A Disconcerting Observation About DU

[WeekendWarrior]

This post is NOT about Rick Sanchez—a subject that has already been done to death—but it uses the Sanchez saga as an example.

When the news first came out about Sanchez's faux pas, the words used to describe it were "anti-semitic," which I think is accurate. Shortly after, however, Sanchez was described here as saying "Jews control the media," which I'd argue is not what he said—but we may disagree on that point. Then today I notice a post that claims that Sanchez said "Jews control the world."

Now, I don't know about you, but I find this kind of thing extremely disconcerting. If you can't have a debate or a conversation without distorting the truth, then a) why are you here? and b) how can you call yourself a progressive or even a Democrat?

This is like some weird game of telephone, where the end result is a complete lie that somehow becomes acceptable because the guy the lie is targeted at is an annoying buffoon. It somehow becomes okay to distort or exaggerate the truth about what he said because most of us agree that he's a moron.

I'm sorry, but I find that pretty disgusting. I don't care if he's Dick Fucking Cheney, distorting the truth about what he said in order to make your point is wrong. And if you play the game of telephone and repeat that he said, "Jews control the world" or bump it up to "Jews control the galactic empire," then you should be ashamed of yourself for not reading the original quote and allowing yourself to become part of the echo chamber.

These are the kinds of things we fight against with the Republican party and the tea baggers. Do we really need to turn this into a case of the pot calling the kettle black?

Again, Sanchez is only an example. I'm sure it has happened many times before. And I think that's sad.

[Warpy]

1. I too wish people would stop overstating things

since that will destroy the most valid point as efficiently as possible.

It wasn't necessary to overstate Sanchez's nastiness. It spoke for itself, loudly enough for his bosses and sponsors to hear.

[pscot]

11. True believers

When your only tool is a hammer....

[KharmaTrain]

2. The Issue Is He Was Representing CNN...

When he did that show he was introduced as "CNN Correspondant"...thus the words he spoke could also be construed as those of his employers. Most times that's not a bad thing and the networks like their people to get around and spread some PR and network love. Sanchez did the opposite. His anti-semetic remarks were aimed as much at his employers as it was about Stewart and this is one bridge too far. You don't crap where you eat. There are also other intangibles about this story such as the network and Sanchez poor ratings as well as the interpersonal relationships inside the network.

Unfortunately those with an agenda will twist words or fit what happens into their own little box. Their words always speak for themselves and so be it.

[Vinnie From Indy]

3. So you found one DU poster that offered "jews control the world"

and you post this hissy fit? I find it slightly amusing that you would not include the exact quote by Sanchez in your post so readers would have some factual basis to begin debate. Instead you simply begin painting with your broad brush. Here is a quote from Sanchez that all readers of this OP should consider:

“Everybody that runs CNN is a lot like Stewart,” Mr. Sanchez said. “And a lot of people who run all the other networks are a lot like Stewart. And to imply that somehow they — the people in this country who are Jewish — are an oppressed minority? Yeah.”

Notice the word "all".

Cheers!

[WeekendWarrior]

4. Like I said

This isn't about Sanchez. It's about distortions of the truth. And if ONE guys distorts it (although I'd argue there are many more than one), there are sure to be others who will follow.

By the way, "the media" encompasses much more than CNN and the other networks.

I'd also take issue with your characterization that what I posted was a "hissy fit." -- So let's let that serve as example number two.

[Vinnie From Indy]

5. Would it not also be a distortion to take one person's post and

offer that based on that single post, there is a growing threat of some kind or another?

You write,
"Again, Sanchez is only an example. I'm sure it has happened many times before. And I think that's sad."

It appears you are basing your entire OP on a single post you allegedly found here on DU and a belief that it has happened before on this board.

Lastly, I have confidence that most fair-minded DU'ers would respond to any poster that offered that Sanchez said "Jews control the world" with facts and honest debate. Most outrageous claims are usually confronted quite quickly and forcefully by many DU'ers. I hope you responded to the post that has caused you to become so extremely disconcerted with facts and a rational rebuttal.

Cheers!

[WeekendWarrior]

7. Unfortunately, no

The last I looked, the only poster who responded to that statement was me. And I saw a lot of posts there, but no one responding to that gross distortion of the truth.

And this is far from based on a single post. Anyone who said Sanchez claimed that "Jews control the media" was also exaggerating. He didn't say that. What he said was bad enough. It didn't need to be distorted.

I DO think there are a lot of fair-minded DU'ers here. And I think the majority of them would probably agree with my original post. At least I certainly hope so.

[snooper2]

6. you ever notice

how many different brands of paper towels there are? Amazing isn't it :)

[WeekendWarrior]

13. Was this really necessary?

You could easily have made your point using smaller graphics. All you've succeeded in doing is being annoying.

