I was curious about what firefighters thought about yesterday's TN fire

[pacalo]

so I googled & found the news article posted at Firehouse.com.

Here are just the first three comments, all appalled:

Jesus Christ, this is disgusting. Respond to the exposure but not the fire building, because of "paid membership/subscription?" The absolute worst case scenario should be for them to respond and then send a bill if that's how they function. If they don't pay the bill, take them to small claims court to make a point. If they can't afford it, have a system in place to cover the fees. To decline to respond to a structure fire is inexcusable.

mskowera...." Should I risk my life, the lives of my unpaid firemen, and a firetruck paid for & insured with other people's money for someone too stingy to attend our dept spaghetti supper, buy our fund-raising raffle ticket, or pay a subscription fee? I'll have to think hard about that one."
The answer to your question is yes. Isn't that what you sined up for?? I bet if you were driving down the road and came across a car accident or a fire you'd stop to help..but this is different??? You don't know this mans financial situation or the reasons why he didn't pay the $75. The fact that people agree with you on here makes me sick....we all signed up to do a job regardless of who it is we are summoned to help. You all need to check yourselves and think if it's time to hang up the helmet, it seems a lot you all have lost touch with what this job is about.

Mallan118 - I could not agree with you more! These firefighters are an embarrassment to our vocation/avocation and have tarnished the badge we carry, either as active or retired firefighters.

While Mr. Cranick's son was absolutely wrong for assaulting the chief, I do understand the emotion behind it. Did anyone perform a size-up? Did anyone resolve whether or not there was anybody trapped inside?

(...)

These firefighters in Tennessee are a disgrace to the badge, to the uniform and to the memory of every brother and sister firefighter who have made the ultimate sacrifice. And from the chief on down to the rank and file, as well as the mayor and city council, they should bow their heads in shame and resign immediately.

I'm among those Duers who were very upset at this event. I know that if I were a doctor or nurse & came upon an emergency outside of work, the thought of payment for any medical knowledge/assistance I could provide would be the last thought on my mind. I'd act on instinct & do everything I could to help. Anything less, for whatever reason, is unacceptable.

[babylonsister]

1. Rec'd. I'm with you, pacalo, and most of the firefighters. nt

[SharonAnn]

46. According to Tennessee law, they can't take them to court. Fire departments

can really only operate as tax paid entities, subscription, or volunteer. That's it!

I really think that until people stop getting services they won't make the connection that these services cost money and the most efficient way to fund them is through taxes. No funding, no services.

Seriously, you have to realize that these people made the decision that they DID NOT WANT a county fire department and that individuals would have to subscribe to the neighboring municipal fire department to get covered. THEY MADE THAT DECISION!

No subscription, no fire department service is the consequence.

[Taverner]

2. OH god here we go again...

Seriously though, this is capitalism. This is the invisible hand at work. This is all that bullshit the Greenspans of the world swallow without reservations.

I am not saying who was right or who was wrong, but this is Capitalism.

If you don't like these kinds of actions (and expect more and more of it as more things are privatized) then maybe you don't like capitalism

I sure the hell don't

[tkmorris]

5. I think capitalism is fine for selling iPods and Barbie dolls

And other consumer crap people don't need but want anyway.

For Fire Departments? Not so much, no.

[joeybee12]

16. No, we've been a capitalist country for a while...this sort of crap is new...nt/

[Taverner]

20. Not really - fire departments used to be private

And if you paid your FD their fee, they put a sticker on your home, letting the department know in a hurry that this home has paid their bills. IF they didn't have the sticker, they didn't come.


However the United States did not have government-run fire departments until around the time of the American Civil War. Prior to this time, private fire brigades compete with one another to be the first to respond to a fire because insurance companies paid brigades to save buildings. Underwriters also employed their own Salvage Corps in some cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_firefighting

[Control-Z]

48. Yes, they used to be private -

until we progressed.

[Hannah Bell]

51. this county never progressed. they've never had a fire service.

they have gotten free fire service from the cities for decades, as stated explicitly in a county document:

Our common goal is to provide fire protection to all areas of Obion County without
discrimination from lack of insurance, lack of subscription, ability to pay, or the decision that
it’s outside of a fire department’s designated area of operation. A major portion of Obion
County has been furnished rural fire protection free of charge for decades.

http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20County%20Fire%20Department%20Presentation%20Presented%20to%20the%20County%20Commission.pdf

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. One cause of the Great Chicago Fire

were the many competing fire companies working on contract.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. No it is not

and you should read the SINGLE mention of the hand in Smith's work. You'd be surprised at the endless caveats.

This is older than Capitalism actually. This is Scott Irish Borderer culture, going back to the 15th century culture.

Read on the Enclosure Acts, it might 'xplain a smidgen why their descendants HATE outsiders, or any thought of the Commons. They will not be able to tell it to you in these precise words and use terms like SOCIALISM, but this is what is at work here.

I know capitalism is the favorite bugaboo... but this goes much father back... oh and Adam Smith got it, see again Enclosure Acts... so did Malthus, and a few others... just saying.

