What is the purpose of denying an ex felon the right to vote?

[Winterblues]

Does an ex felon lose all American rights or just a select few? I know they also lose the right to possess a firearm..Do they lose their right to a jury trial and their right to an attorney? What rights do they lose and what rights are they still allowed and who chooses?

[daleanime]

1. You know....

those are some good questions, Kicked in the hope that some wiser DUer has answers for us!

[Eric J in MN]

2. In Vermont, people can vote even while they're in prison. NT

NT

[Luminous Animal]

3. That is the way it should be.

[Eric J in MN]

6. I agree. Making convicts feel disconnected from the rest of society...

...makes them more likely to re-offend.

Encouraging them to vote helps them to feel connected.

[uncommon]

9. I have to disagree. Prison is a loss of rights and privileges.

It shouldn't carry the rights and privileges of law abiding citizens.

[Eric J in MN]

12. They're already locked in cages.

Unable to hold a regular job.

Having to eat prison food.

They lose enough rights and priveleges without taking away their voting rights.

[uncommon]

14. I disagree. They are removed from society for a reason.

I do, however, think they should have their right to vote reinstated when they are released.

[Romulox]

17. Yep. Primarily for non-violent drug offenses.

:hi: :eyes:

[uncommon]

40. Roll your eyes all you want - work towards reforming the legal system if you

think too many people are incarcerated who shouldn't be. I agree with you as far as non-violent drug crimes.

However, that doesn't mean I think prison inmates have a right to vote. I don't.

[Romulox]

44. Right. And defend the status quo of our racist prison system if *you* want

Choices. :shrug:

[hendo]

27. Has it ever occured to you that violent offenders (in particular)

are there for a reason?

Why should someone who is in prison hold a regular job (while in prison), or be able to eat anything other than prison food?

[Eric J in MN]

79. I wasn't saying that violent offenders don't belong in prison...

...or that they should be able to work or eat differently.

I was saying that they are being punished in plenty of ways, and that it's inappropriate to say "You can't vote" to a citizen as punishment.

[gmoney]

52. Don't forget the brutal sodomy.

[MedicalAdmin]

72. Either rights are irrevocable and immutable or they aren't rights.

If you are saying that rights can be taken away by legislative fiat then you don't believe in the constitution or bill of rights.

They either apply, or they don't. Period.

[petronius]

22. That's generally true, but I think there needs to be a reason beyond punishment

for denying basic rights - and the more fundamental the right the stronger the reason should be. The imprisonment itself is the punishment, after all.

WRT voting, I can't think of any specific good reason why inmates shouldn't vote, and others in the thread have suggested good reasons why they should. After release, I think it's a travesty that voting rights aren't restored...

[Luminous Animal]

50. Actually, it should. Prison should be for rehabilitation not revenge or retribution...

The more prisoners are connected to mainstream society, the greater chance of success in reentering said society.

Besides, even though disenfranchisement predated Jim Crow, it was greatly expanded after the civil war specifically to discourage African American's from voting. And, given that our justice system is grossly racist, it has the same affect of discredited Jim Crow laws.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. I disagree - I'm not sure that the vote of any person who is under the physical

control of a higher authority can be trusted to be HIS vote, or the vote of that authority.

Unless there are non-prison vote monitors to see that there's nothing hinkey going down.

[AngryAmish]

4. Well, back in the day there were fewer felonies

THey were for the big crimes, like horse thieving and the like. There was not really a professional law enforcement so the penalty had to be real big.

We are not back in the day any longer.

[Xithras]

34. ^ This

The real answer is that, 150 to 200 years ago, "felonies" were limited to crimes like murder, rape, and horse theft (which was akin to attempted murder). Crimes that revealed a serious, and often unredeemable, lack of respect and empathy for those around them. Society decided that murderers and rapists shouldn't have a voice in determining our future, which is understandable. Those who want to destroy society shouldn't get a voice in directing it.

The problem today is that we've expanded "felonies" to include all sorts of pedantic crap. Drug possession. Pissing in bushes in a public park. Opening your spouses mail in Montana.

The result is that people are now denied their rights when their actions had little, if any, negative consequences for society.

[Mimosa]

73. ^ RIGHT! ^ n/t

[treestar]

5. Mere desire to punish

and foolish - it's like telling them they are not a part of this society and letting them out of jail - creating a population of free people who have no part in the society surrounding them. Further encouraging anti-social behavior.

[kestrel91316]

7. It varies from state to state. In TX, IIRC, you permanently lose the right to vote.

Just for the record, I think that's pure evil. I happen to think your debt to society is either paid or not, and saying it's paid but still denying rights is lying.

[Vincardog]

26. In TX you get the right to vote back after you have served your full sentence, no longer on parole.

I know I registered EX-felons in TX

[michreject]

8. What do you mean by ex-felon?

Someone who's had their conviction overturned? If so, all rights are restored.

If you mean someone who's be let out of prison after serving their sentence, they are still felons.

[Winterblues]

18. Some one that committed a felony but served their time

I guess the wording was poor because once a felon always a felon I guess..I am tyalking about someone that paid their due to society for the crime they committed...

[H2O Man]

10. It has had the

effect of lowering the votes in those minority populations with the highest rates for felony convictions. I think that this is one of, if not the primary, reason for this.

[JonLP24]

20. Yep.

And I believe felons (I like the Vermont system but will accept RTV after time served) should be able to vote for candidates and ballot measures that affect changes in their communities.

I wasn't sure if you seen my other post a few days ago but I wanted to let you know I saw the "Ring of Fire" documentary and it was quite good. When you said Emile Griffith was one of the nicest people you ever met, I could clear see that through the documentary. :hi:

[H2O Man]

39. Emile is an

even greater human being, than he was a boxer. And the guy was definitely one of the greatest boxers of all time.

[raccoon]

21. Ding, ding, we have a winner! It's a way of disenfranchising large numbers of the underclass. nt

[Hannah Bell]

23. +100

[MedicalAdmin]

74. +1

I'm not as important as Hannah, so I only have a measly plus one to give H2O's comment, but it is donated.

Voting rolls are an extension of Jim Crow laws which are an extension of slavery.

[hendo]

35. Ya know, the alternative is to not be thrown in jail for violent crimes.

I am all for restoring the right to vote for non-violent offenders. But when people takes themselves out of the system with a violent crime, they deserve whats coming to them.

Should the gang members who gang raped the young gay man in NYC ever vote again?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-10-11-gang-hate-crime_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

What about Tyler Clementi's roommate who embarrassed him to eh point that he committed suicide?
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/internetprivacy/2010-09-29-student-taped_N.htm

What about Jackie Duvale Jenkins and Lorenzo Jaquel Herion who perpetrated not one but a string of violent crimes in GA?
http://www2.scnow.com/news/2010/oct/08/two-horry-county-fugitives-arrested-violent-crimes-ar-935787/

What about William Snodgrass who raped multiple homeless women?
http://www.wbir.com/news/article/138067/2/Knoxville-homeless-man-charged-with-raping-multiple-homeless-women

They should all be thrown in jail for a very long time, and if they lose the right to vote because of their actions then so be it.

[H2O Man]

41. Actually,

there are many alternatives. The idea that those advocating for people to have voting rights after serving their time are limited in thinking that the only alternative is not incarcerating violent felons is lame.

[hendo]

59. Sorry, I didnt quite follow that

Should convicted violent crime offenders be allowed to vote. Yes or no? These are people who have proven that they do not respect the rights of others. As far as I am concerned they have removed themselves from society with those actions and therefore no longer deserve to have a say in how society is run.

[Winterblues]

42. What about my son who did something truly stupid but not violent

He bought a pistol from a friend of his.. turns out the pistol was stolen and he was caught with it in his car after being stopped for speeding....He served no time in either jail or prison but did a plea deal for two years of probation and had a felony on his record for the rest of his life.....Should he now be denied any say in how society functions? He was seventeen when this happened...

[Saphire]

51. pretty much the same with my hubby. He was 17 when he got his

felony. Now at 47, we still have to deal with it. It's a crying shame. He was charged with theft of an automobile, his fathers car. Got 3 months in jail and 2 yr probation. Nothing else in 30 years. Still, we can't even rent an apartment in TX. He is registered to vote, however.

[hendo]

58. And thats the issue with grand theft auto

sometimes parents call it in to teach their children a lesson. I cant believe his dad actually continued to press charges once he found out the penalty was 3 months in prison. I suspect there is more to this story than you are telling me. Again though, not a violent crime unless he assaulted his father prior to stealing the car.

[Saphire]

60. yeah, there's years worth of "more to the story", but that's it in a nutshell.

[hendo]

56. I have repeatedly said violent crimes in this thread

In that case, his friend should be arrested and have the mark on his record. Unless your son knowingly purchased a stolen pistol. Either way, he was not involved in a violent crime so I am on the fence about it.

[MedicalAdmin]

75. Yes, they should vote again.

We either are serious about extending the voting franchise to everyone over 18 or we are not. If it's a right, then it can't be taken away. If it can be taken away then it was NEVER a right.

So do you think that everyone over 18 has the right to vote? Or not?

[hendo]

78. I know that i am goign to get flamed for this

but there is no constitutional right to vote. Should we have a a federal guarantee on our right to vote, yes. Do we? No.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2006/09/21/no_right_to_vote
http://www.fairvote.org/why-we-need-the-right-to-vote-amendment

Do I think that someone should forcefully remove someone from the voting populace? No. Do I think that someone can remove themselves from the voting populace? Yes.

It isn't a question of taking away someone's rights, it is a question of their willingness to take away the rights of others.

[fishwax]

43. +1

[zipplewrath]

11. Due process of law

You CAN be denied all of your rights through "due process". Once you are convicted of a felony, the laws of various states have decided to deny people all manner of rights. Often this is extended through parole periods as well. Sex offenders have increasingly been denied various rights, mostly of where they can live and work. And those basically are "life long" restrictions, and can follow them across state lines. The supreme court has a mixed record on the issue, but generally they recognize the states rights to limit your rights once convicted. They make some allowances for appeals, and associated procedures. But in some states convicts have no "right" to have evidence retested for DNA or other science advances.

It is an understandable power, but I think we have long figured out that basically our "criminal justice" system doesn't work in societies best interest and that we need to revist how we respond to felons. Amongst these considerations should be the extent to which we deny, permanently, peoples basic human rights after conviction.

[barbtries]

13. more likely

to be a democrat. why else?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

16. Felons are more likely to be Democrats?

interesting. I wonder if the inverse is true...

[barbtries]

19. i just rushed that comment out there

but someone upthread said it much better. minority voters are more likely to vote for democrats.

[MH1]

30. AND, minorities are more likely to go to prison for the SAME crime as a white person

Look at crack vs powder cocaine sentencing disparities for a classic example, but I'm sure folks who work in the field can cite many many more examples.

Minorities are more likely to vote for democrats. Make sure you jail more of them and once jailed they can't vote, then you have altered the electoral situation in the favor on non-democrats.

[JonLP24]

33. I agree with almost everything

but felon voter disfranchising is approved in several states and in some of those states had bi-partisan support in their passage. However in most cases had Republican dominated legislatures.

I support it, cause you have these poor communities and some end up in prison whether rightly or wrongly and then a significant voting bloc of that community cannot vote for candidates or ballot measures to affect meaningful change for those communities.

[txlibdem]

45. Felons are most likely to be Republicans. CONVICTED felons are more likely to be Democrats/Minority

Just look at the banksters, insurance company execs, hedge fund managers, and CEOs. I would have a hard time believing they're not all felons, perhaps they're all murderers as well; I know the insurance execs sure as hell are. Do you think that causing someone to die via paperwork or a computer file is any different than pulling a trigger?

These felons just get away with it. Ref: Bush & Cheney for further info.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

48. I think just about everyone is a felon of some degree...

There are thousands of felony laws out there that really make you scratch your head. Just about everyone in america has knowingly or unknowingly broken one.

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

54. Techinically that's probably true.

But only because the Republican criminals have enough money to hire better lawyers, and are rarely convicted. :(

And I say this as a Liberal who was tried, convicted, and executed on some bogus charges a while back.

[Romulox]

15. Our apartheid system is expressed through prisons and the War on Drugs.

There's a big clue for you.

[slackmaster]

24. I think it should be all or nothing

If we can't trust someone to vote or to use a firearm responsibly, we can't trust that person to walk around free.

[JonLP24]

28. Interesting

considering what passes for a felony these days. In Arizona, cannabis of any amount is a felony (for a first time offense you can plead for a CL 6 misdemeanor) you lose the right to vote in this state and I imagine you lose the right to own a firearm. In an "All" approach that person would also be locked up for life.

[slackmaster]

32. Cannabis should be legal

The law is messed up.

[uncle ray]

63. so how do you change the law when drug felons can't vote?

straights sure ain't gonna do it, and those that haven't yet been busted don't want to stick their neck out.

[slackmaster]

70. Watch California next month

We'll show you how it's done.

[uncle ray]

76. california allows felons to vote.

please do show us how to deal with the feds too.

[slackmaster]

77. Only felons who have completed their sentences and are not on parole

http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/sharing-ideas/a-voting-guide-for-inmates.pdf

[TexasObserver]

25. Just another way to limit voting by the underclasses.

The Registration Two Step is another.

Voter fraud, my ass! Difficult registration and barriers to voting are about using any fraud to stop voting.

[WinkyDink]

67. EXACTLY. PRECISELY. The RW knows this.

[Tsiyu]

29. It is a highly effective way to disenfranchise

huge numbers of people for very little cause.

One person I know lost all of his rights - to vote, own a firearm, travel abroad, get food stamps, get college grants - all because of being made a felon for his first ever offense of possessing Sixty dollars worth of psilocybin mushrooms.

He was made a felon by local "christians." (Namely, wealthy and powerful Episcopalians who do not like Appalachians or want them to vote, but who love to live in Appalachia where they can pay the poor people crap wages to clean their toilets and wash their dishes. While their rich, smug kids get high on every substance known to man and always get away with it. And get to vote!)

He joins millions of blacks and poor whites who are non-violent, who never hurt anyone, who possessed small substances but got caught up in a system that wants to disenfranchise the poor.


This is the land of the free. Unless you're poor and you make a mistake.

Then it's just hell.

[WinkyDink]

68. And the poor would be more likely to vote for a Democrat.

[Tsiyu]

69. You've got it

As Jim Webb said, according to the DOJ, one in every thirty-one of us is in prison or on supervised probation or parole.

Go down to your local court on a General Sessions or Circuit Court day and see who is convicted.

The DAs and the judges are fond of convicting the poor, the disabled, the working poor. You'll see the upper classes settle out of court and make cushy pleas for themselves.

It's a very sick system, designed to make money to sustain itself AND to keep the "lower classes" in line, via incarceration, exhorbitant fines and constant law enforcement harrassment.

But everyone who is a victim of this lopsided system feels alone, ashamed and is too poor to rise up en masse and force change.


The color of Justice is Green. The more green you got, the more justice you get.

[Iggo]

31. The purpose is simple: Most prison inmates are non-white. (n/t)

[EC]

36. It used to be believed they were mostly

Democrats...since prisons are full of minorities...but now I'm guessing there are just as many neo-nazi's and red-necks in there too...they would likely vote repub...

[hendo]

38. FYI: 2008 Violent Crime Statistics

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_43.html

[KamaAina]

46. Vote suppression

Think back to Selection 2000 where, even if you had a similar name as an actual felon on the list (e.g. Willie Jackson of Ft. Myers vs. William Jackson of Ft. Lauderdale), you were disenfranchised. :grr:

[oswaldactedalone]

47. Many states allow ex-felons to vote

once their "debt to society" is paid in full. I'm in North Carolina and they regain the right to vote here. They have to register, or "re-register" if they'd already done so, to vote though to remove the "felon" tag from their voting status.

[Naturyl]

49. The premise is probably that felons are not trustworthy enough to make political decisions.

And I personally do not find that particularly unreasonable.

[JonLP24]

53. I personally believe Republicans are not trustworthy enough to make

political decisions yet they do. Why is trust an issue? These are lawmakers, you may feel something shouldn't be a felony, you should be allowed to vote for candidates that advocate for those changes if you feel the designation should be changed.

[Nikia]

55. It depends on the state and I think that it is horrible that people are denied rights

For the rest of their lives. I can see no reason that non violent offenders should be deemed subhuman decades after they committed their crime.
My governor, Doyle of Wisconsin, has been heavily criticized lately for pardoning a larger number of people. He did not commute anyone's sentence, just allowed some people's rights to be restored several years after serving their sentence for a felony. A local editorial said that pardons should be rare, only for exceptional cases. Really, though, I think that everyone should be able to be released from their felon status eventually if they have been crime free for a period of time that would vary with the seriousness of the offense.

[underpants]

57. Who do you think black people vote for?

the War on Drugs is the War on Votes

[struggle4progress]

61. In NC, you get your rights back after serving your sentence (including

parole)

Voting Rights Brochure
If you are convicted of a felony in North Carolina, you temporarily lose your citizenship rights, including your right to vote. Any prior registration you had before your felony conviction is cancelled by the County Board of Elections with no action on your part. Any attempt to register to vote while you are an active felon is a felony. However, after completing all the terms of your sentence (including parole and probation), you do not have to do anything to have your citizenship rights restored. Those rights are automatically restored (N.C. Gen. Stat. 13-1). Registering to vote, again or for the first time, is all you will need to do before voting in the county where you reside after your discharge. If you have completed all parts of your sentence for a felony conviction or have been pardoned, you are eligible to vote in North Carolina. To avoid potential difficulties with registering and voting, you should ask for your Certificate of Restoration of Forfeited Rights of Citizenship from your releasing officer (N.C. Gen. Stat. 13-2). This is not necessary to register and vote, but it may make it easier should you encounter any problems ...
<pdf:> http://www.doc.state.nc.us/rap/ACLU_NC_Voting_Rts_brochure_for_ex_offenders.pdf

[defendandprotect]

62. Evidently they thought that ex-prisoners would gang up and use their votes to do ....?????

But that's what I've read --

don't know what they feared -- but we release over 450,000 prisoners every year --

we have to do something about our prisons and this Drug War -- it's disgusting!

And, the more brutally we punish prisoners the worse the circumstances when they exit!

Also, 280,000 males a year being raped in our prisons -- and women "sold" by guards to

male prisoners to be raped???

We're insane!!

Government takes careful watching and a lot of our elected officials seem to have been

looking the other way!!

Ugh!!

[Rex]

64. To keep them from ever commiting a crime again?

That is my best guess and probably wrong.

[Inchworm]

65. Once: always

Ex has no play in it.


:hi:

[urgk]

71. I don't understand: Once a felon, always a...non-citizen? Non-voter?

Because if the felony has nothing to do with vote tampering, voter fraud, etc., I don't see a logical connection there. The firearm prohibition makes sense to me, but in terms of Constitutional rights, the OP asks a valid question.

[B Calm]

66. Good question.

[Quantess]

80. Because they are disproportionately minorities.