Bottom line: You shouldn't have to pay a fee for the fire department

[TonyMontana]

Anyone who thinks you should maybe needs to reevaluate their political party.

[leftstreet]

1. Why not? We have to pay for health care

kinda, sorta: :sarcasm:

[JVS]

There should be private for-profit fire departments and you should be mandated by law to purchase...

their service.

[DJ13]

3. Oh please

Dont give them any ideas!

[JVS]

6. Are you failing to give our party proper credit for HCR?

[DJ13]

10. Do I need to study for the fealty test before I take it?

[jberryhill]

72. You have to pay the fealty test fee first /nt

[krispos42]

55. Except that you have to pay exorbiant fees to the fire dispatchers...

...and the private-sector bureaucrats, not the actual firefighters themselves.

[JVS]

56. Well duh! Anything else would fail to reflect our unique American system.

[elleng]

2. I agree, but in fact its a local matter, and those guys were wrong to allow it.

[petronius]

4. Really? Where should the fire department come from?

:shrug:

[TonyMontana]

5. Are you serious?

I don't detect sarcasm, so I'll answer seriously: Taxes.

[A HERETIC I AM]

7. What happens if you live in a very rural area, with the nearest town 40 miles away?

You know what those sorts of rural communities do when there isn't enough tax revenue in the county coffers to afford equipment and full time firefighters?



They form volunteer fire departments which THE LOCALS PAY FOR.

[napi21]

26. I lived in a fairly populace part of Pa. some years ago and we

had a volunteer FD. I don't have any idea if they got any tax money or not but each household was asked to contribute $20 a year and there would be no charge for ambulance service that they also provided. If you didn't pay your $20 they charged you for ambulance service. I know they ran raffles for several years to get enough $$ to buy a new firetruck, and they had dinners rented out the hall downstairs for wedding receptions & graduations etc. to also raise money. They did a terrific job in all areas and those volunteer firemen were totally dedicated to their volunteer job. I really don't understand this FD in Tn. It really isn't right to let someone's house burn down! Charge them a hugh price to put out a fire, but put the damn fire out!

[A HERETIC I AM]

41. I had a very good friend who was a volunteer fireman in rural, western UP of Michigan...

And they did the same sort of thing.

They did get a state grant to buy a used pumper truck (which probably ran $40,000 or more. A new one can be well in excess of $100K) but many of the rest of the expenses were born by the annual fee and things like you suggest, ie: barn dances, raffles, bake sales and the like. Boots, fireproof overalls, axes, new hoses, and dedicated phone lines all cost money.

It is most certainly tragic that this family lost their house to a fire. It is horrible, no doubt. But the fact is, they KNEW all that was required was the equivalent of about 5 cases of beer per year. It is an insurance policy, for fucks sake. If you don't pay into it, you can not expect to reap the rewards.

Not everyone in this country lives in a municipality with the wherewithal to have a well funded fire department, as I am sure you'll agree.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Every year as part of the Mexican Red Cross went

begging... err raising funds...

And you are wrong as to the cost of the fire truck. A new truck, fully equipped and certified, goes to a million bucks,

The reason... American LaFrance makes them to order.

Just the frame is 100K

A BLS unit, new, 50K, an ALS rig, new 200K

Hell the gurney alone ran close to 4500.

Why we went on corners to beg... err ask for funds...

Hell, when we ran out of money we paid for gas out of our own pockets. One weekend in 1992, I still remember, it ran 75 bucks for gas.

More than one high capacity tank... It was that... or smoke signals.

[A HERETIC I AM]

57. Fair enough on the cost. I lowballed in a big way, I admit. I worked for E-1 as a Shear operator..

in their Ocala, Fla plant (right alongside I-75) way back when and I admit, I haven't kept up on the prices for new equipment.

Yes, of course $100 K is seriously low and you are right, a new chassis from Freightliner or Navistar or whomever is going to cost close to a hundred grand before you have built the body and added a pump to it.

Back when I worked for Emergency One, Hendrickson built entire chassis for fire trucks. They only build suspension components now so I hope you'll pardon my several decades gap in keeping up.

