Why I think it's a good thing the Fire Department refused to respond.

[hedgehog]

It's a wake-up call that Elections have consequences and that taxes sometimes do good.

The only reason we are debating the actions of the city fire department is that the residents of the city have voted to tax themselves to pay to have a fire department. The people in the county voted not to support the fire department, and the home owner made a further personal vote not to put up $75 to support the fire department. Each person in the city pays a certain amount of money each year not to protect just his own property, but the property of everyone else in the city.

Now, I am Communitarian to the bone, but if you choose to live by Libertarian principles, then you should live with the consequences.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

2. a poster says 50% of the people opt out of paying subscription yet expect FD service from city

of another state.

fuckin assinine.

[FSogol]

5. True and that shows why taxes are a necessary good, not an necessary evil.

Stupid Repubs.

[seabeyond]

14. it is a part of the collective pot. which is the fundamental principal of democratic

policy. not a small group adding a much larger into pot to pay for all. but a large group putting small amount into pot for all.

[roguevalley]

37. the man whose house burnt down forgot to pay the money. he was

and has but he forgot. imagine the older people and the impaired who will lose their homes because they forgot. this isn't as simple as it sounds.

[seabeyond]

39. no he didnt. first he said, i thought they would put fire out even if i didnt pay

they are sent a note. when they dont pay, they get a call.

bullshit.

[thelordofhell]

41. Wrong......the family has a history of this

3 years ago, the same thing happened at another property the family owns. The Fire Department put the fire out, charged the family, and the family told them, "Up yours!!" and didn't pay.

[sinkingfeeling]

3. +2

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. And the asshat should have had fire extinguishers anyway

I don't know why people in this day and age don't all have fire handling capabilities on site so they don't have to wait for it to get bad enough for the FD.

[hedgehog]

12. Were you aware that the fire in question was started by the asshat's

grandson burning trash? It's only a matter of wind direction that his house burned and not the neighbor's!

[guitar man]

20. me either

I have 3 fire extinguishers hanging on the walls in my house, to hell with "decor". I also have one in my shop building. It never ceases to amaze me how many people don't keep them in their house :crazy:

[sabrina 1]

27. You don't understand why people don't all have fire handling capabilities

on site? Here are a few possibilities for you.

Many people cannot afford to buy that kind of equipment. They are lucky if they can afford to buy food.

Some people are elderly, disabled, and wouldn't be able to use it anyhow.

Sometimes, people are not home when fires start so it wouldn't matter what kind of equipment they had.

But hey, let's go the Republican route and rather than simply do the right thing, ANALYZE why maybe we should just let those asshats die and then pat ourselves on the back for how 'tough and manly' we are.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

6. The county commissioners who voted to make protection a "choice" should be voted out for malpractice...

As evidenced by the national outcry, society doesn't want to stand by and watch people's homes burn to the ground.


That's what libertarian d-bags can't seem to grasp - We went down this road before. It was called the 1800s and early 1900s.

[hedgehog]

10. Who elected the County Commissioners?

[seabeyond]

15. 19 to 1. 50% opt out. says something about direction of nation we should ALL be aware of. nt

[Edweird]

7. If he couldn't pay due to hardship, that's one thing. If it's because he's "Taxed Enough Already"

then screw him. This is what he wanted. $75/yr is nothing. Pull your own weight and contribute to the greater good.

[Pithlet]

8. Oh, good. I was afraid I was going to be run out of DU on a rail.

It didn't look like there were too many people who thought this last night. It's also worth mentioning that the fire department didn't just start doing this. They'd been putting out fires even though the county had enacted this before. They'd been having trouble collecting money. They're hurting financially. The county has left them with little choice. They can't afford to service the county as well unless the county pays.

[Edweird]

11. Bingo. No money = no services or infrastructure.

[HughMoran]

17. It's about 10 "people"

Who think going back to the 19th century is a good idea.

[hedgehog]

9. I'd love to know if the fire started because the family refuses

to pay a tipping fee:

"The home reportedly caught fire after a trash-burning fire started by the Cranicks' grandson grew out of control. "

http://www.claimsjournal.com/news/southeast/2010/10/05/113824.htm

Mother Jones also adds some pertinent info:

http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/10/firefighting-obion-county

[JVS]

13. They had a fire 3 years ago without coverage and the FD saved their bacon.

These people are asses.

[sabrina 1]

28. So we should let asses die?

It is the duty of every citizen to help those in trouble, regardless of how assinine they are.

