The philosophy of the Democratic Party is that we don't let houses burn down

[WeekendWarrior]

We work together to help each other. We don't check the books to make sure a family has paid their dues. We give help when needed -- through our pocketbooks or with our labor.

If you don't believe in that, then I'm sorry, this party isn't for you. I'm sure the Tea Baggers would love to have you.

[closeupready]

1. +1

n/t

[live love laugh]

65. +++1 This is a microcosm and a reminder of NOLA. nt

[Renew Deal]

2. I think that's the philosophy of civilized society

Let the republicans have the inhumane and uncivilized mobs.

[calimary]

69. It's the philosophy of everyone who really believes in following Jesus - according to what He said.

I spent 14 years in Catholic school. And not once did I ever find or was taught or was told to study any passage from the New Testament that said "Blessed are the bullies," or "Blessed are the rich," or "Blessed are the war-makers."

[Fumesucker]

3. Does the FD of Obion county go and help the FD of South Fulton when they have a fire?

That's what working together is all about, right, you help me, I help you?

[Renew Deal]

7. That's how fire departments typically work.

They cover for each other because most departments don't have enough resources to be at 2-3 places at once.

[Fumesucker]

11. Yes I know that..

What I want to know specifically is if the Obion county fire department ever assists the South Fulton city fire department when they have a tough fire in their jurisdiction?

[Bunny]

13. Of course they don't. Because there is no Obion County fire department!

There is no 'mutual aid contract' between the two jurisdictions.

(I know you know this - it's amazing how many people want to shoot their mouths off without having all the facts, isn't it?)

[LiberalAndProud]

67. I think you already know this Fumesucker, but JIC, Obion County has no fire department.

They are supposed to. They are supposed to abosorb the city FD's into the county and add some rural stations. They haven't. Do you think they will? I think probably not. They certainly won't if they can strong arm towns into footing the bill for them. Which is evidently the strategy for now.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Obion CO don't have a FD

that is why Fulton does this, and they should stop, by your own logic

[mainer]

60. Olbion County doesn't care a whit about helping SF.

They just want what they have, and they expect to get it.

It's all one-way help, from what it sounds like. Olbion sounds like a parasite.

[whistler162]

118. There ISN'T a Obion County fire department......

Which is why South Fulton KY offered to handle fire for people who subscribed, for a meaningless fee(yes in the scheme of things $75 is meaningless when talking about roling a fire engine and crew). Cranick knew he was taking a gamble, knew the worth of the service(previous fire on a sons' property), and was approached multiple times to subscribe to the service("forgot"). Not a great system but until Obion County steps up to the plate and creates a actual fire department the primary fault lies with the county officials and Cranick but everyone is focusing on the fire department and its members.

[Poll_Blind]

4. +1

Straight up. It's the only way to be. Anything else is the jungle and I reject that.

PB

[SidDithers]

5. K&R...nt

Sid

[sinkingfeeling]

6. Not true. The Democratic Party still believes in taxes to pay for public services. We believe in

people being free to make their own decisions about what is important to them. If one chooses not to pay a fee for fire protection, that you are accepting the responsibility to do it yourself.

[WeekendWarrior]

9. With all due respect, sir, you are full of shit

We pay taxes to COVER EVERYONE'S debt. Not just our own.

[sinkingfeeling]

10. That's exactly what I said. We believe in taxes for public services.

[WeekendWarrior]

12. Accept you added THIS LINE:

"If one chooses not to pay a fee for fire protection, that you are accepting the responsibility to do it yourself. "

If one chooses not pay a fee, he gets helped anyway. It's called caring about human beings despite their failures.

[uncommon]

20. The residents of the county CHOSE this fee structure. That choice came with the caveat that

if the fees weren't paid, the home wouldn't be protected.

Why did they choose that for themselves?

[WeekendWarrior]

38. I don't CARE why. I don't CARE what they chose.

Our philosophy is to help people. Do you disagree with that?

[KittyWampus]

56. you are yelping like a small child. It's irrelevant what your philosophy is in this case

because you don't live in said community nor are you a fire fighter whose salary, equipment and safety depend on adequate funding.

[WeekendWarrior]

72. Right -- let's forget what we believe in

Because, hey, it's all about taxes and money and making a political point at the expense of others.

