want to believe. k/r n/t

[Beavker]

87. Also proof Americans as a whole are morons

I think that percentage is accurate despite the small sampling. Yet there is apparently a lot of Americans that don't vote this way. Somehow, they don't understand that Democrats push for A. Republicans push to keep or steepen B even more. Why are we so friggin' stupid!

[ProfessionalLeftist]

88. Costa Rica. n/t