[sabrina 1]

3. I cannot believe that anyone even tried to excuse the behavior

of those Firemen. In fact, they don't deserve to be called Firemen at all.

I too have seen many comments from Firemen around the country, all saying the same thing. And every Fireman I know personally, was shocked by what happened.

What was very sad was to see people here on DU try to explain the 'logic' behind their decision.

Three dogs and a cat died in that fire.

As one Fireman said, 'we are volunteers, we go out and spend hours trying to rescue animals in distress, a cat in a tree, a dog stuck in a drain-pipe etc. And we do it for free, we are not paid.'

I know many volunteer Firemen who get no salary, and receive little in the way of compensation at all, other than a dinner once a year and a fairly cheap life insurance policy.

These guys have disgraced themselves.

[we can do it]

8. and Us Female Firefighters Think They Suck TOO

(firemen?, malemen, wtf century is this?)

[sabrina 1]

12. I spoke to FireMEN which is exactly what I said.

When I speak to FireWOMEN, I will state that also.

I would have been lying if I had said I spoke to Firewomen or read the comments of Firewomen because I did not, but you would prefer me to lie just to be 'inclusive'?

This PC nonsense is another thing that has gotten out of control.

The issue here is that Firemen, and that is what was reported in the news, I have seen no mention of there being women there, let a house burn down.

If you want to start a discussion about whether or not we should always include women even if they were not there, or part of the story, for whatever your reasons are, start your own OP. That is an entirely different topic.

[we can do it]

39. Wow Why Differentiate - I am a Liberal Not a Liberalette

so it was meant towards every imbicile who feels jobs need to be labeled male or female. I have never heard anyone called a firewomen yet - and everyone else in every thread I've read has called them firefighters or the fire dept. :P

[sabrina 1]

42. I am a woman, and I don't like having that title removed

I am proud of being a woman. I do not have to compete with men, or have the word 'woman' buried in weasel words that hide gender. No possible reason I can think of to do that. If a woman belongs to the Fire Dept. then say so. Same thing for men.

And when a woman does something worthy of mentioning, such as save lives while working as a fire-fighter, I want it to be clear that it WAS a woman, not leave any doubt by simply calling her, for PC purposes a 'fighter'.

So you are free to do what makes you happy, and do me a favor, don't lecture others who have already decided what they are comfortable with, okay?

As for this:

and everyone else in every thread I've read has called them firefighters or the fire dept

The fact that 'everyone else does it' has never been a particularly motivating factor for me. Being a pretty strong woman, I am not a follower and tend to make up my own mind about things once I've given them a good deal of though.

I like the differences between men and women 'viva la differance' and am certainly not among those who appear to think there are no differences. But if what the majority does is what motivates you, great. You won't get any lectures from me as I'm not in the habit of telling other people what to do, mainly because it's not my business, and secondly, as you can see I hope, it doesn't work. Third and last, it demonstrates an assumption that the person you are lecturing is a moron who has not given the same amount of thought to something that the superior being delivering the lecture, has. Far be it from to make such an assumption without a lot of evidence that this is the case.

Back to the topic then. Those FireMEN should be ashamed to call themselves Firemen and I am happy to see that they are being pretty universally condemned for what they did. And if there were any Firewomen among them, which has not been reported so I assume there were not, the same goes for them ~ :hi:

[SargeUNN]

40. shows anger regardless of which side trumps reason

It is clear that with the events recently here and throughout the nation that anger has trumped reason and sensiblity. That is why we have the insane candidates and why they even have a chance to win, we just don't care about moving upward, just letting out our anger.

[Hannah Bell]

52. the city has 2500 people. the unincorporated county = 15,000 people.

the county chose this system. the city has no obligation to provide services to people outside the city.

sorry, but 2500 people can't carry 15,000 free riders -- who, incidentally, have a higher median income than city residents.

and if you'll read the comments more carefully, you'll find a number of posts from firefighters who agree.

[sabrina 1]

4. What about the Good Samaritan Law?

Is that just in some states, or is it a Federal Law? Sad that we need laws anyhow to force some people to do what is right. I believe that law went into effect after a woman was raped and killed in NYC while many people watched and did nothing.

[diveguy]

70. the good samaritan law

was designed to protect people from civil litigation. Case in point, man see's another having a heart attack. He does cpr. In the process, he breaks the sternum ( common with cpr ). family sees the dollar signs and sues.

Good samaritan law uses intent. Doesn't matter the level of training. If your intention is to help, you cannot be sued/arrested

[WinkyDink]

79. A by-stander cannot legally be compelled to help anyone else. You have the law wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

Exceptions: Some states (e.g., CA) have laws that one must CALL for help---not help by themselves--if a MINOR is being harmed.)

[COLGATE4]

95. Has nothing to do with this kind of situation.

[hayu_lol]

6. "These firefighters in Tennessee are a disgrace to the badge"

sounds good, but, they were from a town of 3000 several miles away in--GASP--Kentucky.