American LaFrance is obviously not the only maker of fire apparatus either as I'm sure you're aware and not all of it is "made to order", but I concede, most of it is. There is E-One, Pierce, Seagrave and Ferrara among others.

I have been fascinated by these machines for a long time. You may be aware that Mack was once the largest manufacturer of fire trucks in the world, but no longer builds them. They stopped producing fire apparatus in 1990.

[napi21]

47. I agree with you on the areas that can't support a tax funded FD.

My problem is looking at it as an insurance policy. I honestly believe the FD should have put that fire out then charged that man whatever it cost to do so. I have no idea how much that might have been, but it can't be cheap to utilize the truck, pay the firemen, cost of all the hoses & water etc. IMO this falls in line with giving ER treatment to people. EVERY ER in the US will treat the patient THEN bill them for the service. Yes if the patient is destitute that cost is eaten by the hospital, but in many many cases, the patient has to pay the bill & it IS collectible by law.

[eridani]

29. Or the county property tax people can assess a fee that goes to the city

--with the fire department.

[Fumesucker]

9. The county voted 19-1 against taxes for fire protection...

Next argument..

[JVS]

16. I'd love to know who the 1 was.

[Fumesucker]

21. Someone with a conscience?

And probably voted out of office by now too..

[Quantess]

22. Well in that case, it really is their collectively own dumb faults.

They hate taxes so much, that they won't even fund the fire department properly.

Of course, it was one unlucky family who lost out big time. Hopefully this will change the voters minds, and make them a little more willing to pay taxes for fire protection. This should be a huge wake up call for them.

[hayu_lol]

75. Problem on the funding was that...

the fire department was from a nearby town in KENTUCKY. The fire was in a rural non-protected area in TENNESSEE. The town in Kentucky offered fire service for a nominal fee of $75/year.

Should have been up to the state of Tennessee and that particular county to provide fire service...but(see above)they voted against it.

[Binka]

In Over Your Head Tony

Stop digging.

[petronius]

24. Exactly right. But the county decided not to assess any for this purpose

Why should the city bear the responsibility for those outside the city?

For analogy, I live in California, and we pay a lot of taxes for a lot of services. would anyone seriously argue that the folks in Nevada (it's right next door after all) should be covered too?

[TonyMontana]

27. Because it's the RIGHT THING TO DO

Jesus Mother of God.

Where is the morality among you libertarians? Is EVERYTHING about money?

[petronius]

30. You don't know what a libertarian is, do you?

In this story, it's the people in the county who chose the libertarian route, and it bit them. As far as I can tell, everyone on DU (including me) thinks that was a stupid course and the county should have taken the route that the city did - taxes and community services.

[Lagomorph]

64. Firefighting is dangerous...

People get killed fighting fires. The fire department could lose it's insurance if goes running around putting out fires where it shouldn't be fighting them. Outside of urban areas, it's largely volunteer. Each of those volunteers is putting their life at risk when they go out to fight a fire or rescue an accident victim. They can get sued for their trouble, as well.

If the city department sends their trucks out to fight a rural fire, then a fire gets started in town, somebody is gonna lose their home or business, should it be the one who moved close to a fire station and pays for the protection, or the one who didn't?

So the RIGHT THING to do is to build a fire station every five miles over the entire country? Who's going to populate them?

Fire trucks, aid cars, firefighters and EMTs are all finite resources, while the demand for them is endless.

Making the right thing happen requires more effort than thinking it up.

[ZombieHorde]

8. The same funding the police department comes from. nt

[inna]

23. ahem, and military, too. nt

[jmm]

11. Next we'll have a fee for the police.

Since our taxes aren't enough of a fee 911 should run credit checks and ask for proof of insurance anytime somebody calls.

Nothing bad could come of people not reporting fires, seeking health care, etc because they can't afford it.

[leftstreet]

13. Cops are a private security force for the rich - they SHOULD pay for it!

Just sayin

[flvegan]

12. Cool. So free schools are next?

Good. I don't have kids, but I pay a good bit in property taxes for schools. I don't begrudge that fact, I'm just looking forward to not having to pay anymore.

