Keith interviewing Jim Craik the man who lose his home

[nadinbrzezinski]

due to our new and improved fire protection district laws, the ones that some folks do applaud. I suggest people realize that when franklin started a PUBLIC fire department, we had FIRE COMPANIES competing for bidness and at times letting property burn.

Yes, fire departments COST MONEY... lord do I know it... a property equipped fire freighter, last times I checked runs over 3K for turnout, Scott Air Pack, radio and of course helmet and structural boots. An engine runs about a million bucks... but letting a property burn is so eighteenth century.

Oh and I am not even adding the cost of ... training and certification.

[merqz]

1. My sympathy for him could fit in a thimble

He was offered fire protection for $75 a year, and MADE THE STUPID CHOICE not to get it.

[kohodog]

2. maybe there's a larger point here

****

[merqz]

5. There are many

Among those are that additional freedom of choice brings additional responsibility...

Disclaimer: I work in Fire Safety

[kohodog]

15. have you no compassion?

Fuck the firefighters who let the house burn. Should a doctor let a person die because they have no insurance?

Good Night and Good Luck.

[merqz]

19. Good night to you

When you are ready to discuss this without hyperbole & bogus analogies, get back to me

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Monique1]

13. If you listened to the end - he said

he didn't refuse - forgot about it. Did you all ever forget something that is not a monthly bill to pay?

This is privitization folks.

[merqz]

20. He CLAIMED that

It MAY be true

[newspeak]

102. I heard him on KO and he said that he forgot to pay

and mentioned when the old fire chief was there things were different. He also mentioned that his house wasn't the only house to burn down--I believe he said there were three that he knew of and a barn that had horses in it. Or should the horses suffer also? He also lost pets in this fire.

[Posteritatis]

140. Let's all imply he's lying! That way we can continue to spit on him!

Yay!

[handmade34]

3. I'm sorry for you n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Why?

I live in a city... it has a fire department, and it more or less will respond to any fire. We have brown outs, but still.

[handmade34]

171. my response

was to the first post "My sympathy for him could fit in a thimble" and I just didn't have words to explain how sad that sounded.. It sounds like Christian Republican punishment to me... I could never watch as someone was suffering and not do anything if it was in my power to help (even if they hadn't been totally responsible)

the man whose house burnt down said when he called 911 he offered to pay them to come out... same as car insurance; if you forget your payment and the coverage lapses, then you pay to get the car fixed if you get in an accident. Now, that is not to say that I don't think this issue is serious and we need to figure out what is going on in this country...

[Renew Deal]

4. I hope you never make any stupid decisions.

[merqz]

7. I do

and I take responsibility for them. This guy made a ridiculous decision, an irresponsible one, and one where the risks were HARDLY hidden.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alfredo]

40. He said he forgot. He's not a young man and maybe not as

sharp as he used to be.

By not fighting the fire, the department put the neighbor's homes in jeopardy. One did sustain damage. Theneighbors had paid so they turned their hoses onto that house instead.

He offered to pay them anything they asked, but they still wouldn't help him.

[merqz]

43. Because such an offer, made under duress

Is useless in a court of law to collect. Fwiw, that scenario had happened before and they were unable to collect anything.

This reminds me of the old Steve Martin skit...

[alfredo]

45. You are assuming he would have reneged on the deal.

[merqz]

48. No, I'm not

I am saying it is not enforcable IF he reneges. And who decides ON the cost structure? What is the "cost"? That's a very problematic issue.

[alfredo]

53. The cold cruelty of the corporate mindset that stands out here.

Not everything is dollars and cents. There is human decency, which seemed to be lacking with the fire fighters.

[merqz]

60. I wouldnt' be surprised if they were issued that order

I'm not saying I agree with the system as setup. I want to make that clear. I am saying that GIVEN that system, the burden is on the homeowner. The FD depends on these fees in order to be able to provide these servcices to county residents. Without them, you have city residents paying for the county residents' protection. And if people know that the FD will respond and service those who DO NOT pay, they create a perverse incentive not to pay

[TexasObserver]

138. Wrong again. It's enforceable as a civil claim.

Duress means someone put a gun to your head and said "sign this or I'll blow your brains out."

Duress means "sign this or I'll throw your kid over this cliff."

[TexasObserver]

136. You don't know what you're talking about.

Stick to repeating weak ass right wing memes. Stay away from opining about the law of duress, which would not be applicable if they accepted his offer.

[newspeak]

104. so why wasn't the measly seventy-five dollars automatically put into something

like property tax where you can just pay it with your bill? And, what happens when there are people in the house, does the fireman just watch the house while people are screaming in agony?

Of course, I bet the barn with horses there was some screaming. You know how inhumane it is to watch the suffering because somebody didn't pay a fekkin seventy five dollars? They could have just billed him afterwards, how about that? This isn't, yet, the return of the damn greedy robber barons.

[GoCubsGo]

164. To those of us who don't have a lot of money

Seventy-five dollars is not "measly". It's a hell of a lot of money.

[Fumesucker]

9. I've made plenty of stupid decisions..

And I've paid for a lot of them too, sometimes quite literally in blood.

[merqz]

55. Columbian Proverb:

One learns best with blood

[Swamp Rat]

152. Swamp Rat Pro-verb: Help stop a person's house from burning and save the animals inside.

One learns best with compassion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I am saying that was what done IS FUCKING WRONG

is this so damn hard to understand? THEY SHOULD have deployed their damn hoses.

[Fumesucker]

11. They would then be obligated to deploy on every fire in the entire county..

And the unincorporated portion of the county would then get fire protection that only the residents of the city were paying for.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. YOU CHARGE FOR IT IN YOUR COUNTY ASSESTMENT

WE CALL THEM TAXES. Is this so damn difficult.

