f*ck Columbus and the boat he sailed

[southmost]

why is his genocide still being celebrated as a national holiday?

[Warren DeMontague]

1. Because he goes good with a nice, steamy tub of buttery

[RC]

2. Columbus Day is brought to you by the same mentality that thinks General Custer is a hero,

instead of a murdering racist.

[melm00se]

3. as with all things

there are good and bad aspects of his voyage.

the bad is that he (unintentionally) brought along small pox and other diseases that decimated the indigenous population (however, according to Charles Mann, the Indians genetic make up was missing a gene that impacted their ability to fight off infections) and don't forget that the Indians gave a return "gift" in the form of syphilis which was a minor skin disease in the New World but a ravaging lethal disease to Europeans.

on the good side, it opened up this continent for exploration and European colonization without which many would probably not be here...it relieved significant population and social pressures growing on the European continent and laid the groundwork for the formation of the United States, Canada and the revolutions in France and England that led to their current democracies.

but let's just focus on the bad...can't possibly have people with any (no matter how slight) positive image.

[Odin2005]

19. When Syphillis came to Europe originally it was MUCH more virulent then now.

[melm00se]

20. it is also possible

that King George III's mental deterioration may have been hastened by syphilis of the brain + arsenic poisoning (a common treatment for syphilis in those days)

[aquart]

4. How righteous. Now you go straight home and call your lawyer.

Deed everything you have to the nearest amerindian tribe, the real owners of this country and leave in peace or perhaps make an arrangement to pay them rent. Unless you are a surviving member of that tribe in which case I say, I know how it feels but get a grip.

There isn't an inch of this earth that isn't drenched in human blood. I've seen the arrow lodged in the Anasazi skull and the Mississippian fortifications. Murder wasn't a European import.

We aren't celebrating genocide. We are celebrating the official beginning of European settlement which is what enabled all of us to be here.

Now if you prefer to celebrate genocide, propose it to Congress, I'm sure they can fit it in somewhere.

[Kolesar]

6. Columbus opted not to baptize the natives because Catholic law forbade the enslavement of Christians

What else was he going to do, NOT enslave them? Get real.

http://www.dickipedia.org/dick.php?title=Christopher_Columbus

[HEyHEY]

77. You are aware natives enslaved each other all the time, right?

[JackRiddler]

86. What a thoroughly irrelevant point...

How is this a justification for celebrating Columbus? -- who if you cared for history you should know did much worse than the natives he encountered would have ever imagined.

Do we have a "Hooray for Indian Slavery Day?" So why is there a Columbus Day?

[HEyHEY]

108. I'm not justifying shit. But saying we "Brought" slavery to them is bullshit

And there's nothing irrelevant about pointing that out when you're judging people in a historical sense. I'm not defending columbus, just saying this happened as well to help add context for good or ill.

[awoke_in_2003]

107. two wrongs make a right? nt

[HEyHEY]

109. Not at all

I'm just pointing out that it wasn't some kind of utopia before Columbus came. I think if we're talking slavery that should be pointed out. I'm not defending columbus or anything, just pointing out something.

[whyverne]

5. Columbus is a great example of how someone can be totally

wrong yet come out a hero. A wonderful example of the vagaries of life. He went against the scientists who agreed that one could sail to China by going west but that it was too dang far for the sailing vessels of the day. They were right.

Of course many of us were raised on the myth that Columbus himself decided the earth was round. Which is total BS.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rucky]

8. I declare today Howard Zinn day!

To celebrate truth in history.

[zinnisking]

33. +1

[proteus_lives]

59. Truth?

If you're going make a holiday for Zinn just call it "exchange one bias for another day."

[zinnisking]

63. Yes, truth. Even if it's offensive to moderate DUers.

How about we call it "the bias of reality day". We could dedicate it to looking at the history of America from the point-of-view of exploited laborers, African Americans, dominated women, slaughtered Native Americans, and victims in general.

If "moderates" want the viewpoint of conquerors, sit in on a public school history class.

