Competing world views... this is what this is about folks

[nadinbrzezinski]

and the libertarians are winning.

So we have had this 'xplained to us on how these libertarian assholes think. Yes they do think that way. They do think that they are tricking them damn fucking lib'ruls into covering them for services they don't pay.

Well folks this country will have to decide. Do we keep doing this, and not letting these libertarian get their full rewards of their Randian Galt like paradise? Or do we?

Reality is we don't want to. We believe that TAXES should cover all, and that certain services are essential. But these folks refuse to pay for those services as we are told repeatedly by folks here who think some of don't know these people. We do, so let's go for the RADICAL solution... they don't have a COUNTY FD, since they don't want to pay for one? NO fire service for you. You don't have a police (or in lieu Sherrie) since you do not want to pay for it... no cops for you. You do not want to pay for schools... no schools for you. You don't want to pay for the ambulance service, no ambulance for you. You don't want to pay for the lights... well no lights for you.

It is radical, but these folks don't want to pay for these services yet demand them.

I've been told this is too radical. Well it is... and it is not conducive to a functioning society. Reality is, we are well on our way NOT to be a functioning society... they are winning. So we might have to do this in order to stop this instanity before we cannot really afford to run a Fire Department, a police force, street lights and city utilities.

Will people die? Absolutely. Will fur babies (which seems to get people round these parts really up in arms) yep... will kids miss on education... you betcha... will cars break down on run down streets? Absolutely... but this is the heaven many of these folks want to live in. Why should we continue to stop them? That is the competing vision and lord knows it is not one I like... since this is what it looks like in the end...







But hey, this is what some of these folks really want. And perhaps those who reside around those idiots have a point.

By the way the fire is symbolic of all that is wrong in this country... and about THAT vision.

Me... increasingly I feel I am no longer in the United States... and have gone down a very deep rabbit hole... perhaps if I get them red slippers. That said the Great Depression was partly about those policies and you are on your own mentality... we got something else after people got that lesson. Seem people have forgotten that lesson.... oh well.

[LiberalLoner]

1. I agree with you 100%. This is our only way of fighting back. These stupid evil effers will

not SEE until enough of them have their homes burned down. Or have a crime happen to them with no police to help. Or need medical care and can't get it.

This is war. War is ugly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. No it is not war, it is a competing vision

but it is easy to scream about bootstraps when you got all these socialist things allowing you to scream bootstraps.

It goes back to the 15th century and the enclosure acts when common lands were taken away. Why these people don't trust any thing in common. But this is the vision...

And we may have to let them have it.

That means WHOLE counties, or municipalities will have to be OUT of city or county services the residents refuse to pay for... period

[LiberalLoner]

6. Why do so few people see the end results of the system they claim to want? I

had the same question when I saw so many people refinancing their homes and using them as ATM's. I thought, don't they see that they will have to repay that money someday or risk losing their homes?

I don't understand why so many people are unable or unwilling to see two steps ahead - to see what the logical end result of their actions will be.

Am I just weird in that I usually try to do that? I know I am a worry wart - I try to anticipate everything that could possibly go wrong and develop a plan of action. Maybe others are not worriers like I am so they don't learn to think ahead a step or two? I am very confused.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Most humans really cannot think ahead

But this is also about our historical DNA. Reading on XVI century England... I am starting to think that the War of the Roses never ended, let alone the civil war.

Yep, some of the things described sound damn familiar... including the dominance of religion for the people.

Using houses like ATMs... ask people, they are sure that God will provide.

Leave the bad understanding of what religion is... but that goes back a long time.

[DonCoquixote]

2. Answer this

You know of course, that there are plenty of us in the Red States that are liberal, indeed, we take more hits for being liberal than anyone in Seattle or New York does. Yet, despite the fact we do vote for civilized measures, we rarely get them, because GOP and BLUE DOGS win...do you laugh as our houses burn?