The good citizens of the rural Tennessee county where the fire took place voted down any sort of fire service at least twice. They pay no taxes to Kentucky or the town of Fulton which taxed itself to provide fire service. Many do not pay the service fee of $75/year($1.44/week)and have not paid in the past for services rendered.

$75/year is reasonable. My fire dept. taxes are over $125/year.

Most posters are knocking the wrong heads together.

[Riktor]

13. Bullshit

If you're carried into an ER, doctors will try to save your life and worry about billing you later.

A number of posters have already vocalized this point, but it seems worth reiterating: the fire department could have very well responded and billed the victim after the fact.

Never mind that the victim claimed he offered to pay the $75.00 fee that day.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

37. To be fair, your ER analogy deals with life or death consequences.

It is my understanding these pay per service departments have a policy to rescue people regardless of their payment status. The prevention and mitigation of PROPERTY damage is a different subject.

[Hannah Bell]

54. yes, the department stated they respond to all calls where human lives are in danger.

some folks are irate, however, because they don't risk their firefighters' lives to save freeloaders' puppies & kitties.

[Riktor]

87. I wasn't attempting to make a direct comparison

They could have put the fire out and billed the guy later. Hell, they could have taken him to cleaners for it, too. I mean, the guy offered to pay the fee that day.

[Hannah Bell]

53. The city used to bill county residents after the fact. More than half never paid, & the city

had no authority to make them pay, or to fine them.

As stated in this county document:

According to survey information, over 75% of all municipal fire department’s structure calls
are rural. All fire departments in Obion County charge a $500.00 fee per call in rural areas,
but collections are, less than 50% and the fire departments have no way of legally
collecting the charge. Therefore, the service was provided at the expense of the municipal
tax payer.

http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20County%20Fire%20Department%20Presentation%20Presented%20to%20the%20County%20Commission.pdf

The "city" of South Fulton has 2,500 residents.

The unincorporated county has around 15,000 residents.

You do the math.

[WinkyDink]

80. The authorities explained that they cannot subsist on "pay as you go."

[joeybee12]

17. No, most posters are right...you're simply clueless and/or heartless

you really are ok with someone's life bruning down, right? Any decent person would have helped...wherever you live, it's fucked up way of providing something everyone DESERVES.

[Mojorabbit]

22. I have to disagree. I was a nurse

and I treated everyone no matter what. It was part of the ethics of the job.
These firemen were on the scene and let animals perish in the house because the man forgot to pay his fee.
The homeowner was on Keith's show last night and he said this had happened to another person and they let a barn full of horses burn. That occupation also has a set of ethics and this is unconscionable.

[Dappleganger]

36. They let a barn full of horse burn??!!

THAT'S INHUMAN!!

[Liberty Belle]

47. They should charge them for cruelty to animals and put them all in jail.

[Hannah Bell]

57. What would the basis for such a charge be? The city of 2500 people has no obligation

to rescue horses in the unincorported county of 15,000 freeloaders who are too cheap to fund a fire service, even though they have a higher median income than the county.

The city's service area is the city, period. Fire service is offered by subscription to any individual in the county who cares to buy it BECAUSE THAT'S THE POLICY COUNTY RESIDENTS VOTED FOR, instead of starting their own fire service or assessing taxes on all residents to contract with the cities as a body.

[Hannah Bell]

56. how long would you have stayed at that hospital if you only got paid 25% of the time?

i doubt it would have been very long.

you stayed because you were paid. you wouldn't have bankrupted yourself paying the freight yourself.

but apparently you believe this town of 2500 people should bankrupt itself serving 15,000 freeloaders in the unincorporated county -- which has a higher median income than the city.

county documents admit it's the case:

According to survey information, over 75% of all municipal fire department’s structure calls
are rural. All fire departments in Obion County charge a $500.00 fee per call in rural areas,
but collections are, less than 50% and the fire departments have no way of legally
collecting the charge. Therefore, the service was provided at the expense of the municipal
tax payer.

Our common goal is to provide fire protection to all areas of Obion County without
discrimination from lack of insurance, lack of subscription, ability to pay, or the decision that
it’s outside of a fire department’s designated area of operation. A MAJOR PORTION OF OBION COUNTY HAS BEEN FURNISHED RURAL FIRE PROTECTION FREE OF CHARGE FOR DECADES.

http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20County%20Fire%20Department%20Presentation%20Presented%20to%20the%20County%20Commission.pdf

[Mojorabbit]

69. My husband is a family physician

and we are used to seeing people for free. I don't care who you are, if you let a barn full of horses burn there is something really really wrong with you if you are a firefighter and you need to find another line of work.

[Baalath]

83. You got paid & didn't risk you life

I don't think you can equate that to risking your life in a burning building. You wouldn't be without life or wc insurance if you were killed or hurt, which would devastate your family.

You are also putting at risk equipment that was paid for by someone else and they might not be able to replace and won't be there for the next emergency.

