Fire department fees: An abdication of government

[MrScorpio]

It's absurd to charge motorists when the fire department shows up at the scene of an accident.

July 26, 2010

Democrats and Republicans validly debate the size and reach of government. But certain services have always been considered fundamental. During California's pioneer days, rudimentary municipal services sprang up when communities of settlers agreed to chip in to provide common law enforcement, fire protection and, usually, basic public education.

In the latest efforts to close the gaps in public budgets, though, an increasing number of California cities are ripping holes in the fabric of local government. More than two dozen municipalities, including Stockton and Roseville, now charge motorists who are involved in auto accidents that require the fire department to respond to the scene. That might be for emergency rescue or putting out a fire with foam. Some charge anyone involved in a crash; many levy a fee only on nonresidents who have the bad luck to be in an accident in such inhospitable locales.

Several municipalities bill only insured motorists, on the assumption that insurance companies will cover the cost. That's particularly wrongheaded because it rewards people who illegally fail to insure their vehicles.

Snip:

Cities that impose such fees are abandoning the commitment to the common good that inspired people to form fire departments in the first place: the idea that we should all share the cost of putting out fires, of rescuing the injured and trapped. What's more, they give fire departments a financial incentive to show up whether or not they're needed; every accident represents a potential source of revenue. And what's the accident victim supposed to say? Go away, I can't afford the jaws of life?


The rest: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/26/opinion/la-ed-fire-20100726

[malaise]

1. I feel very sorry for the family in Tennessee

losing your pets and your home is painful, but it isn't the worst time for this debate.

[KeepItReal]

2. Clowns like Glen Beck jeered them today

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/10/05/beck-producer-mock-firefighters/

[malaise]

4. Fuck Glen Beck

and fuck all the people here who supported this criminal act.

Let them shrink government to the size of a bathtub and see who really suffers - fucking morons.

I'm so glad KO has made this a national story.
This is what the RETHUGS and Teabaggers want.
Robert Reich is on with Keith now.

[Rex]

5. If Glen is a clown, then we have a lot of clowns on DU.

Actually, a tiny minority of posters here have rooted on the destruction as 'fair'. Regardless if it goes against common sense, just some stubborn types here that can't stand to be wrong. You would think the fact that NONE of their OPs have recs would make them get a clue...but no.

[malaise]

8. I'm no longer shocked

at the lack of compassion demonstrated every hour of the day.
I can't survive in such a selfish individualistic society.

[JuniperLea]

12. +1

I feel physically ill after reading some of these threads. That Glenn Beck is in agreement with those who lack compassion here is vile in itself, but to argue so strongly in favor of a money issue against a human compassion issue... when do I give up? When do I stop worrying? Never... I'm stuck. Fuckity fuck.

[Bluerthanblue]

26. +1 from me too-

to both of you.

I'm not surprised either. Saddened and disappointed, but not surprised.
But we can't give up-
:grouphug:

[Cirque du So-What]

6. Along with various & sundry RW assholes

Now that it's becoming common knowledge that Head Wreck Beck et al think it was a fine thing to let the MF burn, how many of those on DU will cling to that notion? Will they stick to their guns and continue to identify with RW assholes, or will there be a precipitous drop-off in this harsh attitude on DU. Personaly, I expect the latter; they'll compromise their 'principles' (such as they are) when there's the slightest possibility of ridicule.

[stray cat]

3. If voters choose lower taxes they choose fewer services and gov protections

People don't like to hear the two are linked. They want good services and government help that some one else pays for them -

[RoccoR5955]

7. If they choose that, then they live in a fantasy land.

They are being totally unrealistic if they think that they can get government services, and not have to pay for them.

I blame it on Reagan, who said that government can do no good, THEN PROVED IT, while in office.

[JuniperLea]

14. That's no excuse for letting a man's home and pets burn to a fucking crisp...

Jesus God... I better just shut this fucking computer down right now before I say something that gets me fucking banned.

[TexasObserver]

9. Sir, Yes, Sir!! I couldn't agree more.

It is an abdication of the role government has played for 100 years. It is a throw back to a time when you had to hire fire fighters and pay them. Someone finally said "hey, this is idiotic. We need fire fighters for every fire. It's a benefit to all of us."

And thus was born reason and compassion in the process.

Then the Reaganites came along, and this "fee" system emerged as yet another abdication of the traditional role of government in favor of libertarian principles.

I can't believe we have posters who argue the Reagan/Rand side of this issue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. A bit more than 100 years

Ben Franking started the FIRST publicly funded Fire Department in Philadelphia, It became fashionable after the Chicago Fire.

:-)

[Canuckistanian]

10. Do you get it NOW, apologists?

"abandoning the commitment to the common good that inspired people to form fire departments in the first place"

Do you even UNDERSTAND the importance of the "common good"??

[Pithlet]

11. Do you understand that most of the people "apologizing" for it

Aren't defending the practice? They're merely saying it's what the people voted for. The firefighters providing the service were from a separate city. The city doesn't have the authority to tax them because they're in a different district (hell, a different state). The fee was the only way to collect money to provide the service. The county the homeowner lived in repeatedly voted not to raise taxes to fund the city's fire department. There may be a small few who actually favor such a system on DU, but they're in the minority.

[JuniperLea]

13. That's not the point...

The point is the compassionate human thing to do is to ignore the rules, ignore what was voted for, and help the goddamn man and his fucking animals!!! Jesus GOD!!!