I guess it is so 20th century.

[Fumesucker]

22. It's two separate entities..

The county politicians obviously do not see fire protection as being something they wish to support.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. We are having a problem communicating

I am telling you how it is done... and the BIG CITY FIRE DEPARTMENT HAS RESPONDED INTO COUNTY BEFORE, IF YOU PAY 75 BUCKS.

Now where I live that means they have the authority to cross jurisdictions. Not that I have ever done this before, or anything. Hell, my jurisdiction lines included an international border by the way. Yes, I do have a clue on this.

[Fumesucker]

56. It's clear they have the authority to cross the border..

I doubt the city residents want to pay extra taxes in order to fund firefighting for the entire county for which the county taxpayers won't pay..

And that's my guess how it would wind up if the city FD were to extinguish a blaze for which they were not "subscribed"..

Knowing firefighters I think there's more to this than immediately meets the eye.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. SHH... it is not the city residents who pay more

IT IS THE RURAL RESIDENTS who pay extra per land grant they have to cover for that firefighting

I am willing to bet it was the RURAL residents who bitched and moaned (like they do locally) and the city was more than willing to oblige, unlike here, where they have been told clearly that NO, we are not going to cover the firefighting and that YES they are going to PAY TAXES to cover for urban firefighters responding to rural districts.

I am willing to bet it don't work that differently in the deep south... why? THIS GOES BACK as a system to the home country and the Midlands, for example.

[Fumesucker]

63. That's what I'm saying..

The rural residents refuse to pay the taxes but the city residents don't want to be taxed for the whole damn county.

The city has no legal mechanism to extract taxes from the county residents unless the county politicians want to go along with it which they apparently do not..

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. They SHOULD be charged

like they are here. PERIOD. Yes, it is that simple. If they don't like it, they can move. If they don't, there are civil ways to deal with it.

Our local crzees, mostly in the back country, make a lot of noise. They are STILL charged that tax. See how it works? It takes political will. I guess they have none.

[Fumesucker]

77. The rural residents have plenty of political will..

And their will is that they not be taxed for something they think they can make someone else pay for..

Absolutely bog typical wingnuts, the hills are full of them around here.

Keep in mind that Al Gore didn't even win his home state, Tennessee, in 2000.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. I know, the borderer thinking going to at least the 16th

century. Once this inland Empire falls apart, I will not miss it.

Of course I hope successor states charge the bible belt for any mutual aid needed. And I mean it. And through the roof.

[LanternWaste]

65. I doubt anyone wants to pay taxes

"I doubt the city residents want to pay extra taxes"

I doubt anyone *wants* to pay taxes... or even more taxes, but we do-- as the greater good quite often outweighs the personal desire.

[Fumesucker]

69. Then the city taxpayers will end up paying for all the county services..

Because as soon as the rural wingnuts figure out that the city taxpayers will pay for their services they will vote out anyone who asks them to pay any taxes at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. We have that problem here

and we have been pretty effective at dealing with it.

This TRAGEDY should serve as a teaching moment... not that it will.

[LanternWaste]

86. All moments are teaching moments...

All moments are teaching moments, yet many students refuse to learn the lesson. Let's hope this will compel more students to study a wee bit harder :hi:

[LanternWaste]

83. Um... again (ahem) I doubt anyone *wants* to pay taxes...

Um... again (ahem) I doubt anyone *wants* to pay taxes... greater good vs. personal desires and all that.

"they will vote out anyone who asks them to pay any taxes at all." Such an absolute statement in the face of so many variables. I wish I had that kind of dogmatic absolutism.

[Fumesucker]

92. You left out the rest of my statement...

Where I said that if they find out they can get services someone else pays for..

Hell, they wouldn't even pay taxes for bombing brown people if they could figure out some way to get someone else to pay for it (which to some extent they actually have done).

[merqz]

29. And I agree that imo that's a poor choice

However, I agree that GIVEN the fact that he was then given the option of paying $75 for protection from the city FD, AND he refused to do so, that the responsibility shirked was his, and his ONLY

[merqz]

27. His district DOES NOT HAVE A FIRE DEPT!

Do you not understand this? He has the option then of paying the city to come out to his jurisdiction and service him. He chose not to pay for this option.

[msanthrope]

89. But, the county voted no on tax assessments for fire protection--

Look, I agree, there SHOULD be tax assessments for services such as these.

But this guy's county voted no, 19-1.

(The flamebait thread documented this.)

And this guy--who owns multiple properties--decided not to pay.

[JustAmused]

166. But that counnty voted not to.

Did no one read this article????
The county voted down paying anything to the city for this service. In that case, no it is NOT included in his county assessment.

By the way, South Fulton is actually only half of a city. It is the part of that city that is in TN. The rest of the city is in Kentucky.

[Lars39]

167. Cities can and do sue counties and visa versa in TN.

[malaise]

36. 100% correct

Disgraceful and cruel.

[Renew Deal]

39. I didn't reply to you

;)

[DearAbby]

90. I agree

Then charge the family for cost and expenses. That way the burning house is no danger to the rest of the neighborhood or causing an out of control wild fire. The dept was there anyway for that reason.

[TexasObserver]

141. This is the correct answer.

If you signed up and paid the $75, you get the fire department response for that amount. But if you don't sign up and pay, you are charged the actual cost of the fire department coming out, which could be several thousand dollars. It's a civil claim for damages, and the fire dept could sue for it, and probably lien the property for that claim.

Which is the smarter policy? Letting a home that has value on the tax rolls burn down, or saving it and its tax value, then asserting a claim for the costs of putting the fire out? The latter, of course, is more sound and makes far more sense.