[Mojorabbit]

86. They put the fire next door out

while letting this one burn with the same risk to life and limb so the argument is moot.

[Tippy]

7. It is my understanding the fire fighters were ordered by the Chief

to Stand Down...I have family there I think most were upset because the Chief refused to take the cash, that was offered. Also a nerby field caught on fire and I believe the fire fighters put that out. There are a lot of very angry people in Obion county and it has been said the firefighters are/might on a hit list...I hope someone can bring some sanity to this issue, I would hate to see anyone hurt..

[EFerrari]

18. They were ordered to stand down and, they obeyed that order. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

59. link on this "stand down"? since they didn't answer the call at the property,

& only later answered a call at a different property, where does this "stand down" come from?

[EFerrari]

90. I first read it in an article here which made it clear that the fire fighters themselves

didn't make the decision. I'm not going to look for that today. Here's a statement from the IAFF:

International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger issued a statement Tuesday regarding the fire.

“The decision by the South Fulton Fire Department to allow a family’s home to burn to the ground was incredibly irresponsible. This tragic loss of property was completely avoidable. Because of South Fulton’s pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home. Everyone deserves fire protection because providing public safety is among a municipality’s highest priorities."

“Instead, South Fulton wants to charge citizens outside the city for fire protection. We condemn South Fulton’s ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go.”

http://www.myeyewitnessnews.com/news/local/story/Firefighters-Let-Home-Burn-Owner-Didnt-Pay-Fire/w9Bg1HxTrkmRg2pxSyw9Ag.cspx?rss=59

[Hannah Bell]

58. They didn't answer the call at the residence at all. They later answered the call at another

residence who'd paid the subscription.

This story about them going out to a burning house so they could stand and watch it burn is bullshit.

They weren't ordered to "stand down".

The city funds service in the city limits, for its 2500 residents who pay taxes to fund the department.

The unincorporated county funds no service at all for its 15,000 residents. Instead, the idiots voted to make it up to residents' individual choice whether or not to purchase service from the city.

This guy didn't buy the service, even after getting a previous fire put out for free.

The city had no legal or moral obligation to protect his property.

[deutsey]

9. Not everything should have a grimey buck attached to it

People are so fucked in the head sometimes.

[DearAbby]

10. Thom Hartman is equating this as a flat tax

the poor insuring their Mobile home for 75 dollars same as the wealthy pays for their 22 room Mansions. He has a point. This isn't right. Again, like any flat tax the poor suffers. 75 dollars for a poor person is a good chunk of money.

[zbdent]

24. and gee, I'd bet (sarcasm) that the firefighters would be alerted to the mobile home

fire as quickly as would be the 22 room mansion (with their security alert, to keep out the mobile homers, natch) ...

[Hannah Bell]

61. the county has a higher median income than the city. the unincorporated county has 15,000 residents

the city has 2,500 residents.

you might want to rethink.

[Hannah Bell]

60. The city is poorer than the county, yet is able to pay for its fire service --

and apparently you think this town of 2500 residents is rich enough to give freebies to 15,000 residents of the unincorporated county as well -- even though the county has a higher median income than the city.

totally ridiculous spin.

The charge is $6 a month.

The county chose the system, not the city.

The county chose to leave it up to individuals to subscribe, rather than taxing everyone in the unincorporated county by property values so that the rich would pay more.

complete bullshit spin.

[tavalon]

11. Nurse here

And yeah, helping, not renumeration, would be my first thought. I'm appalled at what they did. If there is such a thing as malpractice in the firefighting biz, I think they committed it.

[EFerrari]

19. Wouldn't they have a charter of some kind?

Some kind of thingy that they sign on to? It's harder to blame the firefighters because I bet there aren't many decent jobs out there for them right now. But that Chief needs to be drummed out of the vocation, period.

[tavalon]

21. I dunno

But I just can't fathom sitting and watching such a thing and not jumping in to help, even if the help might not in the end save the day.

[progressoid]

14. "if you were driving down the road and came across a car accident or a fire you'd stop to help.."

Sadly, maybe he wouldn't.

[TwilightGardener]

15. I would bet most people who have jobs helping the public in times of need

are appalled by this.

[Hannah Bell]

62. I'd bet when 75% of your fire calls come from people outside your service area who are

capable of paying but stiff you & expect you to foot the bill, you wouldn't be so appalled.

The county is bigger than the city & has a higher median income.

The city = 2500 people. The unincorporated county = 15,000 people.

The county chose the individual fee system because it didn't want to "force" any of its residents to pay if they didn't want to. Nor did it wish to tax them to set up its own fire department. Twice it shot down such proposals.

[bvar22]

23. FireFighters Here:

Both my wife & I are active members of our Rural Volunteer Fire Department.

The thought of watching someone's home burn is abhorrent.
My wife is the Director of our Department, and I am a Pumper/Tanker Driver/Operator Entry Team Member
If someone ordered me to NOT put out a burning home, I would disobey those orders without hesitation.
I would physically oppose ANYONE who tried to stop me from putting out a burning home.
Everyone on our department feels the same way.