Should we look for information on every individual who needs help BEFORE deciding to help them, or should we first save their lives, then deal with them later?

Your reason for not putting out that fire stinks, frankly.

[seabeyond]

29. 50% of this county does not subscribe. is that an issue with public service? nt

[JVS]

30. Sure.

These people were offered a useful service at a very good price.
They refused to buy the service.
I guess they're really up shit creek.
:nopity:

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[itsrobert]

16. I bet they dump their sewage in the river

Why should they have to pay to take a dump?

[PoliticAverse]

23. Herin lies the problem...

"The Cranicks said they also forgot to pay their fire service fee on time about three years ago. But the fire department then did not hesitate to put out a chimney fire and let them pay the fee the next day"

[suston96]

18. I said on another thread....

The government cannot surrender its obligation to protect and serve the entire community. I guarantee that there will be legal action here.

Supposing only 50% of the town residents can afford to pay the fee for fire protection. Everybody else burns? How ridiculous is that? How criminal?

The right to life and therefore to personal safety is a natural right which governments are created to protect. An arrangement to contract out this protection and force citizens to pay for it is unbelievable.

At the very least, contract fire departments should be obligated to respond to all fires and emergencies and bill those who do not pay the fee.

[PoliticAverse]

21. What happens if you can't afford it?

Fire Departments are usually financed by property taxes. If you don't pay your property tax the
county/city will usually eventually seize and auction your property to someone else to get the
taxes paid.

[guitar man]

24. I don't know how it is in Tennesee

But here in Oklahoma in rural areas we have something called "homestead exemption" for property taxes. I live in an unincorporated area and my annual property tax is $7.78 a year. As a result, if I have a fire and they come put it out I will receive a bill, and it can be pretty steep. Last year one of my neighbors had an unoccupied mobile home on his place catch fire and the fire dept sent him a bill for $1600 after they put it out.

[seabeyond]

22. wrong. this is a city in another state. a county in another state does not want a fd so they

outsource to this other city in another state. the local city taxes pay for fd. all are covered even those that cannot afford. those asking for outsource fd has to pay a price for it. council voted 19 to 1 that a person could opt in or out for fd service. 50% of the people opt out.

if the fd of a particular community uses their resources for the outsourcing community it will drain their city. they cannot afford to do it.

the option i see for this city is to say fuck it....

you dont want to pay for service, and demand service at expense and burden on city tax payers. then build your own fd.

[suston96]

49. People cannot opt out of fire protection and prevention.....

Nor police protection. It is the duty of government to protect citizens and their property. The only just solution would be for any who end up using unpaid protection to be billed and pay on a per incident basis.

The state or the federal government is obliged to secure these protections for all citizens even though crazy laws like this one are passed. Someone should channel these violations against societal moral obligations through the courts.

These civil obligations cannot be outsourced!

Poor families with children who cannot afford the fire protection must do without? What a fucking country we are turning into.

[guitar man]

19. I must agree

And my agreement is a grudgingly bitter one, but I'm afraid this country and society is going to have to learn these lessons the hard way.....yet again. :(

Somehow we are unable to look back at history and see that we were once where we seem to be headed again. Probably because screamers like Limbaugh, Beck, Boortz et al shout their re-written version of history through their megaphones constantly.

As Will Rogers once said:

“There are three kinds of men.
The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The
rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.”

I'm afraid we are at the "pee on the electric fence" part of the history cycle yet again :(

[struggle4progress]

25. It's not a good thing, but neither the city nor the fire department has real options under the

current system

Firefighting requires money. There are operations, maintenance, repair, and replacement costs for facilities and equipment. Firefighters typically need salaries and some insurance. Nobody's giving the fire department free electricity and trucks and waterlines. Nobody's giving the firefighters free room and board fulltime or promising them free medical care

I think that a civilized society should provide for such needs without a second thought. Apparently the voters in Obion county don't agree with me. I find that deplorable, but it's their right to arrange matters that way. It's a sucky arrangement, and I'm sorry Mr. Cranick's house burned, but he knew the score in advance -- and his own family's uncontrolled trash-burning led to the loss of his house

It certainly would be swell if the folk in South Fulton were generous enough to subsidize fire services for the whole county, and if they were willing to do that, maybe they could also be persuaded to subsidize fire services for the rest of Tennessee and several adjacent states as well, but they haven't chosen to do so and seem to have no real obligation to do that. Another option, of course, would be for Obion county commissioners to tax residents to provide fire services to everyone -- but they're Republicans whom prefer instead to rail against government and then point fingers of blame when vital services are unavailable

[jgraz]

26. Did his pets choose to live by Libertarian principles?

What if his kid was in the house?