The penalty for failing to pay the $75 per year should be an assessment of full costs for the fire department response, not a refusal of the fire department to put the fire out.

[DearAbby]

144. Ding ding ding

[bluethruandthru]

170. great answer! n/t

[phleshdef]

12. Whats next? Charging people for police protection from burglars?

Didn't pay the 75 bucks? Got an armed robber in your house? Too fucking bad right? This is the path your logic is leading us down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. That is libertarian thinking for you

I did EMS for ten years, in a place where we charged NOTHING. We had volunteers who manned those rigs for free. We worked on donations. I know how damn expensive this EMS \ Fire bidness is. We used to fund them with an Assessment fee we used to call taxes. There are days. And you are correct, one of these days Americans will wake up in a hell they will barely recognize. But hey, NO TAXES.

[phleshdef]

26. Even a lot of libertarians believe in basic protection, police, fire department, emergency resp, etc

This is more like anarchy. No one defending this insane kind of policy has any interest in maintaining a civil society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Some folks are...

just saying.

[WolverineDG]

25. that's what the sheriff's department is for

jeez louise, the number of people here who need to crack open a civics book is astonishing.

dg

[merqz]

34. It astounds me too

The reality is this. One does not have to believe in the concept of voluntary pay for fire depts (as existed in this county) where the county for whatever reason does not fund one, but the city gives the option of paying a fee for them to service county residents... to believe that GIVEN such a system, the homeowner has the burden to pay the $75 or he's TSOL if his house burns down.

[phleshdef]

50. My civics is fine. Its your ability to read and interpret what was said that is coming up short.

I'm illustrating the type of precedent being set by this type of policy. There are certain kinds of public services that we should in fact be able to count on, no matter what. Police protection, fire department fire intervention and emergency responders are all examples of those kinds of things. So if you are ok with charging people a fee for fire department service and then refusing them that protection if they for some reason didn't pay it, then one could conclude that you are fine with applying that same precedent to other similar public services. Just about anyone with an ounce of common sense and reading comprehension could have read my comment and figured that out pretty easily. I'm sorry that you have difficulties on those fronts.

[WolverineDG]

135. Actually I understand what's going on quite fine

And yes, I *am* fine with charging county residents whose property is not within the city limits & aren't already paying a tax to the county for fire protection a fee to provide FD services. But then, I understand how local governments work & realize you can't get something for nothing no matter how nice it sounds.

dg

[Renew Deal]

51. So when are you going to answer my question?

Should the fire department allow people to burn to death in the house if service isn't paid for? We have already found out that 4 pets died in the fire. They have also allowed several horses to die in a barn fire that wasn't covered.

[WolverineDG]

133. I believe that in one of the numerous articles posted

the department stated that if someone's life was in jeopardy, they would respond. As for the pets & horses, tonight was the first I'd heard of that. There is no mention of it in any of the articles that were posted yesterday.

dg

[LanternWaste]

93. Precisely.

Precisely. One of the major advances of The Enlightenment was that in many cases, the greater common good outweighs the individual or personal desire. That ijn effect, one person, regardless of income or class level, has little to no bearing on the overwhelming catastrophes that may affect us all, and that only together may we overcome these obstacles.

Yet we have a generation of people who have talked themselves into believing that they are stronger and more resilient than what chance can throw at them. A gaggle of little emperors without any clothes... and a cold wind always blows, making it that much more difficult to better assure everyone of something to wear... albeit not a royal purple robe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Beautifully said

and just PUUURRRFECT

I wish I could recommend this post..

I highly dislike Libertarians. In theory it sounds great... in practice... not so much.

[butterfly77]

41. So what if he..

lived in an apartment or condo and everyone paid their taxes but him,should they just let his apartment burn while the apartments beside,under or above are catching fire also,.

[HughMoran]

129. My right-wing libertarian live off the land, who needs government uncle-in-law agrees with you 100%

:eyes:

[madfloridian]

139. Oh jeez, another zero tolerance tough person.

Forgetting that in times of tragedy people need understanding.

Intolerance personified.

[grahamhgreen]

143. You have lost your humanity.

It's not to late to find it

[CBGLuthier]

165. Liberal love dried up at the tit?

Cruel fucking world you people want to live in. Cruel fucking world. I have some suggestions where you can place your thimble.

[fasttense]

172. Yes, and the fire department ended up spending well over $75

There was the fire break that had to be built behind his house so the corn field wouldn't burn and the fire spread. And then they had to come out to put out his neighbor's lawn. I'm sure all those actions cost a whole lot more than $75. Those actions along probably cost more than putting out the small initial fire.

Now, not only do you have to make sure you pay your $75 for fire protection, you have to be prepared to build a fire break so your neighbor's house fire wont catch your house and property on fire.

This is just so stupid.

[Fumesucker]

6. I'm not sure that "applaud" is the correct term..

It's more like, "you pay your money (or not) and you takes your chances"..

The city just cannot afford to respond to every fire in the entire unincorporated county without those outside the city paying for the service. Wingnuts would purely love to get fire protection without the onus of them personally having to pay taxes.

I suspect that if the city put out one fire for which they were not paid their up front fee then there would be legal implications for any other fire that they didn't also extinguish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Yes they can

it is the way they have chosen to do this that is wrong.

You add a RURAL ASSESSMENT to the taxes... those same 75 dollars... to the yearly taxes...

That is how non libertarian counties do this. It is not that hard actually.

But whatever...

[Fumesucker]

18. It's not the county that has the FD..

It is the city, a separate governing entity without authority outside their borders.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Did they respond? Yes

they had the authority to enter the county. COUNTY ASSESSMENTS is the way you deal with URBAN FD entering COUNTY LAND.