Fuel to add to the Fire:
While we are primarily funded through DUES from homeowners in our area (about 75% compliance)
our Volunteer Department DOES receive some Federal Funding through several grants, and some funding through Homeland Security.
I'm sure EVERY Fire Department also receives these Taxpayer funds.

Even if somebody in our area has NOT payed their DUES,
they have contributed something through their Federal taxes.

My Wife & I feel the same way about Health Care.
It is a basic Human Right, NOT a For Profit commodity.
THAT is the way it should be in a civilized society.
The possibility that someone may try to game the system is NOT a valid reason for checking to see if someone has paid their dues before providing basic Humanitarian Assistance.
It is the Decent, Civilized thing to do.

[JuniperLea]

26. "I would disobey those orders without hesitation"

Right on!

About firefighting, and healthcare. Health insurance profit is nothing but BLOOD MONEY! Disgusting! There's just no way profit should be made from healthcare, firefighting, police protection... you know where I'm going with this.

We need to scream BLOOD MONEY every time we see it.

"It is the Decent, Civilized thing to do." Amen!!

Thank you... and thanks to your wife as well.

[OneGrassRoot]

27. This needs to be an OP....

Thank you, your wife and your colleagues for what you do, and for your perspective about basic humanitarian assistance.

:applause:

:hug:

[Lorien]

44. +1. nt

[Dappleganger]

38. Absofuckinglutely!

And thank you for your dedication!

[Hannah Bell]

63. South Fulton has 2500 people. The unincorporated county has 15,000 people,

& a higher median income.

Under the previous system the city billed after the fact. 75% of calls come from outside the city, & than half the county residents never paid:

"According to survey information, over 75% of all municipal fire department’s structure calls
are rural. All fire departments in Obion County charge a $500.00 fee per call in rural areas,
but collections are, less than 50% and the fire departments have no way of legally
collecting the charge. Therefore, the service was provided at the expense of the municipal
tax payer."

http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20County%20Fire%20Department%20Presentation%20Presented%20to%20the%20County%20Commission.pdf

As for the federal funding:

Even though most municipal fire departments in Obion County have benefited from AFG
and CDBG grants to upgrade apparatus and equipment, each department must have
operating funds to continue operations. Each individual municipality currently furnishes
operating funds for their fire departments without assistance from the county or state.
Federal, state and local mandates for training, apparatus, equipment and personnel are
costing each fire department more money each year, and fire departments desperately
need additional operating funds to stay caught up with these mandates.

http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20County%20Fire%20Department%20Presentation%20Presented%20to%20the%20County%20Commission.pdf

[bvar22]

81. I will bet that YOUR Fire Department receives some Federal Funding.

Our Rural Fire Department is primarily funded through dues, but we also receive Federal Funding through several grants and through Homeland Security. We also get great deals on used equipment through State and Federal programs.
We put out fires.
We do NOT let them burn.
We even put out fires at homes where the people have NOT pay their dues...what YOU call a "Freebie".
We do that because it is the Decent, Humanitarian thing to do.

I don't want to live in a World where the least common denominator sets the bar for our social morality.

Your argument is akin to "Saddam tortured, so its OK for us to torture."

[Bluenorthwest]

25. Those who let thaehouse burn should not be called firefighters

Firefighters as a whole are brave, fit, overworked and underpaid. Dedicated men and women who do what they do because they want to, and because they can. A job I could never have done on my best day. My last two homes have been quite near fire stations, and they also make very good neighbors aside from the emergency services. Here's to the real firefighters, and fuck the scum who let this house burn. Who let those animals die.
So thanks for posting this.

[Rex]

28. What we see here are people that failed economics 101.

Or just really don't understand capitalism very well.

[jgraz]

29. Maybe you can explain what capitalism has to do with essential government services.

Even if you're in favor of this insane fee system, it's still a government program and, as such, does not fall under the definition of "capitalism".

Or are you trying to say something else here?

[Rex]

31. Democracy and capitalism are embedded

with govt and politics on every level of society. We cannot expect to be 'safe' daily if there are others out there who care not one wit about the social structure and its continuation.

[JackRiddler]

94. That is ignorant and arrogant. "Economics 101" has failed the nation and the world.

[xfundy]

30. Capitalism—

—stretched to it's logical conclusion, such as that we see daily nowadays, and we are its victims. Financial schemes, huge companies buying smaller ones just to shut them up and stifle competition, credit card fat cats, repigs trying to eliminate consumer protection...

Thanks to RayGun and those who worship him (and, of course, MONEY).

[JI7]

32. Why is something like Firefighting treated like some Cable TV service

[Hannah Bell]

64. Because county residents voted to treat it that way rather than properly fund a

fire department with normal taxation.

[CTLawGuy]

74. and they came from a county that voted for Mccain 2-1

and, excluding the city, probably by a greater percentage, and probably liked that they lived in a "low tax" area.