[davidinalameda]

14. this fire department in question was supported by city taxpayers

not the people living outside city limits

those living outside had the opportunity to pay the $75 a year fee, which isn't that much, to get service

why should the taxpayers support services for people who have chosen not to support said services

the guy should have ponied up the $75 when he had the chance

[ZombieHorde]

15. DUers are supporting privatized fire departments now?

Did President Obama proclaim the glory of private fire departments? What is going on?

[JVS]

17. Hey, if it's good enough for health care...

[Skittles]

34. reference this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9249735&mesg_id=9249735

[Posteritatis]

54. Someone they dislike ideologically lost his home because of one

Therefore private fire departments are good things.

I can't wait to see what happens the next time, when a nonsubscriber dies in his home because the FD refuses to rescue him, or a town decides to try subscription-based police services. This place will get downright Somali then.

[Hosnon]

80. Spot on. Many DUers toss principles to the wind to get a good jab in at the Right. nt.

[SoCalDem]

73. There's a contrarian contingent here, who just love to stir the pot

:)

Of course anyone with even half a brain knows that in a decent/civilized society would include fire protection within the city/county taxes, and would therefore have to occasionally raise those taxes on EVERYONE, so that ANYONE who had a fire, is tended to....but then, there are the libertarianesque folks who think everything should be freeeeeeee freeeeeeee, I tells-yah!

Fire/police should never be a fee-for-service ..it should always be included in whatever tax set up a locale has.

When we lived in Northern Indiana (a gazillion years ago), smaller/more isolated communities nearby had volunteer firefighters , and had very antiquated equipment. I think their little townships had special levies that everyone had to pay, but when a big fire happened, our firefighters went to their aide, and I suppose that our taxes may have increased to cover it...but when spread out over the whole town, it surely was a pittance.

[Gaedel]

85. In a lot of places......,

adjoining localities have reciprocal agreement for police and fire in case one or the other is overwhelmed.

That being said, you cannot mandate a locality provide "free ride" services to an adjoining locality who refuses to tax themselves to provide the service.


Hey, I got an idea, lets just quit funding our schools and send our kids to school in the adjoining town. Think of all the moeny we will save! Their sense of community won't allow them to make our kids go without education.

[SoCalDem]

90. never said they should.. It should be a part of their taxes

not a separate "bill" that could go unpaid.Even people "outside the grid" have SOME taxes that are due each year. Their basic fire/police protection could be contracted with (on their behalf) the nearest larger community, and contained within whatever taxes they pay yearly..

When we lived in an unincorporated town, our police service was through Riverside County, and it was a part of our property taxes. It's not rocket science.

[whistler162]

83. No DU are supporting injured firefighter getting insurance

coverage if they are injured while fighting fires.

Which is what the $75 would cover for a out of state fire department to fight a fire in a area whithout a mutual aid agreement!

[ZombieHorde]

92. They have insurance, DUers are arguing for privatized government services.

They are not saying, "why should anyone have to pay an additional fee to receive this service?" They are saying, "he got what he deserved for not paying a fee." <-- Paraphrasing.

[marybourg]

18. No. It should be part of everyone's fair tax burden; part of

the price we pay to live in a civil society. Not an opportunity to opt out and buy a flat panel tv instead.

[Lint Head]

19. I'm sure it's a mostly a volunteer fire department.

This is like a doctor refusing emergency services to a patient because they don't have the means to pay.

[Swede]

20. This guy evaded paying his taxes,got caught and paid a penalty.

The taxes were the fee,the getting caught was the fire,and the penalty is the loss of his house.

[happyslug]

28. This was NOT a Tax, it was a fee for an OUT OF DISTRICT service

Remember, within the corporate border of the city whose fire department did respond, no fee is expected or paid. This fee is for service OUTSIDE the City borders to those people who do NOT pay City taxes.

[Swede]

37. I was not arguing semantics,here. Think of the fee as a tax.

He was reminded twice and decided not to pay his taxes.

[TonyMontana]

79. Do you care? At all?

I wonder what you'd feel if it was YOUR house.

This is not right. Period. I can't believe you people.

[Swede]

91. If someone reminded me TWICE,that it's time to pay a low low tax

to protect my house,I'd fucking pay it. He owns multiple properties,he can move into one of those.