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. No I don't. IN fact as a former emergency worker

I even hate the idea of even thinking this is the way. But people have JUSTIFIED this fire on these grounds. I just took it to the logical extreme.

It is reductio ad absurdum... and sadly my local Galt fans (they mostly live in the East County where they scream and moan and piss about them heavy taxes in the fire district, it is NOT optional) would love to see the vision I just posted. All and until the next fire starts.

Why I also said I barely recognize this country anymore.

[Lance_Boyle]

5. Living in a red state does not automatically make you retarded.

The guy in TN had the option to pay up and subscribe to fire service. He didn't. Gambled and lost. I don't laugh at him, but I also don't weep for his stupid moron ass.

[DonCoquixote]

7. Fire

like hunger, like weather, does not care who paid what, it spreads...

And, as someone from red State america, the governments are set so that the pain is not felt by the people who made the vote, but us dark skinned types.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. It shouldn't be optional

but since it is... and residents of Obion County REFUSE to fund a fire district and a FD... the city of Fulton should just cancel mutual aid and stop responding...

The problem is that it is even optional.

We are closer to heaven (Somalia) than I even imagined last week.

[txaslftist]

31. secretly? Yeah, probably.

Us red-staters are automatically scorn-worthy.

[MadHound]

10. Yep, I'm finding myself increasingly depressed about where this country is headed

People are divided along increasingly ideological boundaries, and that which makes us human, our caring, our compassion, is increasingly being sacrificed on the altar of ideological purity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Situations like this make me want to get off

to be honest.

[struggle4progress]

12. I'll do my best, wherever I live, to make sure taxes cover basic services

I can't think of a greater disaster for our country than the prospect that only the children of the rich will go to school, only the wealthy will have medical care, and only the affluent will have fire and police protection

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. But this is the kind of paradise some folks really want

And according to a few folks we should not stop them. Well this is the logical end for that vision.

For the record I am a subscriber to that OTHER vision...

[nashville_brook]

14. this is spot on. really nailed it, nadin!

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Thanks, I fear it is the rise of the pod people

[SoCalDem]

16. A quick look at TV shows a lot..

"Modern" shows that are "successful" have a gladiator-esque twist to them...

they are almost all competitions ...competitions where unseen/unknown people use their phone-devices to "vote people off the stage".

some are competitions where a modicum of "talent" is required
but even that talent is judged not only by unseen people who supposedly decide, but on-air "talent" whose main job is to belittle & embarrass the contestants, while egging on the crowd, who cheerily chimes in with boos & embarrassed laughter.

some are competitions that go back to the "Queen for a Day" shows where the saddest most pathetic sob story "wins the stuff/free house/makeover/etc.


Some shows are contests withing contests, where people deliberately sabotage others and then expect cooperation at other times.

There are shows that revel in dirty work, dangerous jobs, weird foods and survivalist techniques. These are obviously being filmed by people who are probably well-taken care of during the shoot, but the protagonists,as they careen from one death-defying circumstance to the next. are the object of the voyeuristic audience

These shows have one thing in common.. There is a singular "winner/loser" and they all have "done it alone"...defied the odds, lived dangerously, reaped the rewards of their own fast thinking & mastery of the elements/nature/the other contestants.

The idea seems to be that "a person" can do it alone if they are good enough, fast enough, clever enough, can hit all the right notes or steps and can make a challenging undertaking watch-able and enjoyable to the masses who will give a :thumbsup: or :thumbsdown: on their performance.

[leftstreet]

17. Thanks for that

Interesting analysis!

I haven't watched much teevee since the days of WKRP and such. (lol I'm old) Can't think of the names of some of the programs now, but they tended to feature working class families and singles, dealing with working class issues.

Very different now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Those shows also took MORE money to produce

reality shows (except a few of the Survival variety, such as Bear Grylls) don't take that much money to produce. They are cheap, and they get an audience.

Yes, I like a few of them, that oddly enough are NOT cheap to produce... Mythbusters comes to mind.