[proteus_lives]

64. Judging by your name, I'm not going to get an unbiased response.

How about we call it "the bias of reality day".

That's your opinion.

No book is unbiased. That's why you need to read more then one to grow your own view on history.

Setting up Zinn as the reality is just as bad as some weak-sauce public school class.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

9. We'll be celebrating Dick Cheney Day 25 years from now

That certainly wouldn't surprise me.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipoman]

10. How about putting your money where your

mouth is? As was said above, turn all of your propery and ill-gotten gains back to those loving, non-warring native tribes..



Yea, I didn't think so...all blow, no go..

[JackRiddler]

87. How is this a defense of Columbus Day?

Talk about false dichotomies designed to shut up discomforting thoughts. The only choices you will allow are a) celebrate Columbus or b) kill yourself for living in North America. Anything in between must be hypocrisy, therefore we must a) celebrate Columbus. Logical.

[Perfect Ten]

11. Columbus is just alright with me...

pretty fly for a white guy...

[harun]

12. Guilt.

[oldlib]

13. I believe that the Columbus

discovery of the new world was an accident. Mariners at the time were mostly concerned with rounding the horn of Africa, and to accomplish this they sailed a Southwest course to catch the favorable winds. I suspect that Columbus went to far West and caught the Southwest winds towards the Gulf of Mexico.

[bherrera]

16. Columbus was sailing to the West to find the Orient

This theory you have is not supported. All the documents indicate they were sailing West to find the Orient, the spice islands, the Indies. This is why the place was called West Indies, and the local guys were called "Indians". There was a lot of confusion in the beginning of the conquest.

I notice many of you are disturbed because we Spanish found the New World for Europeans. The Indians died because they were infected by disease, that of course was not really intentional. And the ugly reality is that, if the Aztecs or Mayas had discovered Europe, and had the guns and germs we had, they would have killed and turned into slaves as many Europeans as they could. It is human nature, which is barely tamed today in some places.

After all, aren't you Americans guilty as a people even today, of the horrors inflicted on the Iraqis? And don't you support that ugly regime in Israel, which is known to abuse human rights? What excuse do you have in the 21st century to behave this way, if it is not the same human nature which drives all of us to behave like savages?

[csziggy]

38. +1

[oldlib]

41. I am not disturbed

by the Spanish roots of Columbus. I believe that Columbus deserves his place in history. You probably already know that America is a cruel and extremely violent country as witnessed by our history. Our use of military force and the gun laws today will keep our violence active.

[Marr]

69. Genocide is not just "human nature".

It's taught that way, yes. It's often suggested that Europeans actions throughout the Western Hemisphere during this era were just a matter of humans doing what humans do. But there are other examples of cultures coming into contact with one another, without genocide or an accompanying subjugation.

[Art_from_Ark]

79. You should read the account of Bartolome de las Casas

regarding the treatment of Arawak Indians in Hispaniola at the hands of his fellow Spaniards:

"A Spanish missionary, Bartolome de las Casas, described first-hand how the Spaniards terrorized the natives.<4> Las Casas gives numerous eye-witness accounts of repeated mass murder and routine sadistic torture. As Barry Lopez has accurately summarized it, "One day, in front of Las Casas, the Spanish dismembered, beheaded, or raped 3000 people. 'Such inhumanities and barbarisms were committed in my sight,' he says, 'as no age can parallel....' The Spanish cut off the legs of children who ran from them. They poured people full of boiling soap. They made bets as to who, with one sweep of his sword, could cut a person in half. They loosed dogs that 'devoured an Indian like a hog, at first sight, in less than a moment.' They used nursing infants for dog food."<2,pg.4> This was not occasional violence -- it was a systematic, prolonged campaign of brutality and sadism, a policy of torture, mass murder, slavery and forced labor that continued for CENTURIES.

http://nativenewsonline.org/~ishgooda/racial/holid2.htm

[Greyhound]

82. "You Spanish" discovered nothing, he stumbled onto it much like GWB stumbled into the White House

and with similar qualifications, namely none.