Empathy? Caring?

That's just bullshit, right? None of that matters.

Disgusting.

Those fire fighters were human beings who should have helped regardless of what the "rules" were -- and those who think they shouldn't have really have their priorities screwed up.

[BzaDem]

81. The salary, equipment, safety bullshit is just a canard. They could charge the FULL cost of putting

out the fire. Plus the proportional cost for salaries/maintenance/trucks/etc. The homeowner even OFFERED to pay this in his call. They would not have a financial problem at all.

[Recursion]

99. You need to research a little more about this

The fire department had been billing county residents for calls (75% of the FD's calls were to these people) but the county residents would just stiff them -- like this guy did the previous time he had a fire -- and the city couldn't do anything to get the money.

[sinkingfeeling]

22. I donate a lot of money every year to a lot of good causes, but I don't believe in donating tax

dollars to people who don't want to pay. Cities have budgets and folks living in incorporated areas pay taxes for their services. This county whose Commissioner Seals doesn't think should be in the 'fire protection business' wants the citizens of county to be able to choose whether or not to have the service. Why should the residents of a city pay for something that serves them 25% of the time while the county residents receive 80% of services for free?

[WeekendWarrior]

40. Why should we pick up an old lady when she fell off the curb?

That's her problem, not mine. She should have watched where she was going. Or spent money to get some better glasses.

Who pays taxes to whom doesn't even enter into this equation. Don't you get that?

[sinkingfeeling]

45. Yes, it does. You're confusing compassion for a politicial party.

[WeekendWarrior]

73. Compassion DEFINES the Democratic Party

Once you forget that, you're lost.

[rhett o rick]

87. It used to. We now have New-Democrats in our "big tent". They brought their principles with them.

[WeekendWarrior]

125. "principles?"

Uh-huh. Rationalize it however you want.

[rhett o rick]

130. "their principles". I am not saying I like them but they are still called principles, even if bad.nm

[KittyWampus]

57. Helping an old lady up off the curb doesn't require special equipment or a 2 hour drive or endanger

your life.

[WeekendWarrior]

74. So then it's all about money to you?

Wow. Okay.

[JNelson6563]

16. And in the typical tax system

Where public services like fire protection are covered, do we check out if homeowner is behind in paying their taxes before going to put out their fire? Not to my knowledge.

Julie

[rhett o rick]

86. Apparently the Democratic Party has changed. Maybe it's the influx of Old Republicans. nm

[Lucian]

91. You're also an idiot.

[TheKentuckian]

8. K&R

[hedgehog]

14. I agree with you, but I also think it's time that people be faced

with the consequences of the Tea Party agenda. I point you to a recent article in Rolling Stone describing a large number of people at Tea Party rallies riding around on scooter provided by Medicaid.

Once a man claimed he could get mules to follow order with a mere whisper. A farmer hired him to train his baulky mule. The man came and whispered in the mule's ear; nothing. He tried again, nothing. Then the man picked up a 2X4 and whacked the mule across the nose. After that, the mule was happy to follow orders.
The farmer was enraged - "I thought you could get the mule to work just by whispering the orders!

"I can, the man said, "But first I have to get his attention!"

[WeekendWarrior]

15. I don't think we sacrifice people's homes to make a point

Imagine what could have happened if a bunch of people who care had jumped in and said, fuck the fee, let's save this guy's house. He might change his philosophy a bit. Although I really have no idea what his philosophy is, nor do I care. A human being is a human being. If he's in distress, we help. When we have a natural disaster like an earth quake or a flood do we ignore the people who didn't pay their taxes?

[hedgehog]

27. As unfortunate as things turned out for this individual, this

event may be the wake-up call people need before the mid-terms.

[WeekendWarrior]

32. And I think some of the reactions to this debacle

by people here on DU should be a wake up call to all of us that this is no longer Democratic Underground but FYYDC -- Fuck You, You Deserved It Central.

We have been invaded by people who SIMPLY DO NOT CARE.

That's the bottom line.

[oldlib]

48. I agree.

The Democratic philosophy is to provide assistance to everyone period. I can't understand the DU members that are making the argument otherwise.

