What happened with the TN fire happens in hospitals untold times everyday, it's just not as dramatic

[divideandconquer]

Why so much outrage about this fire when this is basically how our healthcare system works? And in the case of healthcare, people are actually dying.

[uppityperson]

1. for most of us, we get fire fighter coverage whether or not we pay for it individually

rather like having public streets and public schools. Are you seriously saying no one should be upset at pay-for fire fighting service since health care is not socialized?

[divideandconquer]

2. A hell of lot more people are being hurt by our healthcare system than this fire

It's a moral equivalency. What about pay to save your life?

[uppityperson]

5. I have the ability to be outraged over more than 1 thing at a time. And, as I said,

Are you seriously saying no one should be upset at pay-for fire fighting service since health care is not socialized?

There have been plenty of threads on "pay as you go" health care. Simply because some chose to stay on the topic of fire fighting with fire fighting threads doesn't mean they agree with how health care is paid for.

I like how it was put here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9255975&mesg_id=9256010

[divideandconquer]

7. It's all of one piece to me, this situation occurs in may areas of American life

I just think maybe we should be more outraged at all the dead people than a middleclass homeowner in a poorly run cheapskate county.

[karynnj]

23. In both cases, it is a real breakdown in community

The reason it is shocking is that for the vast majority of people, fire and police protection are basic essentials that are provided through their communities via property taxes (or any alternative way a town raises revenue). The reason is not altruism - if a fire goes unfought, it could spread to other homes. This is why even far right people see this as one of the few things they approve of government doing.

Now, I agree that keeping its citizens as healthy as possible is a good goal - and one that virtually all Democratic politicians have run on - and we are definitely not there. The difference here is that the Republicans mostly said this should not be a government function. (A position I, a Democrat, disagree with) But, the vast majority of Republicans have always supported adequate fire and police protection. With all they have to protect, they have a vested interest in it. This IS a major shift and a shift that is so far to the right that most of us are completely stunned.

I also wonder how the firemen in the community felt, not responding to a fire where they could have minimized the damage.

[Abq_Sarah]

11. But the problem is

We do pay for it individually. Whether you rent, or own, you're paying taxes to your municipality and have a right to services. If you live outside a city and are allowed to opt in for a fee to receive their services, you have a right to them. If you freeload and let everyone else pay for equipment, training, wages, etc.. you shouldn't have an expectation that they will go outside their boundaries to help you.

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

3. Well, the irony here is....

That some who advocated a single payer/Medicare for all approach (i.e. like the rest of the civilized world has) actually used the idea of privatized fire departments allowing houses to burn down as an allegorical example of exactly how the corporate health insurance system was wrong. Only none of them actually believed that a privatized fire department allowing a fire would actually happen. Or at least not until Libertarian Randsucking teabaggers occupied every political office in the nation.

But yes, you are correct. It is the same thing. And NEITHER should be that way.

[TexasObserver]

4. Both instances are outrageous.

Here's the reality. Most of the time, jurisdictions put the fire out, even if the person isn't "subscribed" to their service. Most of the time, emergency rooms provide emergency care, even if the person has no coverage. In some places, they route some emergencies to other hospitals that are designated for either non insured or certain kinds of trauma or care.

The answer to your question is this: We have become acclimated to the dominance and dogma of the FOR PROFIT health care system, but we are not so acclimated to the PAY OR SUFFER attitude when applied to areas which we accept that service by government is the norm. We expect to pay as we go for medical, but not fires. At least, not yet. This is the slippery slope created by the FOR PROFIT health care system, which is a cancer on the body of health care.

[Fumesucker]

6. You are correct..

And what I see as the real irony is that some of the people who are most critical of the FD in this case are the same ones who are most strongly in favor of an individual private medical insurance mandate..

:crazy:

[lynne]

8. The majority of hospitals will see emergency patients even without insurance -

- and will bill you. That's the way every hospital I've ever gone to does it. That's also why you'll see ER's crowded and overused. So, in most cases, there is no comparison between the two situations because hospitals will tend to emergencies and this fire department did not.

The funny - as in ironic - thing is that most homeowners policies will pay for Fire Department fees. More than likely the insurance company would have paid the fee to the fire department as part of the fire claim.