The Mayan civilization had ended about 500 years before this buffoon 'discovered' the west.

He tortured and enslaved people, as was the tradition of 'you' Spaniards and the rest of Europe. He was a pioneer in the international sex slave trade and boasted about the rape and mutilation of native girls, 8 - 10 years old being the most popular age. His personal correspondence recounted such lovely practices as skewering uncooperative young girls "from anus to mouth" and roasting them over an open fire, no doubt to prove his piety and Christian morals.

He was every bit the sociopathic, blood-thirsty savage and the world would be a better place had he fallen victim to his own savage culture before he had the opportunity to breed.


"As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand." - Josh Billings

[cemaphonic]

78. No, that was how the Portuguese discovered Brazil

Which happened about a decade after Columbus found the West Indies. Columbus was deliberately sailing West to China - but it was an accident in that he had hugely underestimated the size of the Earth, and would have starved to death had North America not been where it was.

[stray cat]

14. You better be working today and not taking advantage of anything columbus accomplished

Otheriwise you are hypocritical

[Motown_Johnny]

15. Columbus committed genocide??? Are you sure about that?

Europeans who came here after him did, but he himself? I kinda doubt that.

[woo me with science]

17. I can just see your little chest all puffed up with righteousness.

These threads are always adorable.

[proteus_lives]

58. Aren't they?

:rofl:

[Odin2005]

18. Not to be a nit-pick, but most of the deaths were from European diseases.

So many Native Americans died from European diseases that the level of CO2 in the atmosphere dropped by 5 to 10 PPM, cooling the climate, causing the Little Ice Age. In fact, according to climatologist Bill Ruddiman, the cooling came very close to tipping the climate past the threshold for glaciation, so Columbus can be blamed for almost throwing us into another ice age!

:wow:

Had they have been immune from European diseases they would have had the population numbers to fight off settlement. I can easily see the Aztecs, Incas, and Mayans figuring out how guns work and trying to make them themselves, ditto with iron-smelting. Were it not for the diseases IMO contact would have caused a societal boom from the import of Eurasian metallurgy and livestock.

[Rebubula]

21. LOLWUT?

Where did you read this claptrap? The number of Native Americans that were dying would have been offset by the number of Europeans that were landing in the 'new world'.

I am calling shenanigans on this theory.

[Odin2005]

24. According to Ruddiman the population of the Americas did not recover until...

...the 1800s.

[HEyHEY]

110. Really? You think this PROVEN theory is bullshit? Did you GO to school, at all?

It's a well known fact that exists to this day as native genes have not yet adapted to our diseases. Ever heard of small pox? We used to give them infected blankets, for christs sake!

[msongs]

22. diseases were used as a deliberate killing strategy by the christian europeans nt

[Odin2005]

25. But that was after the population was already devastated.

[Tsiyu]

30. Thanks

I like your theory.

When DeSoto cruised through the Southeast US, his armed men were scared to death of leaving the paths carved out for centuries in the dense forests. They were weinies who couldn't hunt, fish or follow a map. They kidnapped a female chief and forced her and her entourage to tell them where the "gold" was, and then to take them to the gold, using the female chief's beloved stature in every small village (in modern day North Carolina, Tennessee, Georgia) they encountered to demand food and supplies for themselves. They were savage cowards who exploited the generosity and humanity of the native people.

The natives gave them lots of turkeys and small dogs they bred just for these occasions ( they did not eat them themselves lol. So the dog lovers will be mad but it was the Euro-dudes who munched on them :( .)


She managed to escape, but thereafter, new explorers had a tough time convincing these folks that they were out for anything but blood and gold and grub for their brutish forces. Tribes who were former enemies, or who became enemies in superstition due to the diseases or because of conflicts with the colonizers, would have eventually declared peace and aligned against the colonizers had the native people not been made so vulnerable by massive disease and death and slaughter and enslavement. At least, that is one way to imagine it might have been.