Yes, it IS that simple.

Oh they had another name, TAXES. Is this so hard to understand?

Or is California that crazy? If we are the land of fruit and nuts for doing things like this... well then I am HAPPY to live in the land of fruit and nuts.

[kohodog]

31. I guess we are going to hell in a bucket

When people think like this. I rarely get upset on DU, but it seems the lack of compassion for our neighbors is everywhere. Thank you for standing up against this selfishness that is pervading.

[phleshdef]

44. I can't believe people think they can defend something like this on DU and not get called on it.

This is pure insanity. Its one of those moments when you look at all the ideological divisions we have amongst ourselves as Democrats and realize how petty all that is when you look at the most basic policies that separate us from the real right wing in this country. When it comes down to things like extending unemployment during the middle of a huge jobs recession or something as simple as believing we should make sure we attempt to stop someone's house from burning down, there is no reason in this world to honestly believe there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. What you are seeing is the less

acknowledged left wing libertarians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

What party has had the greatest growth since oh 1971?

The Libertarian Party. Why it cannot take power? It goes from the far right to the far left.

[kohodog]

58. I know what you mean

This is indefensible in my opinion.

[Fumesucker]

74. Can you show me a scenario then where the city residents won't end up paying for the county fires?

Because as soon as the rural wingnuts figure out that they get fire protection without paying for it they'll vote out anyone who even thinks about asking them to pay..

[kohodog]

76. burn baby burn

is this the solution that works?

[phleshdef]

79. I really don't care what your argument supporting a policy like this is. Its indefensible.

Its really simple for me. People's houses are on fire, the nearest fire department, if equipped to do it, shows up and puts it out. I don't give a shit about the rest. They can figure out a better way to fund it through taxes like most everybody else in this country does.

[Fumesucker]

96. In other words you can't show me a scenario where the city residents don't pay for the county..

People get the government they vote for, the county residents voted not to have a fire department, that is not the fault of those who live in the city.

Blame the county voters and the politicians they put in office for this fiasco.

[phleshdef]

100. I don't care to even think about it. Its not something that requires any thought beyond...

...the fact that there is a house on fire and there is a fire department equipped and close enough to make the house not be on fire anymore. This is not an issue that one needs to be wonkish about.

[Fumesucker]

105. What if their equipment is destroyed in fighting the fire?

Should the city residents then pay for replacing that equipment?

Keep in mind the homeowner paid *zero* toward city taxes or the fire department.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. HAVING DONE THE WORK

you do need to replace gear every so often ANYWAY...

Getting nozzles on new fire hoses is PITA by the way.

[phleshdef]

109. I really would give less of a shit. You don't stand by and let homes burn down if you can stop it.

This isn't the god damn 18th century.

[Fumesucker]

110. I bet you'd care if you got a huge fucking bill..

It's easy to put the onus on someone else..

The county voted 19-1 against increasing taxes for fire protection..

You get the government you vote for.

[phleshdef]

114. I don't care if they voted to force midgets to fuck polar bears while listening to Ace of Base.

You don't let someone's home just burn down. You don't put the neighbors property at risk while doing so. If you are really defending this, you need to turn in your Democrat card. I'm serious.

[Fumesucker]

123. I don't like it..

But living in the South utterly surrounded by wingnuts I understand why they did what they did.

It's either that or the city residents end up paying for the entire county. Then when the city goes broke paying for everyone else the surrounding wingnuts will be be laughing, pointing and calling them stupid liberals.

Nineteen to one against, you're not going to overcome that sort of political resistance.

[stranger81]

159. Best. Post. Of. The.Evening.

This place has really turned into something else lately. Something not good.

[petronius]

78. Refusing to castigate the FD is not the same as lacking compassion, being a libertarian,

or blending in with the Rs. The fire fighters did what they were legally and ethically obligated to do in this situation, and it's completely consistent to recognize that while still understanding that the county and the home owner made poor decisions...

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Ethically, not really

having eaten some smoke.

The county made horrible decisions et al, when it probably stopped charging rural residents taxes to cover fire fighting.

[petronius]

98. Yes, ethically - the FDs responsibility is to the city, and they don't have the right

to expend city resources, or risk firefighters/equipment, fighting an unauthorized fire, no matter how much they may want to do so (and I'd bet that a lot of them wanted to step in).

The county (government and residents) have made a very poor decision - it's not difficult to charge taxes for fire protection, and they're fools not to do it. But, the city shouldn't take the hit for the county's failure...

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. Have you ever done the work?

I have.

And no as a first responder you are required to like respond. There could be a lawsuit here.

What you think EMS could just leave a patient behind because they did not pay their fee?

[Fumesucker]

It sounds like the county residents are going to get their fire protection for nothing then..

They voted 19-1 against paying but they'll get it anyway..

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. If there is a federal investigation the county

could be put into receivership and they will get their taxes AND fire protection.

Depends how bad a lawsuit it is. Being county government don't mean you are excused from being stupid or liable.

[Fumesucker]

119. What is there to investigate?

I understand this is a fairly common arrangement..

It's a bit strange this all of a sudden became a huge story, I smell a red herring, I wonder what else is going on that someone doesn't want us to notice?

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. That this is the third or fourth of these stories that makes it

nationally? You mean exposing stupidity is the red herring here? It is stoopid... it is morally and ethically wrong, and I cannot wait for the empire to fall apart.

What you are smelling is that some folks have decided to expose stupidity, and it burns.