[Pithlet]

112. Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

I wish money weren't an issue. I wish there were gobs of money that never ran out. And then no one would have to worry about it. But it will never be so. I don't think his house should have burned down because he deserved it. I think the fire department had no choice. There's a difference.

[Pithlet]

113. Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

I wish money weren't an issue. I wish there were gobs of money that never ran out. And then no one would have to worry about it. But it will never be so. I don't think his house should have burned down because he deserved it. I think the fire department had no choice. There's a difference.

[Pithlet]

114. Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

I wish money weren't an issue. I wish there were gobs of money that never ran out. And then no one would have to worry about it. But it will never be so. I don't think his house should have burned down because he deserved it. I think the fire department had no choice. There's a difference.

[hedgehog]

31. Regarding your question about people who've been flooded out -

Yes, we do in fact have a policy of ignoring those who failed to "pay their taxes" (i.e. purchase flood insurance) ahead of time. The goal of the policy was to discourage people from building on flood plains and/or at least build up a cash reserve to repair flood damage. I am unsure as to how strictly we hew to this policy. One of the biggest draw-backs is that local governments, often controlled by local real estate interests, had a big say in designating flood plains.

[WeekendWarrior]

35. This isn't about tax policies, don't you get that?

It's about helping people when they're down. THAT'S WHAT WE DO. That has been the Democratic Party philosophy -- hell the HUMAN philosophy -- for as long as I can remember. We fight AGAINST people who don't give a damn and think it's every man for himself.

[Recursion]

110. This is entirely about tax policies. This is about being done with freeloading conservatives

...who want all the benefits of a civilised society without paying for it.

The Glenn-Beck-loving county is stealing from the city. The city did a little bit to put a stop to it. Good for them.

[KittyWampus]

58. I think a lot of DU'ers don't believe in sacrifice, discipline or the value of taking responsibility

for ones actions.

[seabeyond]

17. we should also oppose a libertarian policy that is out to gut the democratic tax all/protect all

safety nets that we have in place

at the very least

[Bunny]

18. Actually, the Tea Baggers brought this on themselves.

They refused to fund their own fire department, because they didn't want to pay any more taxes to the evil socialist government. So their only recourse was to buy a subscription to fire service from the neighboring town. Those who chose not to buy the service are shit outta luck, which they have since found out. They love their libertarian values until it blows up in their face, and then they want to cry for help from the socialist government. Funny how their rugged individualism is situational, isn't it?

[WeekendWarrior]

24. Wow, we showed THEM, didn't we?

That's a pretty ugly sentiment in the face of what happened to this guy's family. I'm sorry, but as much as I hate the tea baggers and their bullshit, I can't go along with you.

[Bunny]

25. Tha's fine, I don't need you to 'go along' with me.

I'm pretty sure that you, like so many others, completely miss the point of this whole situation.

[WeekendWarrior]

28. I haven't missed the point of being HUMANE

I'm sorry, I don't believe in sacrificing a guy's house to make a political point. That's what tea baggers are willing to do. That's what Republicans believe in. That's what Libertarians thrive on.

I'm a Democrat. We don't follow that philosophy.

[uncommon]

19. We don't let houses burn down because we institute sufficient taxes to provide public

services to the citizenry.

If the citizens fight those taxes, and win, they won't like what they get, which will be more of what we saw this week.

[WeekendWarrior]

23. Then perhaps we need an I PAID MY TAXES card

that we can show to fire fighters when they come to our burning house.

Your don't punish people for not paying their taxes or fighting against taxes by letting their houses burn down. You help them when they're in need, then you go through legal channels, political channels and due process to make sure you get the funding you require. If you don't have enough funding, you learn to compensate. You DON'T stand there and watch a guy's house burn down.

[uncommon]

26. The missing piece here is that this community chose this - they chose to fund it this way, and they

chose for those who did not pay to not get service.

If they don't like it that they got what they asked for, they need to change their tune and institute a different system.

I don't like that this happened, but it IS what will continue to happen if the teabaggers get their way.

[WeekendWarrior]

29. There IS no missing piece

It doesn't matter what these people chose when it comes down to what is happening on this board. We're all supposed to be Democrats and the Democratic philosophy is that we HELP PEOPLE.

When did that change?

Yes, these people need to change their system and maybe they've learned a lesson. But that doesn't change the "fuck them" attitude that seems to be permeating this board. It's ugly and has no place here.