[joeybee12]

25. Absolutely, basic services should be provided by the TAXES we already pay...

...this is ludicrous to watch someone's life be burnt to a crips because of nutjob politicians.

[jobycom]

43. The person whose house burned didn't pay taxes.

That's the whole issue. The Republican government of the county didn't want to pay taxes to raise their own fire department, because God doesn't want Republicans to pay taxes. They just expect the neighboring city to take care of them.

Want to understand it better? Obion County's median income (including the city) is about 40K. South Fulton (the city) is about 35K. African Americans make up less than 10% of the county, but 20% of the city. Starting to get the picture?

The Tea Baggers of Obion County (which voted more than 2 to 1 in favor of McCain) refuses to raise the taxes needed to pay for a fire department or to pay neighboring cities to use their fire departments, yet they expect the poorer and less white city nearby to just jump to their defense for free. The city agrees to fight fires in exchange for a small fee ($75 a year) for those county residents willing to pay at least something. Other than that, the county is not in their jurisdiction, it does not pay taxes to support the city's emergency services, and it isn't the city's responsibility.

Maybe the fire department still should have responded, but I can't blame them for getting sick and tired of the damned freeloading Republicans in this world expecting everyone else to do their work for them.

[KansasVoter]

31. LOL..so the magic Fire Department fairy fill make fire trucks!

[Drale]

32. Well in my town

the fire department is completely volunteer, so we don't pay extra and if I know the people of my town will never pay extra for the fire department.

[madville]

33. My liberal thinking believes people should be able to opt out of services

If you don't want fire or police services you shouldn't have to pay for them. Same with health insurance, want to take your chances, you shouldn't have to pay. Services, equipment and manpower costs money, if you don't want to pay don't expect the service, pretty simple.

[TonyMontana]

40. You need to change "liberal" to "conservative" in your subject line

Liberals don't allow houses to be burned down because of money.

Liberals don't let people die due to lack of health insurance because of money.

No morals whatsoever for you people. It's "pretty simple" to you? We're talking about a man's home here. We're talking about other human beings' lives here, and all I'm seeing from you and your ilk is talk about money money money.

Shame.

[verges]

46. liberal thinking? nt

[seabeyond]

35. sure, and we shouldnt pay for library, schools, roads, stop lights.... fuck people. nt

[Nite Owl]

36. Absolutely agree

with you Tony. Just proof of how far we have gone in imitating the GOP.
From the interview on Keith they were there waiting for the fire to spread to protect the neighbors property so being far away wasn't part of the consideration.
What sick minds thought this could be ok?

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. It's called a tax

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

read on it, seems you agree with this thinking...

[jobycom]

39. Everyone pays a fee for the fire department.

You pay taxes, and your locale uses those taxes to pay for the fire department. Unless of course you live in Obion County, Tennessee, and don't believe you should have to pay taxes--McCain got more than twice as many votes as Obama in 08 in Obion County. Can you say Tea Party? They didn't pay for a fire department because they don't believe they should have to pay taxes.
http://state.tn.us/sos/election/results/2008-11/uspresident.pdf

If your locale doesn't have a fire department, your locale needs to do something about that. The real problem here is that the county didn't do anything. They didn't have their own fire department, and they turned down opportunities to pay the city fire department to cover the county. As a result, the city FD gets no money from the county, yet they are expected to buy equipment, train people, staff stations, and be prepared to cover a region that absolutely refuses to pay for its own fire department. Not to mention, if the city FD is putting out a fire in the county for someone who refuses to pay ANYTHING to maintain the FD, and a house in the city burns because the FD is in the sticks, then the honest citizens of the city who elect a real government that takes care of itself instead of freeloading off neighboring taxpayers would be screwed, even though they did the right thing.

Having said that, the city FD should have responded, then sued the county and the victim for reimbursement. That would have illustrated the FD's need for funding and their usefulness to the county, and demonstrated to the county that it was derelict. But I can sure understand the reaction of not wanting to go outside their jurisdiction and waste their resources and endanger their lives for a freeloading county that refuses to pay its way.