[divideandconquer]

137. The city should quit helping the county at all then

I live in Atlanta and the wingnuts in the suburbs and rural areas do the same thing to Grady hospital since it has a trauma and burn unit, then they laugh about mismanagement. Libertarians and RepuKKKes always want something for nothing and maybe this teachable moment will teach these mooches who are ruining our nation.

[petronius]

115. There won't be a lawsuit here. There was no patient. The FD was legally required

to NOT respond to this house.

Does it suck? Does the county have a bad policy? Do the firefighters feel bad? Does the homeowner deserve our sympathy? Should the county assess a fire tax and establish a department to protect its citizens? All yes. But none of that changes the fact that this situation played out in the legally and ethically correct way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Depends on where they go

and depends on whether they sue.

It is stupid and I cannot believe it, that people can even defend this.

Maybe I should vote to make sure my FD does not respond to fires in Riverside County, I mean not like they ever go there.

:sarcasm:

Or I was stupid to participate in mutual aid.

[kohodog]

32. I guess we are going to hell in a bucket

When people think like this. I rarely get upset on DU, but it seems the lack of compassion for our neighbors is everywhere. Thank you for standing up against this selfishness that is pervading.

[Angry Dragon]

134. I have always enjoyed your posts and have learned a great deal from them

but on this one you are missing the point and adding things that are not in the story

You talk about taxes

The city has no way to tax this person
and the county voted not to add this county assessment for fire protection
they thought it better that each home owner took care of that themselves

If you have a beef take it up with the county and not the city fire department

I would have had trouble just standing there and watching the house and animals burn

[JustAmused]

168. Great idea, however...

The city can not impose taxes on the county, and the county refused to tax itself to pay for the services. What part of that is hard to understand?
You keep saying it should be part of their taxes, and I agree with that. However, it explicitly is not, by vote of the county officials.

[hobbit709]

23. The fire chief already said they've put out fires before

And the people wouldn't pay up afterwards.

And if the guy who didn't want to pay extra, maybe he should lean on his county government to provide protection through his county taxes.

He wanted something for nothing and on this roll of the dice he had snake eyes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. That is why when you send your annual

property assessment you add the fire fee.

Yes, it is that easy. Yes people in rural areas (here in the back country) bitch to no end about it, but that is how you deal with it. FYI most counties in the US do not run fire departments... or have a coordinated fire command center, LA county (California) is one glaring exception to that.

[merqz]

38. Exactly

What the man did was profoundly selfish. HE is the scoundrel. He didn't want to pay for something he likely would not need, but IF he did need it, it would have a profound cost (the loss of his entire house). He made a selfish, stupid, venal decision. He paid the price.

The city FD relied on those payments to give them the extra personnel, equipment etc. to reach out to county residents. I would bet that the VAST majority of County residents paid. This idjit chose not to

[phleshdef]

88. Wanted something for nothing. Thank you Rush fucking Limbaugh.

Seriously, you don't have a policy like this in the first place, you make sure that people's house fires can get put out. Thats just a basic thing we DO in this society. You definately don't put neighbor's property in danger and let a guy's life burn down right before his eyes over 75 bucks. Disgusting, disgusting point of view.

[hobbit709]

160. I've been called a lot of things, some of them even true.

But this is the first time I've been honored with "Rush fucking Limbaugh"
:sarcasm: :rofl: :sarcasm: :rofl: :sarcasm: :rofl: :sarcasm: :rofl: :rofl:

[JustAmused]

169. LOL

Tell you what. Columbus isn't all that for from Winchester, KY. How about I call your fire department if I need one, and you can foot the bill for me?? Good idea huh??

[KansasVoter]

33. No different than not buying home owner insurance and then wanting State Farm to pay you.

[kohodog]

37. does state farm have fire trucks?

This is not insurance.

[merqz]

46. Actually, it is de facto insurance

You are paying a small fee for coverage in the unlikely event that you will need it. The coverage an insurance company pays is usually $$$, whereas the fire dept "pays it" back in services - when your house is on fire.

[kohodog]

54. and if you were lying unconscious on the road..

And the EMT found your ID and when they called in they said you hadn't paid the $75 fee I suppose he/she should walk away? First responders do not think like this, Neither do most Republicans.

[merqz]

62. Except it's a false analogy

Because written into the policy is that FF's WILL respond even to a non-payer IF there is danger to LIFE. This is not a protection of person's issue, it's merely as to property.

As a former first responder myself, one who currently works IN FIRE SAFETY, I do NOT agree with this system (voluntary pay for fire services). I am saying that GIVEN this system, the burden is on the homeowner.

[kohodog]

70. ok, I disagree with you

but am trying to understand where you are coming from. I heard that animals died in the fire. Do they not count? Why are you on this rant? Common decency would indicate to me that they should have turned on the hoses. They can sue later. But maybe they like watching fires. Who made the decision to withhold help? Where is your compassion? Because the system says it's ok to let it burn doesn't make it right.

[merqz]

81. I believe in basic principles

Like that people are responsible for their decisions. I think the decent thing to do would have been to save the man's house. I would also bet, as somebody who works in fire safety, that their supervisors ORDERED them not to. In a perfect world this would not happen. In MY world, this would not happen, because fire coverage would be paid for MANDATORILY. But GIVEN that this was not the system, the BURDEN rests on the homeowner.

[kohodog]

94. Isn't that the same argument used against

healthcare, social security, public education, and just about every other public service? I know you will say that it's apples to oranges but I disagree. Your argument falls flat unless you think the concept of a civil society is wrong. Step back a moment and look at what you've said in this thread. I think what you are promoting is indefensible and irresponsible.