[KittyWampus]

59. WE don't live there. That's the point. You obviously can't comprehend not everyone is you.

[SidDithers]

30. Sometimes the "community" needs to be protected from its own dumb decisions...nt

Sid

[PVnRT]

75. Um....yes, you do punish people for not paying their taxes

It's called "tax evasion." The IRS handles many cases of it a year.

[BillStein]

21. volunteer fire departments...

....depend on public support- some of it from taxes, some from private donations and fundraising. I support my local fire dept. with annual donations.

My home may never catch fire, but supporting the firefighters is the best way to ensure that a fire in the house next door doesn't set my house afire.

I work with the local horticultural society to help keep public gardens looking nice. As far as I know, no one objects to people who don't support our work enjoying the flowers.

I'm a Democrat because I believe in working together to make the world a better place :grouphug:

[hayu_lol]

37. Weekend has seen fit to ignore several details...

The guy who started this fire had a fire at another location 3 years ago. At that time, he had opted to 'forget' about paying the $75/year fee. The fire department put out that fire, billed him for services rendered. He has not yet paid that bill--neither has he paid the service fee.

There are 15,000 people living in this unincorporated rural area. They have refused to start and maintain any sort of fire department. The Kentucky town of 2500 people tax themselves to support their small fire department. The same department who volunteered to serve this Tennessee county for a yearly fee of $75. Probably cost them more for fuel to get to this place.

The people of Abion County have no fire department. They like it this way.

Most important detail: The neighbor next to the freeloader paid the fee. The fire department gave him service, put out the fire when it crossed the property line. Thats why the fire dept.was there.

What if they had put this guys housefire out and the fee-paying neighbor got burned out because the firemen were busy?

The DEVIL is in the details as they say.

[BillStein]

42. if I lived in the house next door

I would have preferred that the fire was stopped before it reached my house. I'm sure the firefighting caused water damage to the second house- what was gained by letting a fire spread? The fee-paying neighbor suffered damage because the firefighters refused to fight the neighbor's fire.

Details, indeed

[WeekendWarrior]

43. You fail to understand --

This isn't ABOUT your details. It's about HELPING SOMEONE. I don't care what this guy did or didn't do. You don't pull your trucks up to his house and stand there and watch it burn.

There is NOTHING YOU CAN SAY that will excuse that. And anyone who supports it is NOT a Democrat.

[Little Star]

54. And you sir/madam are not gawd. Just because you say so

doesn't make it true.

People have been trying to help you see and you refuse and instead get all judgmental.

You are no more compassionate than the rest of us.

This man made his bed and must now sleep in it. He didn't pay on purpose.
Now hopefully karma helps him and other Rand paul types see the light.

[WeekendWarrior]

62. And apparently you ARE god?

Your "compassion" is noted.

[BzaDem]

82. It is not true JUST because he says so, but it IS true in reality.

"People have been trying to help you see"

Why would I want to "see" something that isn't true? How would that be defined as "help?" Wouldn't pointing out the sheer folly of these people's arguments (like yours) be a GOOD thing?

[slackmaster]

33. That should be in the platform

:hi:

[gulliver]

34. Whose house do you save if there are more than one?

That is what it really amounts to. The FD in this case only has so many resources. If they put out the fires of the people who didn't pay the fee, then no one would pay the fee. Then, the FD wouldn't be able to respond (or respond as effectively) to the fires of other people, costing those people their homes and possibly their lives or those of their pets.

That guy's trailer burning down will cause others to pay their fee. That will increase the FD resources, and they will save more homes and possibly lives as a result. The "net humaneness" goes up in that case. The second mouse gets the cheese.

The county's decision not to impose a fee on rural residents for universal coverage forced this. I personally think it should be impossible to opt out of necessities like fire protection. But it is a democracy.

[WeekendWarrior]

36. That's a choice that has to be made, but you don't base it on who paid his fee

You figure out which house has the best chance of being saved and you do it. No questions.

I mean, why the hell are we even arguing about this?

[BillStein]

47. and the second house only caught fire

because the first fire went unfought*. It isn't a matter of fighting two fires, it's about preventing a second one.