[TexasObserver]

33. Good post and dead on.

I know two local firemen, and have worked with them on their fundraising for the local volunteer fire department for several years. Fireman #1 been one for 16 years. I was curious to have his take on it, so I asked him. He works for a fire department in a big city, but lives 75 miles away, in a small city. The big city provides the paycheck, but he also volunteers in the small city's volunteer department. What did he think? He would not dream of failing to put out a fire.

A lady who runs a local business is married to a fireman of almost 20 years. He works in a big city, but lives in a small town an hour from the big city. He volunteers. I spoke to her this morning while visiting with her about a charitable project she has. She said he was shocked that any fire department anywhere would stand there and watch a house burn down over $75.

I know both of these guys, and they're solid guys. I suspect their point of view is nearly unanimous among the fire fighters of this area. In this community and the ones around it, failing to put out a fire would be unthinkable. If it's a house fire, it's not unusual for the volunteer departments from neighboring communities to show up to help.

With the volunteer fire fighters in this community, it's still about service to the public.

[Bluerthanblue]

34. K&R

:hi:

[activa8tr]

35. Very well stated. This is just insanity fueled by $, not by best practices of

professional firefighters.

For anyone to think that "they deserve it", I only have to remind them that the Taliban and AlQaeda use the same justifications for 9/11 and all the OTHER tragedies for innocent citizens in the last few decades.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

41. As a former volunteer firefighter I find this incident disgusting on a number of different levels

This is indeed a disgrace to the profession. This is a disgrace to the community.

The stark fact of the matter is that any firefighting unit's first priority, no matter where they are, whether they are professional or volunteer, is to save lives and put out fires ASAP. Issues of money come later. It is that simple.

I would have no problem with a fire department charging out the ass to those who don't subscribe. That is what we did in the unit I was with. But you put out the fire, period.

This is completely without merit, a disgrace to firefighters everywhere, and should not be repeated.

[Swede]

43. Here are some that have the other point of view.

If the rules of the people who write the checks are at fault not the firefighters themselves Fire protection is not free it cost lots of money and someone must pay for it. If my town council said we could no longer respond outside of city then we would no longer respond. I wouldn't like it but they pay the bills so they make the rules it sucks but that is how it works. You cant blame the firefighter for doing what they were told. I sure it was killing them to stand by and watch but what else could you do if your job was on the line.

Don't preach to me about duty. For 33 years, I have, and still will, put my hide at risk for other people, and for FREE. I do, however, expect some help from those I'm helping. Buy a smoke detector, plan an escape route, wear your seatbelt, help pay for a firetruck, etc. If there is a financial issue, bring it to the department's attention. There are food stamps and all other types of aid; something can always be worked out. DON'T EXPECT OTHER PEOPLE TO PROVIDE FOR YOUR WANTON NEGLECT. We have one homeowner in our area; half-million dollar home; lives between and outside 2 fire districts; wealthy man; won't pay a dime to either district; never contributes or attends any fundraising event at either dept. I make YOU sick? He makes ME sick. That's all I have to say about that.

Why do those idiots outside the city chose NOT to have a fire service? Why is the city department taking the heat?
They were there protecting the house next door which had contracted their service. They had a duty to act and did it.
How much man power and resources were committed to other areas of the fire? How many resources were left to protect the city?
A lot of assumptions being made on here with limited information.
For the Chief who said he would fire his guys, wow just wow.

Fire Apparatus & equipment cost money to purchase. Someone has to provide the necessary funding. Concerned, sensible, prudent individuals are willing to contribute toward this goal. Selfish, stingy tightwads sponge off of other people. Cronic gamblers believe they will always be lucky. Well, luck doesn't always go our way and it is reprehensible to expect others to pay our debts. Who would build or purchase a $200,000+ house and not insure it? We expect too much from the world. Pray that God will save you, but get off the tracks when you hear the whistle. Should I risk my life, the lives of my unpaid firemen, and a firetruck paid for & insured with other people's money for someone too stingy to attend our dept spaghetti supper, buy our fund-raising raffle ticket, or pay a subscription fee? I'll have to think hard about that one.

This appears to be a city department willing to cover a rural area. The rural area needs to step up to the plate and form a department. As far as the department standing by, too bad. Those living in the rural area were able to buy into the protection and those that did have coverage and those that don't made that choice. It was the only way to offset the cost to the city taxpayers. If they just put out all fires, who would pay?

[Whisp]

45. still can't believe so many here on DU think the FF were right

but maybe I can.

some familiar names come up that think some other very odd things as well.

*spits

[Incitatus]

49. I can

and some of those familiar names come as no surprise.

[Hannah Bell]

66. yes, the folks who want the poorer, smaller cities to fund fire services for the larger, richer,

libertarian county -- "for the love" -- are no surprise.

75% of fire calls come from outside the municipalities -- from the free riders.

From a county document proposing a rural fire service (shot down):


"Our common goal is to provide fire protection to all areas of Obion County without
discrimination from lack of insurance, lack of subscription, ability to pay, or the decision that
it’s outside of a fire department’s designated area of operation.