[merqz]

95. It is no way analogous because you missed my point

My point is I don't argue against any of the above because I do think they should be public services. Again, I am not saying I agree with the system in place. But given that the county does not have a FD and given that the FD should get paid by the county to respond to the county, and given (unfortunately) that the mechanism of payment is on an individual basis., then the homeowner owns the burden.

Personally, I *do* believe fire services should be paid MANDATORILY by residents of a govt. body. That wasn't the case HERE.

They are disanalogous situations for those reasons.

[kohodog]

97. yawn

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Oh a world of difference

State Farm I cannot force you to buy it. A County Assessor should add those 75 bucks to the land fee. Sounds to me that it was taken off for POLITICAL reasons. HEY LESS TAXES... and he FORGOT to send it in, not refused to send it in. Don't tell me that you have never made that mistake.

[DURHAM D]

82. You are bouncing around the issues like wac-a-mole. nt

[phleshdef]

52. Since when do Dems believe people should have to show a receipt for common public services!

[grahamhgreen]

145. The selfishness is legend.

[varelse]

49. This issue doesn't seem to bring out the inner progressive in DU'ers

kind of sad, really. It says a lot about us, and not much of that is good.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. I blame the last 30 years

but it's been under the surface. This libertarian thinking goes back a long time to the borderer region in the UK... guess where a lot of the Borderer settled?

[Fumesucker]

66. It's the rural residents who are doing the libertarian thinking..

Not the city residents and not DUers either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. DU'ers are doing plenty of libertarian thinking

yes there is a LEFT wing libertarian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

As to the RURAL residents, CHARGE THEM THEIR FUCKING TAXES.

[Fumesucker]

85. Once again, the city has no legal mechanism for charging people that are not resident there..

Unless the county politicians agree to the taxes and I'll bet that any who do will be voted out of office posthaste.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

131. I'm shocked and chagrined

& really angry at these heartless people :mad:

[leftstreet]

57. Why doesn't the county have its own FD?

Sorry, late to the story

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Most COUNTIES do not have a FD

Rural districts at times have RURAL, mostly volunteer FD.

But very few COUNTIES in the US have a fire department or one coming close to one, LA county is the damn exception on this.

What this county does not have is an assessment to cover for fire response. We usually call them taxes. You know those 75 bucks could easily be part of the annual taxes.

[leftstreet]

72. Ah

My FD here is county

So did this guy's county opt out of assessments or something? Did they ever have it? Strange there isn't some kind of deal. Around here that's how it works.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. That is what it sounds like

SMALL counties, as in very small counties, usually in the North East, have county FD, since it is more cost effective at that point.

It sounds like 20 years ago rural residents got taxes lowered, in exchange for paying this optional fee. STUPID if you ask me.

[JustAmused]

173. Wrong on the facts...again.

Actually a quick google search found six california county fire departments....on the first page. County fire services are fairly common across the country, but apparently not in that perfect world that you live in...high enough to castigate the rest of us for not meeting your ideals.

[Diclotican]

73. nadinbrzezinski

nadinbrzezinski

Thank lord I live in a SIVILIZED country, where we pay for our fire fighters true the tax code, and where we are not afraid of loosing our home, to fire figher deny doing their job, becouse of "not paying its bill".. This is US at it worst..... How barbaric, primitive you still are over there... What a "hoot" US have been lately. Wel we kan off course loosing our homes to fire, but not becouse firefighters was not trying to do their best..

Yes, this is coming from "old europe" and from a corner of that "Old Europe" where we still have some decency when it came to what is public duty and not... Something I belive US lost for may year ago...

Diclotican

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. I did my EMS in a country where we didn't have to fear this

stupidity and EMS was done for free by volunteers.

There are days... and this is one of them.

Trust me, there are days that tests my patience. What you are seeing, and you have access to the libraries, is Borderer thinking going back a LONG Time, between England and Scotland. You are seeing that.

And it rears it's ugly head again.

[Diclotican]

116. nadinbrzezinski

nadinbrzezinski

True, and all honour to you, who is voluteers in EMS, you do a terrefic job, where you do it for just nothing and a heystack. I for one salute you for your works....

Yes, this is so horrible, and its like going back to the days of 1700s, or maybe even back to old Rome, in the age of Sulla and Marius.. Where whole blocks of houses could burn down the ground, becouse it was not firefighter to speak about.. Sulla was one of the biggest house owners at one point - becouse he started a private owned company, who for a "fire prize" bouth out owners who else had seen their homes burned to the ground... As fast as the house was bought, the fire brigades was out trying to protect the house as best as they could - and mr Sulla, a rich man himself, could gratulate himself with a new property... And Rome was never a City, where a fire was not near, rather the opposite, it was fair, faire allmoust every day, and sometimes, as in the great fire when Nero was Emperor, more than 2/3 of the city burn down to the ground.. I know Nero is accused of many things, but the burning was not his fault, and he was doing a lot of good, for they who lost everything in the fire.. He even opened the emperors own garders, and cheltered a lot of them, in maightshift buildings, to the the affected areas could be build up again. And he also codifized a lot of new building laws, who should stop a fire like this again.. Not that it worked, by the great emperors of the 100AD Rome was still a mudhill of a City compared to most hellenic City's around the empire... And Nero was surly not going around playing, and singning about the tragedy when Troy got burned after 10 year of greek warfare. Rather, as history is shown, the man was rather courgageous, and was runing from place to place, where the fire was, and was comanding the prefectures to do their best.. Even helping his subjects when able to.... But the good deeds was rightfully shaddowed by the evil ones.. And Nero is a good proof for what you can get, when you spoiled a kid from young age - and let him be a kid all his life... As long as the Emperor was able to listen to his advicors, the empire was in good hands.. But when he stopped listning, and was starting to act out (specially after he killed his mother) he was turning himself into a tyrant, a man everyone was afraid off

The old border thinking is raising its ugly head again, now in US. And we all know if we do not fight it, it wil end do us mutch harm.. Collectively as personal. Everyone with historic knowlegde understand this, but many do not, and I am scared that it would be far worse, before it got better again.. The evil of uncheced capitalism is something that must be undid, with strong remedies. Not just soft talk, and some promises of "reformes".