[A HERETIC I AM]

44. Nicely stated. n/t

[napi21]

49. Did you see the guy whose house burned down on Keith's show?

He said "I just forgot about the bill. I know people think you aren't supposed to forget about things like that, but I did & I paid the price."

That's the reason I feel they should have put the fire out & billed the homeowner for the cost of service. If he couldn't or wouldn't pay then take it to the courts. They were just wrong for watching it burn!

[jobycom]

50. That's the number one excuse for not paying anything.

"I'm sorry, I was supposed to pay before I went into the buffet, but I forgot." I guess they could give him a polygraph while the house is burning to see if he really forgot or just figured he didn't need to pay because it was so unlikely his house would burn.

The biggest sin here was committed by Obion County and its voters (who are richer than the town they are blaming for not helping them, according to the Census) for refusing to provide a fire department for its residents. They want everything for nothing. Yes, the city (which is more poor) maybe should have put out the fire anyway, even if it put people who do pay their fair share at greater risk, but this is no different than the Republicans wanting tax cuts and then wanting bailouts when their businesses are in trouble.

[napi21]

61. I disagree. It's not like the Pubs. he guy didn'/t say he wouldn't or coultdn't

pay for the FD services. In fact he said I'll pay whatever it costs. I believe he probably DID forget.

Call me stupid like him, but about 12 years ago we were living in my mohouse in PA. and mom was in a nursung home which we were paying for. I paid all the bills and somehow overlooked a bill for the homeowners ins. I found it and noticed it was 2 weeks late and I called the company. They said TS, no ins for you! you didn't have ins. on that home for "a period of time" so go try to find it somewhere else. I did, although it wwasn't very easy. We were lucky and there were no fires or any other problems whild there was no ins. but I consider myself lucky. I really DID forget and misplaced the darn bill!

to you argument that the city's people would be put at greater risk, that's a straw man. If this guy had paid his $75 fee, the FD would have put out the fire and even though they DID just WATCH the house burn, they still weren't in the city you are concerned about.

[jobycom]

71. The county is the one who refused to pay.

They're the ones who left it up to a private agreement between their residents and the city's fire department, so that the guy could pay or refuse to pay or forget to pay. If the county residents had forced their government to pay for a fire department, instead of allowing their council to reject such an agreement so they wouldn't have to pay the taxes, it wouldn't have mattered.

[seabeyond]

66. but he didnt forget napi. his quote BEFORE on olberman

Mr. Cranick, the owner of the house, said:

“I thought they’d come out and put it out, even if you hadn’t paid your $75, but I was wrong.”


http://www.indyposted.com/114773/tennessee-firefighters-watch-house-burn-down-owners-didnt-pay-subscription-fee/

Read The Full Story: Tennessee Firefighters Watch House Burn Down; Owners Didn’t Pay Subscription Fee – Indyposted

[G_j]

51. +1

[Pithlet]

42. No, you shouldn't. But counties shouldn't vote against funding them either.

These people ended up paying fees because they didn't want to pay more taxes. Here's hoping some valuable lessons were learned. I don't support these types of arrangements, but it does seem it's what these idiots wanted. I don't think the city was obligated to keep providing the service to them for free. It costs money. I place the blame squarely with the dumbasses who voted themselves into this mess. They need to vote themselves back out of it.

I'm a liberal and a Democrat BECAUSE I support solid infrastructures supported by a healthy tax base. Does that mean I think that those who believe the opposite should be able to vote as a bloc to lower their taxes so they don't have to pay for those services, and then expect them for free? Hell no. They need to pony up their fair share too. Services like fire departments absolutely should not be set up for fee like this like some Libertarian utopia. That is what taxes are for. So tea bagger idiots shouldn't vote against them. If that loses me liberal cred, so be it. If we support their right to do this, soon we all lose these services.

[Swede]

48. Of course you should. The fee is called a tax.

The very heart of socialism- pooled resources.

[Posteritatis]

52. I'm curious as to whether the FD would be required to let anyone in an unpaid building die. (nt)

[ManiacJoe]

60. They would rescue the people for free.

... according to the interview with the fire department.

[happyslug]

67. That is the Norm for most fire Departments like this one

i.e. save people who are endangered, but that is all. Protection of property is NOT included in that definition of helping people.