I do believe if disease had not wiped out so many tribes so rapidly, Spain, France and Britain would have faced a much more difficult time trying to colonize the Southeast.

But it is what it is....now what do we do with this New World?

[The_Commonist]

23. I think Columbus Day hatred...

...is as silly as Columbus Day.

[fishwax]

34. I think the Columbus-Day-Hater Hate is as silly as either

:):bounce:

[HuckleB]

68. Don't forget about the Haters Hating On Haters Of Hating Haters. Now that's SILLY!

:crazy:

[dkf]

26. Is this like hating your parents for bringing you into this world?

I'm not even on the continent but I acknowledge I owe my way of life to what he did.

[Lost-in-FL]

46. It went more like raping one's mom to bring you into this world. nt

[dkf]

47. How does that work? What did Columbus do to me?

And why isn't any other Central American, South American etc attacked for displacing American Indians?

I'll tell you why...because we hate the powerful and since that is us, we hate Columbus for enabling the creation of this country.

[Lost-in-FL]

48. Lay off the Tea for a minute.

:rofl:

[dkf]

49. You don't think all this Columbus hatred is dislike of our own country?

Then what is it seriously. Where would we be if the US was the United Tribes of America? The world would certainly be different. My life would be different.

[Lost-in-FL]

51. Well.... noooooo.... Lol!!

In fact, it is not even related. I do not know where are you going with this and in fact, I think you are bluffing.

I really don't know if you are being unbelievably comical or unbelievably dull.

[JackRiddler]

99. Dislike of your country, maybe.

But not of mine.

[Dark]

111. You bring up a good point. Why doesn't the populace rename "Colombia"?

It is, after all, named after Christopher COLUMBUS.

[JackRiddler]

88. Then you've chosen a false idol.

Your way of life probably has more to do with the discovery that oil burns well as fuel, or with the uprising of the French against their nobles, than it does with the exploits of a minor European conquistador.

[verges]

90. Actually,

had Columbus not done what he did, no one here would probably even exist.

[JackRiddler]

95. That's true of almost any other event in history.

Had Hannibal not done what he did...

Had the builders of Baghdad not done what they did...

Had Genghis Khan not done what he did...

Then everything would be different and none of us would exist as the persons we are, but there would still be a humanity with a lot of people of all kinds.

The existence of any particular person on this planet with their particular history and sense of identity is contingent on pretty much everything that ever came before, including literally trillions of trivial events. For all we know if modern age European imperialism had not burned the world, everyone living today (none of whom would correspond to anyone actually living today) would

It's your choice to identify with this or that event in history. It's your choice whether to identify with the Spanish conquistadors and give them a holiday, or with the indigenous they killed, or with something else altogether, like the working class struggles that have a lot more to do with any quality of life most of us experience than Columbus and his imposition of slave labor on Hispaniola. For example, you're not celebrating the fight for the eight-hour day or the discovery of penicillin, you're glorifying a common bandit looking for plunder. Your choice.

The love-it-or-leave-it attitude to received "American" history has long impoverished this board.

[verges]

97. The first four of your paragraphs

are exactly my point. However, to ignore the importance of the European invasion seems pretty silly also. It happened. It shaped who we are as a nation. I don't mind the truth being told about all the negatives. But to ignore it is to deny ourselves and our own bloody history.

[JackRiddler]

98. Who said anything about denying history...

bloody or otherwise. There are 365 days a year and about 30 of them will be devoted to holidays of some sort. We can choose what to commemorate, and how. This one is not called Invasion Day or at least Encounter Day, it's called Columbus Day as though he were the protagonist and presumed good guy of the fairly significant 1492 event -- which would have happened sooner or later anyway. It's not even about the European "discovery" but, cartoonishly, devoted to a single expedition commander, as though he alone made the history. However, on a much deeper level it's about the superiority and goodness of the European victors in the Americas, who discovered and achieved when in fact they also conquered, killed and displaced.

Why not one for the Black Plague? It created the modern world, arguably more so than any other event.

[verges]

100. I like it.

An international memoriaal day for the millions killed by the black death. Good idea.

Do you have any particular date in mind?

[JackRiddler]

101. The plague entered Europe through Genoa in January 1348.

That's a pretty eurocentrist choice, I know. I guess each country should commemorate it based on when the first big outbreak was recorded in their region.

Here's a good promo motif:


"Tonight I'm Gonna Party Like It's 1349!"

[Nye Bevan]

27. Wow, how original. A DU post slamming Columbus on Columbus day!

I could never have predicted that one. Well I for one will be enjoying my day off while honoring that great explorer who achieved more in 1492 than either the OP or I will achieve in our lifetimes.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

60. Yeah, I know

Just like we'll have one in a month saying Veteran's Day glorifies war, and one on Thanksgiving saying we raped the Indians then too.....and Christmas is evil, and.... and.....

[Panaconda]

28. The responses here are pretty bizarre

Chapter 1: Columbus, The Indians, and Human Progress

Arawak men and women, naked, tawny, and full of wonder, emerged from their villages onto the island's beaches and swam out to get a closer look at the strange big boat. When Columbus and his sailors came ashore, carrying swords, speaking oddly, the Arawaks ran to greet them, brought them food, water, gifts. He later wrote of this in his log:

They ... brought us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells. They willingly traded everything they owned... . They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features.... They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane... . They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want.

These Arawaks of the Bahama Islands were much like Indians on the mainland, who were remarkable (European observers were to say again and again) for their hospitality, their belief in sharing. These traits did not stand out in the Europe of the Renaissance, dominated as it was by the religion of popes, the government of kings, the frenzy for money that marked Western civilization and its first messenger to the Americas, Christopher Columbus.

Columbus wrote:

As soon as I arrived in the Indies, on the first Island which I found, I took some of the natives by force in order that they might learn and might give me information of whatever there is in these parts.

The information that Columbus wanted most was: Where is the gold? He had persuaded the king and queen of Spain to finance an expedition to the lands, the wealth, he expected would be on the other side of the Atlantic-the Indies and Asia, gold and spices. For, like other informed people of his time, he knew the world was round and he could sail west in order to get to the Far East.

...

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncol1.html

[Nye Bevan]

31. Washington and Jefferson were both slaveholders, but I still honor them (nt)

[Panaconda]

32. I don't

I do not honor the founding fathers. It was a business deal, all the hagiography aside.

This country was founded on genocide and slavery- plain and simple.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

61. Don't worry, so was just about every country

Unless you want to start looking into other planets, I suggest you move on.

[JonLP24]

81. Funny whenever it comes to things like this

and slavery people are told to "move on" or "get over it". How come no one says that on the Fourth of July? "The Revolutionary War is over, get over it".

[Heidi]

39. I, too, am puzzled.

"They would make fine servants.... With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."

:puke:

[Javaman]

43. Sounds like the rich today in their view of us. nt

[Greyhound]

84. Exactly. n/t

[HuckleB]

71. In other words, Columbus was a man of the age in which he lived.

Shocking!

:eyes:

[JackRiddler]

96. So was Hitler.

You choose whom to honor.

[HuckleB]

102. Columbus lived a world view held by most in Europe for centuries..

Hitler pushed his world view upon a portion of Europe, for a very small period of time.

There is no comparison.

Hyperbole is not a tool that leads to a greater understanding of the world.

[JackRiddler]

104. Hyperbole is often useful in exposing bullshit.

Everyone's a product of their time. The majority view in the US supported southern slavery, the abolitionists were the deviants. But the abolitionists existed in that same time, and they were right then as they are today.

When he had human beings enslaved, worked to death, and killed for the slightest disobedience, and when he wrote back to Madrid about what fine slaves these indigenous people made because they were so naive, Columbus knew exactly what he was doing. He was making his decisions freely. "Product of his time" is never an excuse. He could read in his own Holy Book that he was breaking of all his God's laws. Others chose a different path, and we would be wiser to honor them.

It occurs to me spontaneously that I'd rather see a Galileo Day.

[HuckleB]

106. If that's the case, then you used it to expose your own bullshit.

Thank you.

[Greyhound]

83. With thanks.

These supremely ignorant defenses of practices that, even by the 'standards' of the day, were barbaric, are bizarrely fascinating.

[Lost-in-FL]

29. K&R, nt

[hayu_lol]

35. No point in venting your spleen on Columbus...

the trip would have been made by someone over the following 5 years. No way would the Europeans not have made the voyage despite the deaths on board the ships from scurvy and other problems.

[Lost-in-FL]

45. Spaniards were only the first to "document" and implement cheap labor in America.

Of course, America as a "continent" and not as the imperial power. However, some say it was the vikings, others the chinese whom obviously lived by the "live and let live" philosophy. Still, even if someone were to "discover" (ironically) a land with already millions of inhabitants in it 5 years later, it was Columbus the asshole who finally accomplished it. Funny how many here think we should be grateful to him.

[sufrommich]

36. Ah, the annual Columbus/Genocide thread.

How original.

[Roon]

37. LMAO!!

I am laughing at your "fuck columbus" part of the OP.

[seabeyond]

40. asked 15 yr old, what holiday today. he says "columbus day. not fair celebrating

culombus day, the guy was a jerk." lol. i didnt give him this.

why:

got a lot of people killed, didnt care about native, he exploited them.

i asked him where he learned this....

school

[Nye Bevan]

74. Yeah, I'm familiar with that type of politically correct teacher (nt)

[kpete]

42. you are not alone

when thinking this, but be careful of filling your heart with dark holes...
peace, kp

[SargeUNN]

44. problem with apply today's morality to past times is

the past time always looks bad because certain factors were not as popular in society as they are today. We learn from experience and knowledge of past mistakes (if we aren't too inclined to hang on to old myths and thoughts) so we have to realize that applying today's standards are not fair. It doesn't make the wrongs right, but things have to be put into their proper level.

I had an uncle that was considered very liberal, especially for a man who lived in Jim Crow Mississippi, who would fight for the rights of a black person, however, he was very opposed to inter-racial marriage. Today he would not be considered liberal even in that area because the change of society has caught up or even past his knowledge.

Columbus was 15th Century and the values of that time were far different so naturally Columbus was a product of his time as we are today. We must remember he was only human and even our greatest heroes were open to being less than admirable in some ways. Look at Oskar Schindler, he was a out to make a fortune at the expense of the Jews but instead turned into their savior. He was bad to drink and while married wasn't beyond extra relationships with other women, but truly his greatest moment was his acts of humanity that saved not only those lives he knew, but generations to come after him. Should we not celebrate his brave and wonderful act due to his faults or should we realize that he was human and made some bad choices but when it came time to make a big choice he chose right.

[Warren DeMontague]

50. speaking of sailing off into the sunset...

anyone seen the OP?

[librechik]

52. i'm down with that

ya ta hey

[KurtNYC]

53. because we need a holiday in October and the fundies would freak

if banks and schools closed for Halloween.

[slackmaster]

54. I'll bet Thanksgiving is real fun at your house, southmost

:nuke:

[LanternWaste]

55. which bits of history do we keep academic, and which bits do we raise our fists at in righteous indi

I feel the same way when I went to Alexandria, Egypt. F*ck them for maintaining that name which did so many horrors to...

William the Conqueror? What a pig. I hate him. He makes me want to get all.... foot-stompy.

Let's not even get started on Gladstone because...





Wait a sec, I keep forgetting... which bits of history do we keep academic, and which bits do we raise our fists at in righteous indignation and take personally? :shrug:

[Nye Bevan]

66. FUCK WASHINGTON AND LINCOLN

Washington owned slaves. Lincoln led the country into an unnecessary war. Diplomacy should have been given more time to work.

[Marr]

73. Here's the thing.

Columbus is more of an icon than an historical figure in the US. To revere a man who did the things he did is to accept certain things as normal.

In my opinion, the worst idea advanced by this particular bit of historical lionization is that, when two cultures of differing power come into contact, it is natural that the weaker be exterminated or subjugated. It isn't. It's unusual. Human history has more stories of relatively peaceful cooperation and intermingling between such groups than Columbus-style genocide and plunder.

Columbus absolutely should be studied-- he's an incredibly important historical figure. But that doesn't mean he should be lionized, revered, or even respected.

[Lucian]

56. Columbus wasn't the first European who discovered America.

The Vikings may have discovered America before Columbus. The Kensington Runestone may be proof that the Vikings were here in the 14th Century.

If you're an archaeologist and buy into the Solutrean Hypothesis in the peopling of North America, you can cite Cactus Hill and Meadowcroft rockshelter archaeological sites as evidence that there were Europeans here 15,000 years BP.

Any way you put it, Columbus wasn't here first.

[HuckleB]

70. Thank you for making the obligatory "the Vikings were here first" post

:hi:

[verges]

91. But it was columbus

who really introduced the Americas to Western Europe and began the age of exploration and colonization which resulted, eventually, in us.

[MellowDem]

62. Columbus died from genocide?

Let it go man. Columbus Day is a historic day, nothing more nothing less.

[Nye Bevan]

65. Cool. Zero net recs on the obligatory DU "fuck Columbus" thread.

I guess the oh-so-politically correct "Columbus was a genocidal maniac" idiocy is starting to wear a little thin here.

[Panaconda]

67. It's actually

historically correct.

The politically correct version either celebrates the day or more likely just doesn't want to be asked to reflect too deeply upon the significance of the slaughter which is symbolized by Columbus.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. Edit. Delete.

[Nikia]

72. For both good and bad, we would not be here today without him or someone like him

There would not be the U.S. nor would most of us be alive, being the products of ancestors who were not originally from the same place. Although the Europeans sought to subjugate and impose their culture upon the Native Americans and later African slaves, the Europeans ended up changed by them as well. Perhaps Democracy would have never came to Europe without the experience of the "New World" and those who lived there. Despite widespread racial/ethnic discrimination that continues to this day, the settlement of the Americas brought about the concept of diverse groups of people being able to live with each other in peace and as a result, the majority of the world is much more tolerant of other peoples than they were 500 years ago. Yes, there were very many bad things that happened, but very many things bad have been happening throughout all of human history. Now we are to this point in the history of America and the world, we can learn from our experiences good and bad and strive to move in the right direction towards life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for all people.

[mix]

75. Columbus made choices that will ensure his infamy, as did most European colonizers..

He chose war, rape and theft rather than peace, trade and cooperation.

Fuck him indeed.

[unkachuck]

76. "...why is his genocide still being celebrated..."

....I've been asking myself the same question, and I'm Italian....he didn't discover this continent, this continent was never lost....he discovered looting, pillaging, profit and exploitation....

....you have to have your head stuck up a medieval European ass to fully appreciate Columbus Day....

[verges]

92. Discvovery is a matter of perspective.

To western Europe, he did discover it. And that was one of the turning points of history!

[JonLP24]

80. I just wish they would deliver mail

I hate Columbus Day!! :grr:

(I'd feel differently if they delivered mailed)

[slackmaster]

103. Don't forget that Columbus was actually lost. He thought he was going to India.

So your mail is symbolically lost in remembrance of Columbus.

[Desertrose]

85. Makes ya wonder, doesn't it?

Check out this Youtube clip about how "great" Colombus was....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wm0EvTk8o4&feature=related

[pstokely]

89. It's a minor holiday around here

no parade, school is in session, only Government and Bank employees and postal workers have a day off

[Warren DeMontague]

94. Yeah, I really would have liked to have gotten my mail.

What a dick.

[NeedleCast]

105. LOL

Unrec...

[Nye Bevan]

112. He got off his ass and discovered a continent.

Just a little bit more impressive than sitting at home posting snarky comments on internet message boards.