*if Sarah Dingbat can make up a word, so can I

[uncle ray]

49. the second house caught fire because the idiot started the fire.

good thing they had the forethought to pay the fee for service, considering what an asshole they live next to.

[TexasObserver]

39. Yes. It's one of the things that distinguishes us from the GOP.

[WeekendWarrior]

41. I'll go on the record here and say

I don't give a FUCK about taxes. I make very good money and I will be happy to add 50% of my income to the kitty if it will mean that people don't go hungry or see their houses burn down.

When did this become a fucking tax issue? I mean, REALLY, people.

Do you sense that I'm a little angry here?

This is about HUMANITY. Fuck your fucking taxes and who paid what to whom so they could have the privilege to live. I think EVERYONE has that privilege whether they pay their fees or not.

[uncle ray]

50. your anger is directed at the wrong parties.

[WeekendWarrior]

63. That's not the way it looks around here lately. nt

[BillStein]

44. what am I missing here?

It seems like it's just common sense- if we fight a fire we protect the adjacent houses, or woods, or fields- whatever. Fighting the first fire wasn't only a humanitarian issue, it's for everyone's safety

[Little Star]

46. You are absolutely right about our principles.

But this is what Libertarians and Republicans vote for in red areas. They are the ones who need to re-access their own thinking or more of this crap will happen in these Red areas. The Ron Paul voter types will just vote out anyone who tries to make them pay taxes for any kind of socialized services. What can we do other than let them suffer the consequences of their own ignorance?

Sometimes the only way they can learn a lesson, is by suffering the consequences of the choices they make when voting.

We have tried to warn them but they refuse to listen to common sense.

Sad as it is about this house burning down, maybe now they will see reason and pay friggin taxes for basic services.

[WeekendWarrior]

64. So why don't we run over a few dogs in the street to

prove that we really need funding for animal shelters.

You're making no sense.

[TorchTheWitch]

83. why are you supporting this Libertarian policy then?

Because that's exactly what you're doing and doing it with the same Libertarian attitude of "fuck him, he made his bed and now must sleep in it". THAT is what is at issue here. That you and so many other DUer's are SUPPORTING this Libertarian system this county chose and supporting the outcome of such an inhumane and dangerous system and doing it with the same Libertarian "fuck him, he made his bed" attitude.

Whether or not to provide firefighting service and letting a house burn whose homeowner didn't pay the flat subscription fee is not something that should ever come to a vote in the first place. It is is foul and inhumane and dangerous 19th century Libertarian policy that shouldn't ever be subject to a vote.

Firefighting service like police service and road/waterline/gasline maintenance, etc. are VITAL to any community because they effect more people and more properties than those who can't or are unwilling to pay these Libertarian flat fees for service.

Firefighting service must be paid for through TAXES, not subscription fees, and just like other communities who pay for firefighting service this way and are delinquent in paying their taxes STILL have their houses put out if they catch on fire.

[bvar22]

51. No, man. You're thinking of the old FDR "Democratic Party".

THAT Party no longer exists.
It was replaced by the "New Democrat" Party.
They are NOT the same.

[disillusioned73]

92. Amen,

I thought I had found a place(DU) of compasionate liberals/progressives - apparently not..... sad

[Gaedel]

107. The compassionate people.........

Watch how all of the folks shouting about "Democratic compassion" start dancing in the streets on DU when Dick Cheney finally dies. There won't be a word about compassion to his family.

[Recursion]

111. Yeah, yeah...

It's bad enough to have conservatives constantly yammering about a mythologized past; we don't need liberals doing it too. FDR and his policies were racist and sexist and much more "corporatist" than most DUers seem to think, and it's time to stop making obsequies to his corpse the way the GOP does with Reagan.

[bvar22]

120. Her you go:

"In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed".---FDR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights

Here is where FDR opened the door for Civil Rights and Equal Protections ..."for all—regardless of station, race, or creed", and established those ideals as Official Democratic Party Policy.


I have previously challenged you on DU to provide a quote that pre-dates FDR's that establishes "Civil Rights and Equal Protections ..."for all—regardless of station, race, or creed" as official Democratic Party Policy.

You have FAILED to provide that, but continue to spam DU with your right wing blather.
Put UP, or Shut Up.