But if you really want to see the formula... last year they had who's the next food network star, followed by a shooting show in the History channel. Ok, so one group was using spatulas, the other guns... peel the layers... it was the same show.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Yep, you got it

this is what we are becoming.

Can I get off this ride?

[Hannah Bell]

37. yes, it's pretty blatant what media owners are promoting.

"competition" & the war of all against all.

the ideal world for capitalists is where isolated individuals face globocorps & massed capital all by their lonesome, without stong families, strong communities, or strong labor/interest groups who have their back.

[cbdo2007]

18. Your world view is way off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. No it is not my world view

read the whole post.

Have you ever heard of Pushing something to the point of absurdity?

But this is what the let it burn since he did not pay 75 bucks logically, when pushed to it's logical end, leads to.

[cbdo2007]

22. Not really....

It leads to "Survival of the fittest". Those who want to survive will pay for protection and those who are too lazy or too stupid will die off. That's really the issue here, American's are too lazy to write a check to pay for something or they need to finish watch Wheel Of Fortune so they forget to mail the check in. Look at our Credit Card companies - their entire corporate structure is based on American's being too lazy and stupid to pay for stuff all at once, so they charge them 30% more for the same item, even punishing them when they send in their payment late. It's the perfect system and could only work in America. THAT'S the world view on display in the real world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. And what do you think that survival of the fittest is?

Libertarian paradise.

By the way, that IS a classic RIGHT WING talking point going back to the 19th century. It was used by Robber Barons too. You know outstanding citizens like oh Morgan and Carnegie.

[AuntPatsy]

23. Some people are not only too stupid to realize they are fighting against their own best interests

but so rapped up in hate delivered and ingrained into their obvious racist brains that they lost the ability for reason and common sense to show itself, sometimes it is up to those that still posses such to help those that cannot see to see....you know what is going on nadine, so do I, but far too many are clueless in the reality that we the people, all of us..the majority of us, regardless of race and or station etc have been thrown into a pit like the lion pits of old to battle it out til death is the only outcome.......our country today definitely resembles the ancient city of rome more and more...


The only thing that will help our country back to it's original intent is to ensure those that have reaped the spoils of this countries takeover are made to give it back to those they so effectively stoled it all from..and the only way that will ever happen is if we the majority of this nation regardless of our differences in all aspects come together and demand it back....if not...your scenario in those pictures will become our own future...

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. I fear that is the future

when we have folks even here, defending this and not realizing it...it is when I go... WOW!

[AuntPatsy]

26. I hope your fears are not valid though I have the same fears...

talking to people outside of the net is not exactly promising...we have been forced to confront each other instead of the real enemy and if people do not realize the truth of who the real enemy is and soon then your fears will surely be our future...

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. We are at a crossroads, no doubt in my mind

we have been on the edge for a while... but it will resolve itself...

and how it does... the end of Empire will be interesting. This is why Huffington has talked about this country becoming a third world nation. I agree with her... collective attitudes are closer to that than many people actually realize.

[AuntPatsy]

28. I noticed with Katrina...I was so shocked at what occurred on american soil...I told many

that they themselves would likely change their minds if such had happened to them...they denied ever needing government help as so many do on that side...but I had no doubt then nor do I now that unless they themselves feel the heat so to speak they will continue lacking the needed empathy for which the democratic party once valued highly in order to ensure all are treated as equaly as humanly possible...

Good night..hope you have dreams that prove to be positive..I have nightmares for months now but still remain slightly optimistic as much as I possibly can.

[txaslftist]

32. LOL.

What spoils? The USA is not only broke, we are in debt up to our eyeballs. We have outsourced almost all of our productive capacity to those same folks we've "stole" it from.

We can't pay it back, even if we wanted to.

[LiberalAndProud]

29. Nadin, it is my hope that the we will not experience the worst before we pull back from the brink.

But we will not pull back in time to avoid every unhappy repercussion. This fire is a harbinger of things to come if Palinites, Millerites and Boehnerites get their chance at the helm. It is indeed, as the first subject line professed "Libertarian Utopia".

Ugly, isn't it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Yes it is

makes me want to stock up on BLS supplies

We WILL be on our own.

[txaslftist]

33. Since we are heading into a "Greater Depression", nadine,

how do you suppose we are going to pay for this vision of yours?

At least the libertarians want to cut back on defense spending and foreign wars. We are so far in debt as a nation that we cannot ever pay it back. That's our national legacy, the US falling into second world status.

As for "competing visions" the Libertarians are on the outs with both the Pubbies and the Dems, so that isn't who we are really competing with anyway. We are competing with fascists, and the fascists are winning.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. What economists are you reading since WE ARE NOT

going into a depression.

By the way this is not my vision of America, but it is the vision of a few, more than a few libertarians. THey can afford to have it since we do gooders come and rescue them, so I am told. So if this is the case, and you really want to stop this virus... counties that refuse to fund their own FD through taxes, or any other service, should not get it.

Is this that difficult? They do not realize where their political philosophy leads to.

And no the US is not falling into second rate status... but rather THIRD WORLD status...

[txaslftist]

38. You think libertarianism has something to do with that housefire?

That was a collection of government employees who let it burn down. Libertarians believe fire departments should be private enterprises, and I bet when that homeowner offered to pay to put the fire out, a private fire company would have said yes. Those government firefighters said NO.

And if you don't think we are flying headlong into the worst depression this nation has ever seen, you are reading the WRONG economists. We have a national debt we can barely afford to service, much less pay off, we have a manufacturing base in India and China, the gap between the wealthy and the poor is the greatest it's ever been and the dollar is about to tank. How do you suppose this economy is going to turn around? House construction? We have the highest annual surplus of homes on the market we've ever had. The real rate of unemployment is around 20%.

There is no real recovery coming because there is no "there" there. There's nothing to recover with except a lot of debt.

We can no longer afford a socialist society, and we can no longer afford a fascist society, which is what we have. We are flat-ass broke.

[haele]

34. I think many people don't want to pay for "common good" is because they don't want to believe

it could happen to them. That fire, flood, a factory leaving, the loss of a critical bridge, a serious accident - those happen to other people. The ones you can look down on, for not being prepared, or not taking care of themselves, because, of course, you've done everything right yourself, so you're being looked after in the greater scheme of things...

It's the lizard brain - if you think about it, it might happen. How many people here have actually dealt with a fire? I've tried to stay out of the recent fire threads themselves, because I have dealt personally with several serious fires - a barracks fire, where I lost 4 years of my life through a careless roommate, and the San Diego Normal Heights fire of 1985, where there was seriously stressed fire response and many people were stuck trying to save their homes on their own.
That fire was originally a canyon brush fire that turned into a treetop crown fire, set by kids playing with fireworks about two, almost two and a half miles and about in a canyon from the complex I lived at - in other words, we were 12 regular city blocks(8 of them urban residential, 4 commercial), two major (4/5 lane)streets and 300 ft. of canyon away from the epicenter of the fire.

The apartment complex ended up being 5 blocks from the final containment area, and our tar roof was blackened and slightly charred, even though the five of us - the complex manager and anyone at home in the early afternoon - were taking shifts going up and spraying water with the garden hose to keep the roof, the neighbor's roofs, and any nearby landscaping wet and from catching in the dry brown smoke and burning embers that were falling for hours.

In four hours, it had burned over 115 houses in a 24 block area. Even though the ground and brush fire itself was pretty much contained within an hour or so, the fire jumped up into some dry trees (this was the end of a dry June), throwing huge burning embers a couple hundred feet in the air, allowing the wind to throw burning twigs, bark and palm branches a quarter of a block or more, catching the roofs and landscaping of houses hundreds of feet away from the burning tree. Not much the fire department could do but try to fight the fire house to house, street by street, because the fire high in the trees really couldn't be fought without the few county air tankers that were having air traffic clearance problems working in the middle of a major city. As for the thought of evacuation - we wanted to save our apartment. We had no where else to go.

If the 24 unit complex had caught fire; if the fire had started in the canyons a mile closer, if we hadn't managed to keep the roof and surrounding trees wet, if the tankers hadn't managed to douse the streets and trees five blocks up from us; we would have lost pretty much everything. City fire resources were completely tied up with the big fire, so it would be left to us at the apartment to to try to hunt down things of value, critical medicines, pets, and evacuate the seven apartments that had small children and elderly - while still trying to slow the fire in the complex so we could actually try to do the evacuation and salvage activity. All while in the firestorm around us.

If a fire like that happened now in our city, with the Fire Station "Brown out" situation the city is in - because most of those in the position to be leaders in the community like to play at governance, privatize the profits and socialize the risks - it would end up worse.

Fire and Emergency Disaster response - It's not an issue of "pay to play", like car insurance or buying a house - it's an issue of the common good. And for some reason, we are becoming a society that would rather view everything as an individual game to be played. You are born, you play the game, you die - in the meantime, you are valued and value by the amount of money you're worth, how competitive you are able to be, what group you belong to, how many toys you have, how much you can get.


The Commons are broken. It's been turning into the "Me, myself and I" show for the past 35/40 years. And unfortunately, history shows us "wake-up calls" like preventable disasters, losing essential services and huge gaps between the rich and poor don't work to educate a population. People as a group under stress tend to default to passive - even well meaning and educated people - and will generally only consider the short term easiest way out of a problem; usually the equivalent of standing around, waiting for someone to stand up and to show them what to do. Even if they know it's the worst possible thing, very few people will take action - they are afraid of being the nail that will stand out there alone to be hammered.
It takes leadership, and so long as leadership of the Commons is loudly and constantly sneered at as being weak, impracticable, and unprofitable - for "losers", we will just keep spiraling downward.

What went on this weekend in in Obion County was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. On all fronts, the County Commissioners for allowing a critical service to be viewed as "an insurance policy" instead of a Common service, the foolish property owner for not subscribing, the City Fire Department for not taking his money to fight the fire when the neighbor and property owner both begged them to come out because apparently an unsupervised young man decided unwisely to burn trash in the back yard.

It is still inexcusable, because honestly, without leadership, this won't serve as any sort of long turn wake-up call or "example" to a bunch of freeloaders, it will just keep happening. And people will die.

I don't know how we can change. We've become a country of "Winners" and "Losers". The "Winners" have no interest in anything outside their game, and they're spreading their poison onto others the more things get trashed. It doesn't matter how many of their own gets sacrificed, or what's left afterwards, they have set up sides to keep winning their game.

Haele

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. It goes beyond it could not happen to us

(And for the record brown outs are gonna byte us in the ass, oh wait they already have)

It goes back to the home country and the period between the 14 and the 18 century, when common lands were made into enclosed spaces, and rural people who had access to the commons were thrown off the land by the Lords.

No, you could not get the people to actually understand this, or explain it to you in this way. But that was very traumatic to the border Marches... where do you think a lot of these borderers settled when they came to the New World? You guessed it.

So they rail against Communism and Socialism, but I am betting it is also a passed down the generations fear of having the commons taken away once away. So you just don't get them to begin with.

One of those revealing things from history. Americans believe we are like unique and shit, but we have been deeply marked by events such as that. Many of those who were forced to come to the new world as either convicts or indentures, did so because of that.

[OneGrassRoot]

39. Awesome post. Thank you!

:hi:

[surrealAmerican]

40. except, of course, we can't let them just ...

... try out their ideology to see how poorly it works. When the rural "libertarians" are left to themselves, while the city "socialists" take care of one another, the countryside becomes a breeding ground for terrorists.

It is not in our best interests to let them suffer from their own stupidity.