Some years ago, a similar situation was mentioned on DU, but it was a Private Volunteer Fire Department, one the local government would NOT even provide money for. It was dependent on people agreeing to pay them for fire protection, no payment no protection. A new person moved into the area and when his house caught on fire was the first time he learned that the Fire Department was NOT a government unit, and as such would ONLY go to homes who had paid for protection. Since he had not, they did show up to make sure no one was endangered but did nothing to put out the fire. He tried to sue them, but could not claim contract violation for he had no contract with them, he could NOT claim any failure of a Government agency, for it was NOT a government agency. The home owner was just out of luck, even when the Fire Department did show up and made sure him and his animals were safe. They had no duty beyond that for that is all they agreed to do.

[WolverineDG]

53. If no one pays a fee, or tax, then where does the funding come from?

Seriously.

dg

[happyslug]

65. The City provides money for the Fire Department to cover everyone in the City

The problem is those parts of the County outside the City limits. These are the people who have to pay the fee for fire protection from the City THEY ARE NOT IN. Thus if no one pays the fee, the City still maintains the Fire Department, but its services are restricted to the City.

[WolverineDG]

74. Yes, I understand that but there are people on DU who think that somehow

no one should have to pay anything, tax or fee, for emergency services. I don't know where the fuck they think the money for those services would come from.

dg

[BzaDem]

76. If they don't subscribe, then they pay the cost of putting it out. Thats where the money comes from.

Problem solved.

[newportdadde]

82. You seem to be ignoring this point - they already tried it and it didn't work.

That was the system in place before this one, it was a $500 fee and less then 50% of those billed paid. The city then has no recourse, it can't put a lien on out of city limit property for example.

[WolverineDG]

84. And just how can the city enforce that?

They actually tried that & it didn't work because the city cannot force non-residents living outside its jurisdiction to pay. They can't sue for it, they can't file a lien on the property, can't ding his credit. Nothing.

dg

[Hosnon]

81. You said the funds wouldn't come from taxes, not the OP. nt.

[WolverineDG]

87. But that's what he's saying

because he obviously doesn't "get it," like many posters. In that particular county, county residents pay the voluntary fee in lieu of (not in addition to) taxes to support the fire department.

Basic civics & economics. If you don't understand it, crack open a civics book.

dg

[pacalo]

58. Exactly. It should be covered by taxes.

[WeekendWarrior]

59. Yep

+100

[krabigirl]

62. but you do..you pay taxes.

[happyslug]

69. Not in this case, any taxes paid was to the County, which did NOT provide fire protection

Since the county did NOT provide Fire Protection and he was outside the City Limits, he had to provide his own fire protection (such as paying the fee the city charges). The home owner knew this when he moved out to the County, which he did so to get a larger home with cheaper taxes. Now he finds out why he had cheaper taxes, i.e. no fire protection.

[Stinky The Clown]

63. We have exatly that situation because the people living there want it that way.

The local citizens perpetuate such practices.

[Rincewind]

68. I pay a fee for my fire department

it's on my tax bill every year.

[TorchTheWitch]

70. DAMN RIGHT!!!

And welcome to DU.

[LWolf]

77. Agreed. nt

[LiberalAndProud]

78. I agree. It should be entirely funded by taxes on property.

However, I wouldn't want anybody from Obion County moving into my county to try to tell me how to run things. So I'll afford them the same courtesy. Even if they are fucking stupid.

[Freddie Stubbs]

86. Who should pay? The magical fire protection fairy?

[WolverineDG]

88. Apparently, according to many here, yes

Don't even dare to ask "Where's the money going to come from?" because then you'll be labeled a freeper or a libertarian.

:eyes:

dg

[Lorien]

94. Most of us do through taxes

which is standard throughout most of the U.S. "Special fees" can easily be overlooked, so those are an idiotic idea. The public welfare is at stake here.

[cbdo2007]

89. So you want the Fire Department to only be volunteers?

[Lorien]

93. It should all be covered with taxes. Common good and all that.

You'd think that we would have learned after the 19th Century.

[TexasObserver]

95. you are correct!