[Pithlet]

15. But there are consequences if those rules are ignored.

The city will lose their fire department when they no longer have enough money to run it, for one thing. They can't just provide those services for free, much as you'd like them to be able to. Hell, I wish they could, too. But we have to pay our taxes. We all do. That is why the Libertarian mindset doesn't work.

[JuniperLea]

16. Bull fucking shit...

The compassion shown would open conversation, ideas would be hatched, a better way found... but no, let it fucking burn... let the animals die... wtf?

[Pithlet]

19. But they did it! They were showing up anyway. It wasn't working.

I live in Tennessee. I'm surrounded by taxophobes. They don't get it.

[Hannah Bell]

31. 2500 people in the city, 32K in the freeloading county. 75% of the city's fire calls

come from outside its funding area.

bullshit on your drama.

[JuniperLea]

36. Bullshit on your money above people filth

This is a new low

[Hannah Bell]

30. not buying your drama.

[Mudoria]

38. Nor am I...

[Canuckistanian]

18. Then they should be CONDEMNING the people who voted for it

I see NO such posts here. At the rate some are blaming the victim here, I don't think I'm in the right place here.

FUCK.

[Pithlet]

23. But they are. I have. I've seen others as well.

On the other hand, I've seen many posts blaming the firefighters, of all things, and saying they should have put the fire out. Talk about misplaced blame! I guess the company should just keep putting out their fires in this county that keeps voting not to fund them and going bankrupt. But yet we're the ones who are so harsh and Repbulican like. Not getting it at all. It's not blaming the victim. It's stating reality.

[Hannah Bell]

32. we do condemn the people who voted for & supported. that would be the county residents

& their elected officials, who won't fund fire service because they can leech off a city of 2500 people who have a publicly funded service.

[MrScorpio]

17. Damn Skippy. nt

[depakid]

24. Nope

Unlike countries like Canada or Australia, America willingly developed an "ethic" of people getting or "not getting" what they deserve or don't deserve based on various morality codes, which are quite independent of any social contract or overall economic benefit.

This is why they will never have universal health care for example- or a responsible safety net. Too many people are quite willing to cut off their own noses- to risk impoverishing their own selves or worse, just to ensure that some poor sod down the street doesn't "get something" that they think he "doesn't deserve."

[Canuckistanian]

25. Maybe that's it

This would NEVER happen in Canada. We wouldn't allow such conditions to exist in the first place.

I guess we do have a stronger social contract.

I guess I'm just shocked that people I thought I've known for years feel this way.

[depakid]

27. Having lived abroad more than once and gone back & forth, that's one of the more telling differences

I've observed about Americans vis a vis Aussies and Brits.

Every friend and colleague I've recounted the story to here in Australia has uniformly gone:

:wtf:

and had no use whatsoever for the "arguments" put forth by some here on this site. Not only had no use for, but reacted as if this couldn't be true or that surely someone would be facing some jail time.

[Hannah Bell]

29. do you understand that it was the county (pop 32K) who chose the policy,

of fee for service, the county which twice refused to fund a volunteer fire dept of its own, and the county who apparently still expects a city of 2500 to fight its fires for free?

the "common good" = freerider libertarian teabaggers bankrupting public services?

really?

[applegrove]

20. The GOPers must be laughing. They love it when communities are deminished.

[Pithlet]

33. I think some are going off without knowing or caring to know all the facts. n/t

[applegrove]

35. They are trained to hate everything that is good governance or good government services.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. True story

Oh back in oh 1989 or so, we responded to a car crash. It was a run of the mill crash... ok the back bumper was loaded.

So our SINGLE driver is massaging his neck... big warning sign. So I come over C-Collars in hand...

Hey what hurts?

My neck.

Ok, we'd better take you to the ER to make sure...

I CANNOT AFFORD IT, I don't have insurance. His eyes got really big.

So to make a long story short, it took me forty five minutes to convince him to let us transport, and that NO we don't charge... so we FINALLY got him on C-SPINE precs and on backboard and off to the ER we go. They took an X-Ray... surprise surprise there was a fracture in his neck.

So the docs got him a nicer collar, still got it stiff, but a little more comfortable and we contacted the family. To make this even shorter, after doing a financial review... WE transported to the US side Trauma Unit, where we had the Social Worker waiting for means testing and all of that.

Think about it... why I KNOW we need single payer and taxes to fund tilly shit like a fire department.

Oh and how much did we charge the family? Whatever they could DONATE to us, which wasn't much... I think we got back 20 bucks, which is all they could afford.

[Hannah Bell]

28. The city didn't impose the fee. The county chose not to fund fire service & instead allow its

residents to contract, as individuals, with the city for fire service.

The city has a tax base of only 2500 residents. 75% of its calls come from the county, outside the city limits.

Under previous policy, all those calls were served & county residents were billed. More than half never paid.

The county has 32K residents.

what do you expect the city to do when the county won't fund fire service?

[cynatnite]

34. So, if you have all the equipment with you and the house is burning...

you wouldn't put out the fire because of $75.

There is a common sense approach to solve the problem. It's called taxes. 0.13 percent sales tax would cover everyone in the county.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/10/05/after-firefighters-obion-expands/

[Hannah Bell]

37. yes, & the county considered that option & rejected it numerous times.

most recently, within the last 4 years.

who's going to make them do it?

all you folks with your "should be's" & "it's so simple"

no, not so simple if the people in question DON'T WANT TO DO IT.