[zipplewrath]

8. It's a fine line

There's a fine line between accuracy and pedantry. Personally, as long as it doesn't change the under lying point, or distort the basic premise, I see it mostly as haste or laziness. In some cases it can be explained more as a case of hyperbole than inaccuracy. Hyperbole is a useful tool for creating stark distinctions. It, however, can morph pretty easily into distortion, especially when used to create a point at all. i.e. in the absence of the hyperbole, there is no point.

In other cases, part of the problem is a form of metaphor. Changing the exact details of someone's statement can more accurately portray their larger behavior. Problem is that they didn't say that and metaphors don't make that distinction.

Where it really goes off the ranch, and where I see particular personalities using it, is basically the strawman. Putting words into peoples mouths they didn't say, and then using that to draw conclusions that are contrary to what they actually do or believe. Worse, those conclusions then become new characterizations. "The Kenyan, Barry Seoto" is a classic example. It's the result of a false assertion generating a false conclusion being stated as an accomplished fact.

[slackmaster]

9. The Jews must have put you up to posting that

:nuke:

[rucky]

10. Sorry, we may control the world...

but we can't do much about what's said on DU.

[DevonRex]

12. ICAM. Exaggeration and misrepresentation are what Republicans do. We shouldn't

do that. In fact, in your example, what Sanchez said was definitely enough to be condemned vociferously. Exaggerating the remarks only makes us look deceitful, and it implies that what he actually said wasn't really that bad, because if it were then it wouldn't need to be inflated.

Well, you're right. What he said was definitely terrible - exactly as he said it.

[TexasObserver]

14. Reply to and correct the errant post in the thread in which it was made.

These kind of spin off threads are poorly conceived. The place to address an error is the thread in which it is posted.

[WeekendWarrior]

19. This isn't about an "error" in a post

This is about a problem that plagues this entire country and seems to have found its way to DU. As such, I think it warrants a separate post.

[leeroysphitz]

15. Sanchez clearly stated he had incontravertable evidence that an international Jewish cabal

was secretly editing all print, television and radio news from their underground lair deep beneath Mt. Rushmore.

[WeekendWarrior]

23. Heh. I get what you did there. nt

[CreekDog]

16. And the posters who get it 100%, completely wrong --they are least likely to correct it

I can think of numerous cases where a poster put up a comment and was verifiably wrong to the extent that they were quickly and easily refuted numerous times.

Did they come back? Of course not! :eyes:

Even the most accurate and careful posters make mistakes --and they correct them.

The worst posters make mistakes and don't correct them or obstinately refuse to admit they are verifiable mistakes. This makes their posts unreliable overall and DU less useful overall.

[_ed_]

17. Is this entire issue

really worth discussing at length? Some airhead CNN anchor revealed that he's a bigot. Big deal.

[WeekendWarrior]

20. Did you read the OP?

This ISN'T about Sanchez.

[TwilightGardener]

18. I sort of remember people taking Rahm's "retarded" quote to mean

all progressives were retarded, instead of just a progressive idea that was floated. I could never find a quote from him that stated, "You progressives are retarded", and yet that's now accepted as what was said. Has nothing to do with whether I like or hate Rahm or Sanchez, everything to do with the truth.

[WeekendWarrior]

22. Yeah, that's another good example

As far as I can tell, Emanuel never said the words, "liberals are retarded" yet it's all over the Internet that that's exactly what he said. From what I can gather, somebody in a meeting brought up a move that liberal activists were planning to make and he simply said, "That's fucking retarded." But, of course, I wasn't in the room, so I don't really know.

But then none of us were and many of us acted as if we'd heard the quote directly.

[ecstatic]

21. I finally heard the original comments

It sounded like he got caught up in an unfortunate "My people have had it harder than your people" debate. Those types of discussions can get pretty emotional and bitter.

[Poll_Blind]

24. I noticed that too.

DU actually used to be a place where you could get useful, accurate information which was not generally available via the MSM. That's one of the reasons I stuck around. There were a LOT of people who spent time, enormous amounts of time, during the Bush years doing research, digging and presenting really useful and sometimes hard-to-find information. Some of them got banned, some of them left and some of them just flat-out died, like our dearly-missed Keph. Lots of people, usually with their own subject they enjoyed pursuing, educating the rest of us.

That's not so much the case anymore. A big portion of DU, the portion which tends to obscure most of the useful aspects of the site, is more like a politically-themed TMZ.com. I don't know whose feet to lay the blame for that at, or even if it can be, but I uncharacteristically absolve the Admins for that particular turn of events. It may have been a byproduct of other decisions but it certainly wasn't on purpose. I think part of the most recent poll is trying to un-do all that mess and I hope they figure out some way to do it because I really miss all that pithy information.

Anyway, I actually bothered to track down the three parts of the radio show that Sanchez was on and listened to them myself. Very little resemblance to the allegations posted on here. But that's par for the course now days which is why I bothered to hunt up the original source in the first place: You just sort of expect that most of the information coming across here now is going to be at least partially removed from the truth enough to where you have to do you own digging and find out the real facts before quoting it to somebody else.

PB