[divideandconquer]

9. Hell there's videos of hospitals pushing nonpaying patients out into the streets

It's quite common for hospitals to not treat Americans, let alone illegal aliens.

[EFerrari]

10. It's pretty dramatic if it happens to you. n/t

[billlll]

14. overcrowded ERs due to chintzy UNDERSTAFFING

Earlier post blamed only how some ER's

Treat then bill later.

The crowding has TWO causes;

One cause is understaffing. Which IMO

Callously ups profits while spreading

Flu colds etc. Who wd be more aware of that risk than drs?

Eno staff and the crowding wd vanish.

The area hosps could agree to all upstaff to avoid burdening a single upstaffer.

France rated worlds best hc system.
Eng and Germany have hsecalls!

[aquart]

12. What is the exact death count that you believe warrants attention?

Animals died in this fire while help sat and watched. Will you only accept human deaths? How many?

How many human deaths are appropriate for a reaction?

[Fumesucker]

13. My acceptable count is zero.. And I suspect that is the point the OP is making..

Why so much outrage over this incident when hundreds of people with treatable conditions die every damn day?

[aquart]

15. Right be dismissive of what is in front of us to seek what? Vagueness?

If we wept over the treatable dying, would you come back and say more died in Iraq by American arms? The goal is to humiliate and demean people for feeling incorrectly, isn't it?

[Fumesucker]

17. Just trying to put things in perspective...

Something that seems sorely lacking around here quite a lot.

I have two dogs of my own that I'd go into a fire to rescue if it was humanly possible but I wouldn't expect someone else to risk their life for them either.

[aquart]

25. That isn't perspective.

That is an attempt to control by shaming. What we feel is petty and wrong.

[Chulanowa]

16. Novel notion...

We can be pissed at more than one thing at a time.

Perhaps some folks - possibly yourself - have been so inured to the modern media system of one-outrage-at-a-time, where there is only enough room i nyour head to be concerned about one thing at a time. But the truth is... this is not a competition. I know, whild, huh? Being pissed at this situation in Tennessee does not detract from or lessen the concern over the medical system. or gay marriage. or the war in Afghanistan. Or whatever your preferred cause is. They can all go simultaneously.

[Fumesucker]

18. I think the OP is actually pointing out that we are outraged over this fire..

And yet seem to calmly accept hundreds of human deaths every day from the very same phenomenon, private control of something that should be a public service.

[Chulanowa]

19. If so, then I think the OP is delusional

he clearly doesn't read anything on DU, if that's the case.

[Fumesucker]

20. I sure don't see the same level of outrage...

And I read DU a lot..

Indeed, IIRC you're a big fan of the current health insurance reform that will leave tens of millions still uncovered and a whole bunch more that won't be able to afford the insurance they will be forced to purchase.

And then when the Republican take control again and strip the protections out and leave the mandate it will be pure hell on Earth.

[Chulanowa]

21. You're not very good at recalling things

One... there is a lot more outrage. The fact that this fire in Tennessee is a hot topic tonight does not impact the overall trend of years. Again, the attention span on display here is abysmally short.

Second, I'm a "big fan" in the regards that I believe that something is better than nothing, and that baby steps are superior to falling flat on the ass. It's hardly my optimal position.

You know, all those fumes you suck probably aren't doing your memory any favors.

[divideandconquer]

22. I think a lot of people are in denial about how things work in America

Hopefully they'll take this fire department incident and start looking at how healthcare in the US works in similar way and that libertarian solutions only save money when someone is denied services.

[LWolf]

24. Our health care system DOESN'T work as it should.

Why send other public services down a bad road?

[TonyMontana]

26. Outrage? I see people saying "good for the FD"

Maybe the reason the health care system is so horrible is because of all the people who put money over humanity. When so called Democrats think it was OK to let the house burn down, I can't see how Obama would've ever been successful at putting in a public option, let alone true, universal health care.

[Vinca]

27. Great analogy. You can die in a fire or die in a hospital that won't

provide life-saving treatment without payment up front. It's very sad what this country has become. The solutions are there, but greed won't allow them to happen.