[SargeUNN]

31. can't agree

I live in Arizona and before that Mississippi where I often fought for and worked against laws that I felt were wrong. This included Jim Crow laws to the current SB1070 in Arizona. I saw people abused in Mississippi which the Jim Crow law allowed and they had no way out the area. I see the same happening here in Arizona where even innocent people suffer because of it, and when we degenerate to such a standard and just say well they live in it that is there problem we are no better than the ones who support such.

[mainer]

33. While FD is saving unsubscribed houses, what about city houses?

The city pays the taxes to keep the FD afloat. If the FD is out saving the houses of county residents who never even pay to support that FD, it leaves fewer resources to save the homes of people who actually pay taxes to support those men and buy the equipment. If I were a city dweller, I'd be pretty darn angry if my house burned down because my FD was out saving the bacon of a freeloader.

[EFerrari]

34. Fire fighters standing there watching a home and pets burn

is not a logical consequence.

[seabeyond]

35. lets wait on this story. i am hearing two hours for fire to get to house. would like to know

why the animals were not taken out of house by owner. was a trash burn in back yard. out of control. not at house. why the hell did the fuckin owners let their pets be burned to death....

[EFerrari]

36. I think it's too late for you to wait on this story unless you are

pulling back from all the invective you have heaped on these people already which, judging from this post, you are not.

[seabeyond]

38. you tell me how those animals fuckin died. why the owners did not get animals out of

house, before it went up. you see a fire in back yard out of control, heading for your house are YOU going to leave your animals in the house to die

now i am that much more mad

[Scout]

40. first thing i did after calling fire department was get my dog and my bird,

large standing cage and all, out of the house and to safety. then i told my neighbors what was going on, and we waited for the fire department.

[seabeyond]

44. damn straight. didnt even think about this all this time. nt

[EFerrari]

43. Exactly. You are not "waiting". n/t

[seabeyond]

45. what we KNOW is fire was outside in back yard. what we know is they claim animals died

why the fuck didnt they get the animals out

[EFerrari]

46. Do you know the answer to that question or is this just part of your "waiting"?

You know, how stupid these people were or weren't has nothing to do with fire fighters standing there and letting that house burn.

A lot of people are very stupid. That doesn't mean you don't help them in an emergency.

[seabeyond]

48. they werent being stupid. they didnt want to pay. 50% dont pay. how is FD going to function when

50% does not pay. who is paying? the city they represent thru taxes. are they burdened more by this county that refuses to pay. do their taxes increase to cover the 50% OF THE people that feel they just dont have to pay, but they DESERVE to be provided with service.

wont work

[Rex]

42. What about the danger to other property in the area? This is regression

as far as the 'personal stake' we put into capitalism to have everyones interests covered. For our own reasons, we all help keep our civilization moving along until we decide not to do our jobs and let civilization fall apart. This is a yardmark in how far down American capitalism has fallen, back into the 20th century we go!

[Contrary1]

47. Use your anger...

Although it didn't apply in this situation, taxes are used to fund fire services in most communities.

I keep hearing from the Repubs, both national and local, that taxes and spending need to be cut. How in the hell do people expect all the perks without paying for them?

What happened is very sad, and there was no need for it. But, as unfortunate is it is, we can use it to make our point.

If the Teabaggers get their way, more funding will be cut across the board. What are you willing to give up? Decent streets? Safe bridges? Fewer fire engines? Fewer police officers?

Take your outrage and use it. Maybe some good can from this tragedy.

Move To Full-Time Firefighters Could Quadruple Budget

"MORGAN COUNTY, Ind. -- As fire departments across the state shut down fire stations and lay off firefighters, the Morgan County Council will decide Monday if the Harrison Township Fire Department in can quadruple its budget.

The volunteer fire department wants an additional $220,000 levy to provide a paid, full-time fire department to the community of 1,600 people, 6News' Kara Kenney reported.

A document provided by the Department of Local Government finance read, "According to the (National Fire Protection Association), in 2007, 87 percent of all fire departments in the U.S. were all volunteer or mostly volunteer. Of those who were career firefighters in 2007, most (74 percent) served in communities that protect 25,000.

In Harrison Township, 56 people have signed a petition protesting the excess levy, which would mean an extra $100 tax for the average homeowner....

more: http://www.theindychannel.com/news/25245130/detail.html