Last time, the capitalist forces was afraid of the working man, specially in Europe, it was not that long ago since the Russian Revolution, and long untill the 1980s, just singing the "Internationale" could scare the hell out of most boardrom in Europe.. Today, they still is afraid of "us".. But not as they once was.. And more to the point. In US, they have never been afraid of the working man and woman.. Everyone who wanted justise, was branded communist, socialist, and a traitor.. And most americans bouth into that idea, becouse as the official mantra goes. It dosen't exist any classes in US. Everyone could be the next US president, with just a little work.. And they often put in front, Abraham Lincon, a poor young man, who got educated, and finished law school, worked as a laywer for many years. And ended up as one of the greatest US president of all times..

What US need, is a revolution, and a greatly redistrubtion of wealth, from the 1 percent on the top, to the rest... I know I might be denied access to your amazing country becouse of this, but withouth a form of revolution, US is so fucked up, that no one can fix it withouth a breakdown of everything.. And I mean everything.. US have still the posibility to rebuild/fix what is wrong, but the window is closing faster and faster as times goes by...

Diclotican

[HipChick]

99. Keith just tweeted

For all who asked we're looking into organizing help for Gene Cranick, who lost his house to A-La-Carte Firefighting in TN. I'll advise

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. I might help buying the county residents a soul

[one_voice]

101. I haven't read all the details on this story..

however I will say, I don't think I could do this job, I wouldn't be able to stand there and watch someone's whole life burn down. I know myself and I know I couldn't do it.

What would have happened if someone was trapped in the house? Would they have been helped? I'm assuming they would have been, but like I said I don't know all the details, so I don't know how that would have worked.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. There were pets inside

so my guess is... sadly, they would have stood on the side.

[one_voice]

125. Oh, well I guess I gave them...

more credit than they deserve. The pets didn't make it? How do you sleep at night knowing you let another living creature die. Like I said, I would not have been able to stand there and do nothing.

[Cirque du So-What]

103. Has callous indifference become the new machismo?

Is it now considered 'sexy' to flaunt your lack of compassion? Does this 'sexiness' increase in direct proportion to the number of times you reiterate just how cold-blooded you are toward a family's plight?

[Fumesucker]

106. The callous indifference was the county that voted 19-1 not to have fire protection..

That is the basic problem, the county voted overwhelmingly not to be taxed for fire protection while the city voted to have that protection.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Trust me, having risked my life a few times

to get people and pets out of fires... I just don't get it.

[seabeyond]

122. no one is applauding the law. they dont have fire dept. they pay no taxes for one. 75 yr for fire

service.

the man opted out

HE made the choice.

no one did ANYTHING to him.

HE did it to his self.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. He forgot not that will not happen to any of us

easy, not that people defending this get it. That 75 \year is rolled into YOUR DAMN FUCKING TAXES.

That is how CIVILIZED people handle this. And yes, IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

Perhaps people will get it when inevitably somebody does die in a fire that the local FD did not go to since they did not have payment. How 18th century of us...

[seabeyond]

126. he says. i heard they called him, sent him letters and possibly went out and asked him to pay

sounds like he chose not to pay.

and no, i dont forget to pay my taxes (city once a year), feds, insurances (many), gas, electricity, water, credit card, car, mortgage....

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. Did you listen to the interview

If not, do so in the repeat.

[seabeyond]

130. some man that makes a really poor choice blaming everyone but himself?

did he say that he was contacted a number of times to pay, and it just kept slipping his mind?

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. This should not be happening in the 21st century to begin with

but I guess we should go back to the actual meaning of fire companies... I am serious... that is the direction we are going and people here are applauding it.

IT IS damn easy to deal with it. They are called TAXES, you may have heard of them... and yes that 75\fee, could easily be rolled into taxes. But that is against the national way of thinking (or at least the deep south)

You know what? Now I am convinced we do not live in the same country, and it WILL break apart. At this point I cannot wait. I am serious.

[seabeyond]

148. no one is applauding the gd law. i chose to live inside city where they are covered. IF i lived

outside of county i would be damn sure i payed the bill. the county and voters chose this.

what pisses me off is a time when we pay our taxes and people bitch about paying, yet all the stuff they receive they pretend they arent getting with taxes. they whine about having to pay tax. he chose not to pay the tax. this is WHY we pay the fuckin taxes.

is it absurd that the county made this choice, well, ya. so pay the damn 75 dollars.

[seabeyond]

151. another poster said the man said his son did the same. his son didnt pay either. his son

was able to pay AFTER the use of the department.

you are telling me, he forgot. and you believe him.

[seabeyond]

153. thought they would come out and put the fire out even if didnt pay $75

Mr. Cranick, the owner of the house, said:

“I thought they’d come out and put it out, even if you hadn’t paid your $75, but I was wrong.”

http://www.indyposted.com/114773/tennessee-firefighters-watch-house-burn-down-owners-didnt-pay-subscription-fee/

he didnt forget

[DURHAM D]

154. The people arguing with you are actually discussing the fact situation.

You are passionately discussing theory.

To me you are irrational because you won't accept the facts on the ground because you want the "policy" to be something other than what it is. Fine - but it is what it is.

And the county residents appartently chose or accept that policy.

And if you ever live in a county that has such a bad policy I hope you move to a better county.