[Recursion]

121. Your previous and current challenges are pointless

I have previously challenged you on DU to provide a quote that pre-dates FDR's that establishes "Civil Rights and Equal Protections ..."for all—regardless of station, race, or creed" as official Democratic Party Policy.

There is none. Who fucking cares? He can say "for all--regardless of race station or creed" all he wants; he didn't do it or even try to. FDR's policies were crippled by racism from day one.

[bvar22]

122. Who cares?

I care,
and so does everyone who notices that
YOU have FAILED to support your claims.

"We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world."--FDR

[Recursion]

124. *You* have failed to support your claims

Putting a sentence in a platform doesn't mean anything if the effect of your actual policies is the opposite. Ask anybody with a woodchuck avatar.

[OnyxCollie]

52. The NEW Democratic Party has shed all of those

connotations.

They've even got a new logo to boot. Circle "D", whatever the fuck that means.

Unthink. It's doubleplusgood.

[KittyWampus]

55. You understand some counties, towns and states are Republican/Libertarian strongholds and vote

accordingly, don't you?

Some communities/people CHOOSE not to fund municipal services through taxes.

[WeekendWarrior]

66. OF COURSE, I understand that.

What I DON'T understand are those of you who dispassionately say, "he made his own bed, let him lie in it."

It sickens me.

[frustrated_lefty]

61. Utter nonsense.

One of the planks in the democratic platform is the belief that certain services should be provided to all of our citizens, and, consequently, tax dollars be collected and devoted to providing those services. Eliminate any step in that process and it doesn't work.

At the end of the day, happy platitudes and rainbow wishes may feel morally right, but they're not particularly effective at getting things done.

This entire incident seems like perfect campaign material. Here is a crystal clear image that the average joe can grasp which depicts the consequences of privatization and unfunded social services.

[WeekendWarrior]

68. I certainly hope you don't ever need any help

unless you've paid for it, of course.

[RainDog]

70. exactly.

this whole incident is about the STUPIDITY of allowing residents of a county to refuse to fund fire dept. services.

I've read these threads and it seems that one group is saying... see, this is why people cannot be allowed to vote against basic services that are there for all taxpayers b/c this is the result.

the other side is saying... how horrific for you to point out that a refusal to pay taxes to fund basic services means those basic services are denied.

Maybe there are people who are experiencing schadenfreude because of the logical outcome of people who vote against public services and then act as tho they should have them - but that does not mean people WANT others houses to burn down.

It means this is a moment that demonstrates the value of the common good. It's too bad the people in that county couldn't decide to vote in such a way that people's homes would not burn down b/c of their own refusal to fund a fire dept. They probably listen to too much right wing talk radio.

Maybe this is a moment for all to learn that you don't act like a stupid jerk and refuse to fund basic services where you live - b/c there are more bad outcomes than good from such a view.

[PVnRT]

76. Thank you for grasping the larger point here

I wonder what would have happened if a taxpayer's home in Fulton County, Kentucky had caught fire at the same time.

I also love the people saying "Just fight the fire and bill him later." This ignores the fact that some 25% (or more) of people who had been billed never paid (and for some reason the fire department never sicked a collection agency on them). Had that happened, the same people would be howling about how evil it is to bill someone to stop their house from burning down.

[RainDog]

78. If someone does not have the means to pay for services

this is why taxes are assessed based upon means.

I can understand the "fight the fire and bill him later" view. I would hope the fire dept. would do this - and that, if the man couldn't pay, his neighbors would chip in.

But the reality is that people voted to allow this to be the way their county is governed.

[Recursion]

97. They had been doing that for a long time

The fire department had been fighting fires and billing the county residents. The residents then wouldn't pay, and the city couldn't come after them because they weren't city residents.

This is what had to happen, unfortunately.

[Kingofalldems]

71. Agreed--Although I saw multiple posts from

someone claiming to be a Democrat who supported the non action. Must be a repub posing as one of us.

[ET Awful]

77. Anyone who thinks it's okay to let someone's house burn down because

they didn't pay a fee or tax to a neighboring Fire Department needs to explain something to me. . .

Using that mindset, is it your position that fire departments from neighboring states and counties that travel long distances to fight wildfires and/or brush fires in unincorporated areas should just stay home? After all, the residents of those areas didn't pay taxes or fees to the county these firefighters came from right?