A MAJOR PORTION OF OBION COUNTY HAS BEEN FURNISHED RURAL FIRE PROTECTION FREE OF CHARGE FOR DECADES.

Statistics indicate that the majority of all fire calls are rural in nature and are responded to
by municipal fire departments.

These departments are solely funded by the tax dollars belonging to each individual town or city.

It is becoming more difficult to convince municipal leaders that the municipal fire departments responding to calls outside the municipal boundaries and for which no compensation is guaranteed is “just the right thing to do”."

http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20County%20Fire%20Department%20Presentation%20Presented%20to%20the%20County%20Commission.pdf

[JTFrog]

68. From the free riders?

I wonder why some folks only post WSWS links when they find negative arcticles about Democrats. :shrug:

http://wsws.org/articles/2010/oct2010/tenn-o06.shtml

The blaze could have easily been put out by the fire department if firefighters had been authorized to respond when emergency calls were first made. The fire broke out after a trash fire spread from a barrel into the yard of Gene and Paulette Cranick, the homeowners.

~~~

The fire policies of South Fulton and an identical one in nearby Union City have long been a flashpoint between the residents and the local governments. Fatal fires are all too common in Tennessee, with the poor who live in mobile homes or doubled up in apartments, many without utilities, most at risk. In April 1996, a devastating house fire claimed the lives of six family members, including five children, in South Fulton. It took more than an hour for fire crews to respond, according to press reports at the time.

~~~

After a South Fulton house was left to burn to the ground on July 2, 2008, the city government was compelled to hold a meeting to address public anger over the fire service fee, which was first imposed on rural residents in 1990. The home of Richard Cruse was allowed to burn uncontrollably, in spite of numerous calls to 9-1-1. The fire burned for at least 40 minutes, while residents sprayed the area with garden hoses. Firefighters were not given the go-ahead to intervene until the fire threatened to spread to two neighboring homes.

At the meeting, residents expressed outrage that the fire could have killed people. Then-Mayor Ronald Haskins commented, “hate they lost the house. But if I wrecked my car and I didn’t have insurance on it, they’re not going to pay for it and the city is not going to pay for it.” Articulating the widely felt frustration of residents, a physician who ran a clinic across the street from the Cruse home responded to the mayor that it wasn’t in her code of ethics to ask someone if they have insurance or can pay before she treated them. “I take care of the patient and hope I get paid.”

[Hannah Bell]

50. and the counterpoint, which you neglected:

Submitted by chief6400 on Tue, 10/05/2010 - 10:53am.

This appears to be a city department willing to cover a rural area. The rural area needs to step up to the plate and form a department. As far as the department standing by, too bad. Those living in the rural area were able to buy into the protection and those that did have coverage and those that don't made that choice. It was the only way to offset the cost to the city taxpayers. If they just put out all fires, who would pay?

Submitted by JimboKalin on Tue, 10/05/2010 - 7:51am.
Fire subscription fees are as archaic as leather hose and horse drawn apparatus. A tax supported fire protection district is the answer for these rural areas. Tennessee, please join the rest of the USA in the 21st. century.

Submitted by MemphisE34a on Mon, 10/04/2010 - 6:34pm.
There is no "duty to act" outside of your jurisdictional boundaries. This was a City department that was notified of a call in the County.

Submitted by txarsoncop on Mon, 10/04/2010 - 5:21pm.
Tough spot to be in. We were stuck in between the same rock and a hard place. Luckily we never had to deal with a structure fire situation. How do you tell a property owner in your response area that you can't respond to their fire because all of your units are committed fighting a fire out of your area?

I agree with 'duty to act' but at the same time you have a 'responsibility to act' to the citizens of your response area. It sounds like this department was offering coverage to residents outside of their city limits. If the property owner didn't want to pay for the service (contract) then he made his choice. Without the contract you have no legal recourse if you fight his fire and burn another contracted/city property down because you don't have enough resources available.

[Fumesucker]

55. I wouldn't bother Hannah..

It's clear that these people want the poorer city folks to pay for fire protection for the far larger and more wealthy county.

[Hannah Bell]

65. it's becoming increasingly clear, yes.

[pecwae]

71. k&r.

[diveguy]

72. people are so quick to jump on the bandwagon.

Folks, the firefighters did not watch a house burn. They were never dispatched. Most likely the dispatcher or chief said no. If dispatched, the firefighters would not hesitate to do what they love.

Being the chief of my dept, i know how hard it is to hold these guys back. Watch a mobile home burn, and you'll see what i mean.

Let me tell you what happened to us a few years ago. We are a city dept, that also covers part of the county, and assists other dept's throughout the county. A new county commission decided they could save a few dollars by dropping our firefighters from the county insurance. The city's insurance only covers people/equipment inside the city limits.

Now, as chief, do i tell the guys to go anyway. No. I tell them they can respond to assist with any call they choose. I wont stop them from that. But, they are on their own. If they are injured or killed, their families will get nothing from life insurance or workman's comp.