[seabeyond]

155. yes. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Don;'t worry I INTEND to stay away from that alien

and foreign country... it is the US well we are one country in name only.

That is the lesson of the day.

The end of Empire will bring the end of the US... this is even more clear in my mind than ever before.

And yes, it IS another country. It is stuck in the 16th century too.

[DURHAM D]

157. The lesson of the day -

County does not equal Country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. And some places are stuck in 16th century

Northern Marches...

Alien... foreign... I will not even want to visit at the risk that if I get hurt I will be left to die.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

146. According to the victim, he also says the same thing happened to his boy and he was allowed to ...

... pay the $75 after the fire department showed up. In that case he says they were able to extinguish the fire by the time the trucks arrived

I feel compassion for the man but to say he forgot is a bit of a stretch. He was counting on them fighting the fire and letting him pay later.

That said, I think the FD should be required by state law to respond but THEN be able to bill the homeowner for costs PLUS a multiple. The resulting lien if not paid should be superior to any other mortgage liens (much like taxes) so the homeowner knows the city is serious about collections. Of course, the first person to lose their home due to unpaid Fire Dept. bills will probably cause another national outrage.

The better plan would be to include the coverage in county taxes to the affected rural residents .......... but that would be socialism.

That's what bugs me the most about conservatives and libertarians - their lack of a grasp of history. They can't seem to grasp the concept of how we've been down these roads (private fire departments, elderly without a social safety net and kids in orphanages or poor houses) before and we didn't like it one bit.

[seabeyond]

149. exactly. he and his sons decides they dont need all that socialism.... paying for a FD for all.

but wants it available when they need it.

that is the breakdown in this society. not the fire department standing there.

[Withywindle]

142. OMG, this thread!

I worked late, just saw the interview.

The man is elderly and, it seems, not all that bright. Is that a CRIME now? A crime worthy of losing one's home and all one's possessions (as well as his grandchildren's pets, :cry:)

Is there anyone among us here who has never missed a $75 payment at any time in life? Particularly one that is a new expense, that used to be covered by taxes, when you're elderly and might not adjust quickly to change? Well, let him or her cast the first stone.

Everytime there's a thread here about a homeowner shooting a burglar, there are people who pipe up and say, "Does burglary deserve the death penalty?"

Well, does missing a $75 payment deserve the total destruction of one's home, possessions, photos and memories, and pets? And potentially also one's life? He didn't die, but fires do kill lots of people, you know.

I see a lot of judgment on this man because he's old, white, Southern, and might have voted Repub at some point in his life. I don't think those are crimes worthy of punishment-by-house-fire either. In that area? Highly unlikely he was wealthy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. Let me guess, just guessing here

you live either in the Northwest, or the other coast...or a large city

What I also noticed in this thread was a huge cultural difference.

Now I just peaked...

I was right...

What you are seeing is urban vs rural thinking.

And I agree with you, they should have done their job... and charged him later.

Of course they should have had a fire protection district to begin with, with annual assessed taxes.

Perhaps it is the guv'ment they voted, but this is so damn 18th century and damn alien to me. I was not brought up to think this way, and professionally I went into the homes of people who NEVER paid a red cent for fire taxes to rescue people. Amazing that a place like Mexico has no issues with that... but in the US we do.

And as I told another DU'er on this thread... at least where I live, and trust me we have our problems, we do not stand by while a property burns.

[Withywindle]

150. I grew up in Southwest Virginia

in a very tiny rural town. (You STILL can't get cable TV or decent cell phone reception there. They're just not available, whether you can afford them or not.) My father was a park ranger - whenever there was an emergency call to the operator (we didn't get the full 911 system until the 90s), guess who got called out of bed at 3 AM. There was hardly anyone else--all the emergency services were very far scattered, and the operators just called up ANYONE who was authorized to drive a car with a siren on it.

I live in Chicago now. And no, I do NOT want to go back to the world of my childhood. But I do have knowledge and sympathy of what it's like to live in a place where emergency services are spotty at best.

I'm...uh, which part of your post should I respond to? I agree with the second part. I don't think anyone should have to pay ANY amount of money, beyond taxes, for basic emergency services. I think this part of what a government SHOULD do, to fund and train and provide support for these essential life-saving things. I would have hoped that after what we saw on SUCH a grand scale in Hurricane Katrina, the shameful needless loss of life and property and dignity that could so easily have been prevented or at least mitigated by some more of the economy-of-scale work that government is meant for, people would realize how important collective funding for infrastructure and specialized emergency workers really is.

Alas, no. Quite the opposite. And this poor man, and many others like him, pay a price that is far more severe than what their mistakes merit.

[Douglas Carpenter]

161. the end of a caring society

Are we now as a society unsympathetic to the smoker who gets lung cancer, or the obese person who succumbs to heart disease or the promiscuous person who acquires AIDS or the driver who didn't wear seat belts or have air bags installed and ended up being thrown through the windshield of their car? Does the reality that a person may have contributed in someway to their own wounds mean that we stand aside and sneer at them and don't come to their assistance and offer them help?

I don't know why Mr. Craik didn't pay $75 like his neighbor did. He should have. Just as people shouldn't smoke, eat unhealthy food, engage in unprotected and risky sex or not use their seat belts when they drive. But people make mistakes. Most people don't always do the right thing all the time and sometimes they harm themselves and others. But good people realize that people make mistakes and good people don't stand aside and do nothing while someone else suffers when they have the ability to do the right thing and help. Good people do the right thing and help.

[Lars39]

162. Good people would come up with another system to protect everyone,

regardless of the ability to pay.

[Douglas Carpenter]

163. absolutely