I mean . . . if a firefighter from Sacramento travels down to Los Angeles to fight fires in Malibu Canyon and the vicinity, your stated standard is that they shouldn't do anything, since those people that live there didn't pay fees and taxes to Sacramento right?

[disillusioned73]

93. It's not suprising that all you heard were crickets since yesterday.

I think the Libertarian slips are showing on some around these parts....

[cbdo2007]

79. True....except

that we also need to encourage people to learn to take care of themselves and their responsibilities or else more and more people will learn that they can get something for nothing and we'll have a serious shortage of people willing to help out.

That's the fine line here. It isn't as simple as whether or not they should have put out the house for or whether or not they should charge $75 for their services. The fact is that they DO charge $75 for their services and that if no one gives them money then they will go out of business and not be able to help anyone.

[donheld]

80. But in a "Christian" country we just let it burn

isn't that what Jesus would have done?

[HuckleB]

84. 71...

[rhett o rick]

85. That's apparently not the philosophy of the New-Democrats. nm

[Occulus]

88. This n/t

[Lucian]

89. Agreed.

K&R

[disillusioned73]

94. K&R

:dem:

[Recursion]

95. Another philosophy of the Democratic Party is that we pay for the government

Sometimes, as in the case of the fire, those two contradict each other.

[aikoaiko]

96. It is the philosophy of DU that members don't tell groups of DUers that they are not true Democrats

:nuke: the thread.

[WeekendWarrior]

127. Unless those "DUers" are really tea baggers. nt

[aikoaiko]

128. Actually, not so.

[depakid]

98. As you can see from the many replies- that's not the case

Democrats can be and often are every bit as morally twisted as Republicans when issues like this come up.

Something of a rude awakening for some, I'm sure.

[Recursion]

100. It's "morally twisted" to pay for government? NT

[depakid]

101. It's morally twisted to stand there and let the guy's house burn down

Some of the posts here are on the same plane as Glen Beck.

Some surprises though among a few with whom I often disagree.

That was an eye opener, for sure.

[Recursion]

102. No. The guy whose house burned down is the Beck-head

If some of us show some joy at the libertarians getting what they asked for, who can blame us?

[depakid]

104. That's primitive moral reasoning at best

[Recursion]

105. Would you buy a heroin addict another fix?

That's what we're doing when we continue to let anti-government people get services without paying for them.

[depakid]

106. That's also primitive- although somewhat less so, since there appears to be a principle behind it

other than punishment or spite.

At least you've gone from pre-convention to conventional (Kholberg's Stage 3).

[Recursion]

108. I'm a Hegelian who has little time for Kohlberg

And his insistence on moral "stages" A) having a fixed and universal sequence and B) reflecting a moral "progression" in any real sense is silly.

[depakid]

116. Not all that different than Piaget's stage theory

though less age dependent.

Some people never reach post conventional moral reasoning (that social contract thingy)- just as some never develop formal operations to the extent they can work effectively with abstract thought, concepts and ideas.

We can see examples of both of these right here on DU!

btw: this situation is a pretty effective "dilemma" in drawing this stuff out, don't you think?

[Recursion]

117. I'm seeing it more as a knee-jerk test

People who actually read the article and realize that this is teabaggers getting exactly what they want and work for, vs. people who just see "private fire department" (which it isn't) and freak out.

[depakid]

119. There's some of that

but the more interesting (and quite frankly disturbing) posts involve elements of moral reasoning or "deserve/don't deserve" type thinking that aren't nearly so prolific in other western nations.

[aikoaiko]

103. In the end, saving the house would have supported the pay for services approach to social goods.

In the long run.

[Recursion]

109. You mean the "not-pay-for-services" approach

If this guy had been taking advantage of the fee-for-service firefighting opportunity he was given, they would have put the fire out.

Fee-for-service is a stupid way to do firefighting (cf. Crassus), but it's at least plausible, unlike this county's idea of apparently simply not paying for anything, ever.

[aikoaiko]

129. I probably called it choose to pay for service approach.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WeekendWarrior]

126. Amazing, isn't it?

True colors and all that.

[Romulox]

123. But we DO let our banker buddies foreclose on you. No problem!

:hi: