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lightningandsnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 09:58 PM
Original message
What are your thoughts on turnitin.com?
I'm a second year university student, although I transferred from another school. At my current school, we are usually required to submit assignments on turnitin.com, unless we request to opt out by a certain date and make alternate arrangements.

For those of you who don't know, turnitin.com is a website that electronically checks your work for plagiarized content against books, journals, and a database of student papers. However, whenever you submit an assignment to turnitin.com, your work is forever indexed in their database. There is no way to opt out of this if you submit your paper through this website.

I'm thinking of opting out for the following reasons:

1. Presumption of guilt. Quite frankly, I'm insulted that professors are so distrustful of us that they have to check every phrase with a fine-tooth comb for plagiarism. I've heard from teachers that most instances of plagiarism are quite obvious, so I don't see the need for this website.

2. Being forced to store my writing on their website. If I want to put my writing online, I will. I do not want my writing stored in their database permanently.

3. Turnitin is for profit. Therefore, this company is indirectly making money off the writings of students, who are not being compensated.

What are your thoughts on this?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think it's complete horseshit.
I assume that turnitin.com promises exactly nothing, takes responsibility for nothing, it's just a cheap hack. Professors ought to know better, but butt-covering rules over common sense.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. I've never heard of it before, but being forced to store your writing seems a bit much.
I have no idea what decision I would make, if I were in your shoes, however.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. about the presumption of guilt -
the presumption is not that you as an individual will cheat, but that odds are someone in the class will.

Unfortunately that's been my experience. When I was working on my masters in education I had (stupid) team projects to work on. This was with people about to get certified as teachers. I started running our own group papers through turn it in, and twice people in my own group plagiarized sections of papers my name was going on. I guess even the future teachers didn't have enough integrity to give a shit about potentially screwing me over and getting me kicked out of a program.

When I went to get fingerprinted for my certification, in the lobby of the police station two cops were laughing about plagiarizing papers for a college class they were taking.

When my husband recently was evaluating proposals for bids for an army contract, he saw that one of the contractors had the nerve to plagiarize a technical paper my husband cowrote!

My experience: cheating is completely out of control, beyond what you could imagine. A teacher would have to be a fool to presume that everyone in their classroom valued integrity.
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JackDragna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm a teacher and it's a valuable tool.
Edited on Thu Oct-07-10 10:13 PM by JackDragna
Plagiarism is a huge problem, especially with the coming of the Internet age. It keeps the students honest. Not all instances of it are obvious, either: some students are good at parsing other people's words. It's not a cut-and-dried situation of cheat, no cheat with the output: when a student submits a paper, it notifies me of a certain level of similarity between the student paper and recorded work. I can then look at it and decide exactly what level of guilt the student possesses. The fact that the site is for-profit is something of a non-issue here: the site isn't being compensated at all by selling student work.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-07-10 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yup.
People should be equally outraged about the plagiarism.

The last time I found someone turning in an entire assignment that they pasted off the internet (no work of their own whatsoever) was yesterday.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Interesting--do you work in an academic environment that has a privacy policy?
Edited on Fri Oct-08-10 10:23 AM by msanthrope
I'm interested because I think the OP brings up an interesting legal issue---does the use of sites such as a turninit violate academic privacy?

Further, what is the reliability of said sites? I mean that statistically, and what would be the liability of a teacher who used said tool to mount an accusation?



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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. Plagiarism is unbelievably rampant. Professors cannot
possibly check all questionable papers themselves. If I were teaching at that level, I'd use this service, and would inform students that plagiarism in my assignments would be grounds for an "F" in the course and that the plagiarism would be reported to the school administration. I consider it to be the very worst form of cheating.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Plagarism should result in an expulsion, if it is intentional.
But I've seen both--intentional, and someone who just forgot to go back and note a cite.


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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Of course. Intentional only.
It's not usually all that hard to tell.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. You are correct, it's not that tough...
having taught high-schoolers, most of what I encountered was accidential and ignorance of proper citation. A few 'bought' papers, which stood out.


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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. We teach kids to regurgitate facts without critical thinking...
... even reward them for it.

So they grow up thinking nothing is wrong with plagiarism. They got the right answer, didn't they?

The standardized mechanized testing and rote teaching to the book of "no child left behind" is killing intellectual curiosity and innovation.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yeah, then all of a sudden it's a crime to repeat things you saw somewhere.
But the real problem, the real thing that make Professors froth at the mouth, is that you can pay people to do your classwork for you, and it's not that expensive, you can buy it on the web, or order it edited to fit. And I suspect that this "turnitin" place is really about that issue.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
8. 1. lol. 2. o.k. 3. meh. nt
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
10. Plagiarism is rampant and you have no "presumption of innocence"
at your work or in an academic setting. Whether we realize it or not, that is confined strictly to the justice system.

Do what you must but I can't blame the school or professors for requesting this.
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
11. I don't have a problem with it.
Keep in mind, the fact that they're storing it isn't really to make money off of your work, but to add it to the database to make sure no one plagiarizes from it. At a lot of schools, you'll see fraternities, sororities, and sports teams with years of past essays and assignments to use for studying, and on occasion, a past essay might get plagiarized. This website helps to prevent that.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
12. I had it for two classes, and have no problem with it
Plagiarism is rampant in college these days, and this is a tool that allows professors to combat that problem. It isn't a presumption of guilt, no more than the measures that were used to combat plagiarism pre computer day.

Yeah, they store your writing on site. What the hell do you you think they're going to do with it? Publish it? Oh, and this post you just wrote, whatever writing you put on Facebook, whatever you write in emails or on the web, it is being stored in various other databases, without your knowledge or consent. Welcome to our brave new world.

There are lots of for profit groups that are making money off of students. Bookstores, food service, etc. etc. Your point?

About the only thing I had against Turnitin was that it was a pain in the ass to remember to upload my work to it. Trust me, there are many more other, more serious moral qualms you will face in life. Wait until you find out that your particular school is invested in BP, Blackwater, Boeing, or other such fun corporations;)
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. Without countermeasures there are some in your class THAT WILL CHEAT.
Edited on Fri Oct-08-10 10:08 AM by Statistical
Their cheating devalues your degree. How do you ask?

They get hired and the company realizes they don't know shit. The prestige of your degree just rubbed off a little. Now one individual can't make a big difference but tens of thousands at hundreds of companies across decades does.

There are some very good services online that will get you a paper on just about anything. The power of computers and databases and more powerful language parsers will only make that more and more and more and more of an issue as time goes on.

Do you want your degree to be considered worthless by hiring managers?

I'll let you know in IT now a BS in computer science is essentially worthless. A masters means something still but a BS is no guarantee of any level (even the most basic) of real world knowledge. I have had people w/ a BS that don't even understand basic data structures or other logical concepts of software design. I am not talking about nitty gritty code level stuff but simple things like:

Describe in pseudocode or with diagrams what a linked list is and how it works (inserts, updated, deletes).
Describe the difference between a stack and a queue.
Describe an advantage and disadvantage of inheritance.

Assume strings are immutable. Describe the issues with the following snipet of pseudo-code. Use psuedo-code to demonstrate an alternative solution

string account_raw = "47384923"
string padded

for(i=len(account_raw), 10, i++)
padded = "0" + padded

padded = padded + account_raw




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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
14. I think you have legal recourse....
Edited on Fri Oct-08-10 10:24 AM by msanthrope
Look, I am a lawyer, but I will not give you legal advice over the Internet.

You should consult with Legal Aid, or call your local ACLU...

here's what i find interesting...

Schools have a duty to keep your academic records private.

So, I doubt that a professor can submit your paper to the Internets, because it might be a violation of your academic privacy. (In fact, I bet your professors KNOW they can't submit the work online.)

But, if your professor compels you submit over the Internets, then they are attempting to skirt the law, and policy IMHO.

How far do you want to go with this? Because you could always refuse, citing the privacy policy, and offer to hand in the paper directly. BUT before you do this, you should consult with counsel, since you really should have a legal professional opinion as to your rights and consequences. Take a look at your school's privacy policy, and go see a legal professional, if you want to take this any further.

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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. We don't use turnitin at my school (as far as I know), but my understanding of FERPA is
that personally identifiable info is the key. If a student (or professor) submits papers to turnitin without ID like the students name or SSN or birthdate or some combination I doubt it would be a violation. Also, I notice that the OP mentioned an opt out policy, which would seem to make the turnitin submission technically voluntary...

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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. But doesn't FERPA distinguish between secure university portals and
Edited on Fri Oct-08-10 11:46 AM by msanthrope
libraries and the Internet in general? Does a professor have the authority to effectively publish student papers on the Internet, as long as he takes their names off of it?

Futher, what about copyright? Does the use of the site violate the student's right to later publish? I used several academic papers as the basis for later journal articles. Who owns the material submitted to a for-profit website?

As you noted, the opt-out policy exists. I wonder if it does because the professors know they can't enforce it.
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
18. I would opt out. I am sure the reader can still check for
plagiarism just like always if the writing is suspect.

It just seems overly restrictive and creepy. It turns school work into even more of a factory line image.
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drlindaphd Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
19. Just used it for my dissertation
I just completed my dissertation and it along with most of the papers I wrote for my doctoral program were all run through turnitin. I did not see it as an insinuation of guilt of plagiarism or accusation that I had intentionally copied the work of others. The report that was returned is called an "Originality Report". It is quite picky. The requirement for my dissertation was that I have a score of less than 10%. Some of the phases that it picked up were just common usage like "doctor-patient relationship. I remember it flagged "planes flying into buildings" in one paper I wrote.

I did not take offense at the requirement to turn my work in to turnitin. It was interesting to see some of the flags that came up. Some of them as you can see were so minor and were common usage. Some were other student papers, including my own. I was never accused of plagiarism. There was never any nasty attitude on the part of the school or professors. It was a tool to improve my writing.

I would imagine that if the originality score was very high, or if paragraphs were lifted from other documents, the author might be questioned regarding the effort they had put into the work. I did have one incident when a classmate turned in my work as her own and the professor did not need turnitin to spot the plagiarism. Fortunately, he knew that it was my original work and that she had copied it and took the proper steps.

Plagiarism is a very real problem. As a victim, I can tell you it is very disturbing to have your work stolen. As a user of turnitin, I can tell you, it was not a big deal. There is no accusation of plagiarism. Many times plagiarism is unintentional. Most of the flags were from items that I had never read or even heard of. Unless you are intentionally coping the work of other people, I would not worry about it. As far as turnitin making money from this, everyone is making money from something. We all have to eat, live, and support ourselves. You will have to make money, too. Your compensation is your degree. Just like your professors are making money from your work. It is the same process.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Here's a question--who now has rights to your dissertation?
Not just copyright, but who has access to view your dissertation?

What rights did you give away in using their site?

I might use the site as a self-help tool, but do you think it statistically reliable enough that your teachers should be able to mount an accusation based on your score?
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drlindaphd Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Anyone
Anyone who googles my name has the right to download my dissertation. I do not think that had anything to do with turnitin. When I submitted the copyright for my dissertation with ProQuest I was given the option of collecting royalties every time someone downloaded it or bought a copy or not. Since I did not do this research for profit but as a benefit to people, with the hope that others would expand on it, I chose not to collect royalties.

I do know that people have downloaded it and used it for their work. I have gotten feedback from them and they appreciate my work and find it valuable.

Anyway, as far as I know, you do not give away any rights by using turnitin. Also I do think it is statistically reliable for a plagiarism accusation. It would have to be major, since the penalty is being expelled from the school in most cases.
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drlindaphd Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Hi again
I have been thinking and I think that placing your work on a site like turnitin ought to give you some protection against others plagiarizing your work. If colleges, universities or publishers use the site to check work that is submitted to them, authors who co-opt your work will be caught.

Just a thought. It should work both ways.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. My college thesis was made public.
We had to pay a thesis fee that covered the cost of getting it bound, and it became part of the college library.

About the second part of your question: "do you think it statistically reliable enough that your teachers should be able to mount an accusation based on your score?"

The question makes me think you haven't seen it in action. If the score is low enough, it doesn't trigger a plagiarism review. If it's high, that doesn't mean a teacher mounts an accusation. They go back and look at your paper - and it will have inserted comments or highlighted areas in it, much like a word document that's marked up for review. The personal review is what would trigger either a thumbs up or an accusation. Turnitin doesn't say it's plagiarized, it just notes matches in text strings. For instance if you quote a block of text, it will get marked up as a match from another document, and the teacher could easily see that you put quote marks around it and cited it in the references.
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Count Olaf Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
24. This service could have prevented the Iraq war
Plagiarism: British Intelligence Iraq Dossier Relied on Recycled Academic Articles



Powell, in his presentation to the Security Council on February 5, 2003, sought to reinforce his argument by referring to a recently released British report. He said

“I would call my colleagues' attention to the fine paper that the United Kingdom distributed . . . which describes in exquisite detail Iraqi deception activities.”

Powell was referring to "Iraq Its Infrastructure Of Concealment, Deception And Intimidation", published on January 30, 2003. The Downing Street authors state they drew "upon a number of sources, including intelligence material" (p.1, first sentence). In fact, they copied material from at least three different authors and gave no credit to them. Indeed, they plagiarized, directly cutting and pasting or near quoting.

A close textual analysis suggests that the UK authors had little access to first-hand intelligence sources and instead based their work on academic papers, which they selectively distorted. Some of the papers used were considerably out of date. This leads the reader to wonder about the reliability and veracity of the Downing Street document.

Please read comments by Glen Rangwala, lecturer in politics at Cambridge University who has analyzed the document in revealing detail:

The three primary plagiarism sources:

Ibrahim al-Marashi, "Iraq's Security and Intelligence Network: A Guide and Analysis", Middle East Review of International Affairs, September 2002, http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue3/jv6n3a1.html Rangwala contacted al-Marashi. According to Rangwala, "al-Marashi a postgraduate student at the Monterey Institute of International Studies. He has confirmed to me that his permission was not sought; in fact, he didn't even know about the British document until I mentioned it to him. "

Ken Gause, "Can the Iraqi Security Apparatus save Saddam?", Jane's Intelligence Review, November 2002, pp.8-13.

Sean Boyne, "Inside Iraq's Security Network, Part One," Jane's Intelligence Review, Vol. 9, No. 7 (July 1997), and No. 8 (August 1997)

At least one secondary source of plagiarism is:

Anthony H. Cordesman, "Key Targets in Iraq", February 1998, http://www.csis.org/stratassessment/reports/iraq_targets.pdf

Marashi's typographical errors and anomalous uses of grammar are incorporated into the Downing Street document. For example, on p.13, the British dossier incorporates a misplaced comma:

"Saddam appointed, Sabir 'Abd al-'Aziz al-Duri as head".

Likewise, Marashi's piece also states:

"Saddam appointed, Sabir 'Abd al-'Aziz al-Duri as head"..

The fact that the texts of these three authors are copied directly results in a proliferation of different transliterations (eg different spellings of Ba'th, depending on which author is being copied).

There are two types of changes incorporated into the British document.

Firstly, numbers are increased or are rounded up. So, for example, the section on "Fedayeen Saddam" (pp.15-16) is directly copied from Boyne, almost word for word. The only substantive difference is that Boyne estimates the personnel of the organisation to be 18,000-40,000 (Gause similarly estimates 10-40,000). The British dossier instead writes "30,000 to 40,000". A similar bumping up of figures occurs with the description of the Directorate of Military Intelligence.

The second type of change in the British dossier is that it replaces particular words to make the claim sound stronger. So, for example, most of p.9 on the functions of the Mukhabarat is copied directly from Marashi's article, except that when Marashi writes of its role in:

"monitoring foreign embassies in Iraq" this becomes in the British dossier: "spying on foreign embassies in Iraq". Similarly, on that same page, whilst Marashi writes of the Mukhabarat: "aiding opposition groups in hostile regimes" - the British dossier renders this as: "supporting terrorist organisations in hostile regimes".

Further examples from the section on "Fedayeen Saddam" include how a reference to how, in Boyne's original text, its personnel are

"recruited from regions loyal to Saddam", referring to their original grouping as "some 10,000-15,000 'bullies and country bumpkins.'"

becomes in the British government's text a reference to how its personnel are:

"press ganged from regions known to be loyal to Saddam" ... "some 10,000-15,000 bullies."

A reference to the "country bumpkins" might not have had the rhetorical effect that the British government was aiming for.

Finally, there is one serious substantive mistake in the British text, in that it muddles up Boyne's description of General Security (al-Amn al-Amm), and places it in its section on p.14 of Military Security (al-Amn al-Askari). The result is complete confusion: it starts on p.14 by relating how Military Security was created in 1992 (in a piece copied from Marashi), then goes onto talk about the movement of its headquarters - in 1990 (in a piece copied from Boyne on the activities of General Security). The result is that it gets the description of the Military Security Service wholly wrong, claiming that its head is Taha al-Ahbabi (whilst really he was head of General Security in 1997; Military Security was headed by Thabet Khalil).

Apart from the obvious criticism that the British government has plagiarised texts without acknowledgement, passing them off as the work of its intelligence services, there are two further serious problems. Firstly, it indicates that the UK at least really does not have any independent sources of information on Iraq's internal politics - they just draw upon publicly available data. Thus any further claims to information based on "intelligence data" must be treated with even more scepticism.

Secondly, the information presented as being an accurate statement of the current state of Iraq's security organisations may not be anything of the sort. Marashi - the real and unwitting author of much of the document has as his primary source the documents captured in 1991 for the Iraq Research and Documentation Project. His own focus is the activities of Iraq's intelligence agencies in Kuwait, Aug90-Jan91 - this is the subject of his thesis. As a result, the information presented as relevant to how Iraqi agencies are currently engaged with Unmovic is 12 years old.

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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. When I taught Freshman English while in grad school,
I saw dozens of plagiarized papers. One time I assigned a paper that allowed the student to choose a subject of his or her own. I got one paper that was a word for word copy of a chapter in a text being currently used for an Anthropology class that same semester. The instructor was a friend of mine and I had read the texts for his class before the semester started, since I have an interest in the subject.

Normally, the first occurrence of plagiarism from a student (remember, these were freshmen) got an F for that assignment and a sit-down with me. The student who turned in the anthropology paper outright lied to my face about the plagiarism, so I pulled the book out of my shelf and showed him the chapter, which I had marked and we began comparing the two. Caught, he told me to perform an impossible act on myself. That student didn't get a pass from me or a second chance. He went home to his parents to get a little more parenting.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Wow. I wonder where that republican is now.... n/t
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
30. Being forced to post on turnitin is horseshit.
I think there's a fine line between plagiarism and having an expansive vocabulary. For instance, in high school I fought off three separate accusations of plagiarism that got hurled at me because the teacher didn't like the words I used to describe something. When I asked what was wrong, one of them said "You're only a sophomore. You shouldn't use words this obscure."
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