The uproar from county residents after their homeowners insurance increased, as well as, the response times for calls going from 4 minutes to 30 minutes, changed the commissions minds

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. They WERE dispatched

and they watered the hedge to protect the NEIGHBORS property that was up to date in payment.

[diveguy]

92. they were not dispatched

until the neighbor called 911.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. They were THERE

standing by... or are my lying eyes lying to me?

[diveguy]

96. i cant see the picture to clearly, but

does that hat say " police ". if it was a firefighter, it would have " fire dept " on it

[Hubert Flottz]

73. The shoe on the other foot here in West Virginia...

UPDATE 10/02/10 @ 11:40 p.m.
SISSONVILLE, W.Va. (WSAZ) -- A fire at a fire station has left a band of brothers with a pile of rubble and a recovery that's painful.

Sissonville Volunteer Fire Department lost everything including three trucks and a plethora of equipment after a blaze broke out at one of their three stations Friday.

The cause of what started the fire isn't completely clear, however, the state fire marshal says it's not suspicious and was accidental.

Firefighters spent Saturday sifting through the remnants of what's left, unable to find anything salvageable.

The damage is now estimated at more than $1.5 million, making it a devastating loss to those who have worked there for decades and helped build the station from the ground up.

Read more... http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/Sissonville_Community_to_Get_Update_on_Devastating_Fire.html

Should the people in this area have pity? I think they will.

[Dash87]

75. This is what happens when people in a society value money more than people.

It's a sociopathic disease that is spreading. :(

♥

[stray cat]

77. People want low taxes and someone else to pay for the services they need

[Dash87]

78. Why not just put out the fire and charge later, and then take them to court if they don't pay?

♥

[stray cat]

76. We should all pay for the common good -no opting out of taxes

If we want to employ fire fighters in a community we have to pay their salaries and provide equipment including safety equipment. We already have towns that rely on their volunteers who make a tremendous sacrifice for the communities. If it is important to the good of society we must all invest in it -much like not opting out of health insurance or car insurance

[Forkboy]

82. Some DUers are fucked up on this one.

These people have issues.

[NYC Liberal]

84. I think this one says it pretty well:

Quote

Yes, technically it's wrong for the son to seek out Chief Wilds and belt him.

Frankly... I think Chief Wilds deserved to get his butt kicked. So does the town's mayor, and every cop on the police force, and every little simpering twit that CALLS themselves firefighters in that town.

They have brought immense dishonor to the fire service through their behavior. The standard is simple... "You call... we come and do all we can do to solve the emergency... PERIOD. All other concerns are SECONDARY."

Any individual in the fire service, who cannot live up to that SIMPLE standard... does NOT deserve to wear the badge or battle gear of a firefighter. Any individual who would practice to wear either of those things of honor, who would NOT directly oppose an ORDER, to stand down, in the face of an emergency, as happened in Tennessee... does NOT deserve to call themselves a firefighter.

Here's hoping the fire departments in Kentucky, who include South Fulton, TN in their mutual aid agreements, will forthwith TERMINATE those agreements entirely, and cease to recognize that department, or its members as 'firefighters' in any capacity. Here's also hoping, that none of the members of the South Fulton, TN fire department, are EVER granted the opportunity to apply for ANY firefighting job between here and hell, for as long as they shall live.

There's no excuse for an emergency call for help going unanswered ANYWHERE in the United States of America. PERIOD.

I hope the powers that be in Tennessee, particularly at the level of the state fire marshall, will investigate this incident, and this department's failure in duty, and will order that department immediately decommissioned, and their firefighters disqualified from any further emergency services work anywhere in the state.

Their abdication of duty, to me, should be viewed as disparagingly as we would view an arsonist, a rapist, or a murderer. The emergency services COUNT on the PUBLIC TRUST. That's what the badges worn stand for... a symbol of solemn public trust... to do the right thing, for the right reasons, in providing responders for missions of mercy whenever the call for help goes out, regardless of race, creed, citizen status, gender, social station, religion, financial status or anything else. THAT is what firefighters, cops, EMTs/Paramedics and rescuers DO.

And we have now seen that public trust broken blatantly and brazenly.

To call what those knotheads did, 'unprofessional' is about the biggest understatement in the history of mankind. Not to mention, it's just damned inexcusable.

South Fulton Tennessee fire department, and its members, voluntarily have chosen by their actions to leave the brotherhood in my eyes. I for one, hope every firefighter that remembers what this business is about, will recognize their decision to leave the brotherhood and treat them accordingly from this day on.

[TexasObserver]

97. THAT is the point of view of most fire fighters, and a proper one.

[TwilightGardener]

98. Wow.

[femrap]

85. Hell, if I could get a hold

of a garden hose to help stop the fire, I would. And I wouldn't expect to be paid either.

Seriously, I am so sick of selfish people. I try to help anyone who is in distress. It's the moral thing to do.