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Anyone want to help me respond to THIS regarding abortion?Should I even waste my time?

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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:32 PM
Original message
Anyone want to help me respond to THIS regarding abortion?Should I even waste my time?
http://www.thedailylight.com/articles/2010/10/13/opinion/doc4cb5e4f554d75059381480.txt

LETTER: ‘On abortion’
Published: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:24 PM CDT
To the Editor,

“It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jeremiah 10:23).

Why should America uphold abortion, murder? The Lord doth hat “hands that shed innocent blood” (Proverbs 6:16-17).

“Thou shalt do no murder” (Matthew 19:18). “In lowliness, of mind, let each esteem other better than themselves” (Philippians 2:3).

God Bless America

Isaac Colvin

Harrodsburg, Ky.

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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ask him if he is against war
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 12:35 PM by Angry Dragon
His god killed all kinds of people
and his god promoted war
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. my main concern is that it will affect women locally who are considering an abortion
incest and non-consentual sex are common here
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. "Non-consensual sex" = rape
Please don't call it sex.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. Is that the whole thing? Not going to subscribe to read. Thanks
Wondering if there is more or if it is a simple interpretation of the bible short letter.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. yes.no mention of rape,incest...anything ..
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. If you want to go via interpretation of biblical verse, Philippians 2:3
http://www.preceptaustin.org/philippians_23-4.htm
hilippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; (NASB: Lockman)
Greek: meden kat' eritheian mede kata kenodoxian, alla te tapeinophrosune allelous hegoumenoi (PMPMPN) huperechontas (PMPMPA) heauton
Amplified: Do nothing from factional motives or prompted by conceit and empty arrogance. Instead, in the true spirit of humility (lowliness of mind) let each regard the others as better than and superior to himself . (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
BBE: Doing nothing through envy or through pride, but with low thoughts of self let everyone take others to be better than himself
ICB: When you do things, do not let selfishness or pride be your guide. Be humble and give more honor to others than to yourselves. (ICB: Nelson)
NLT: Don't be selfish; don't live to make a good impression on others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourself. (NLT - Tyndale House)
KJV: Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Phillips : Never act from motives of rivalry or personal vanity, but in humility think more of each other then you do of yourselves. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: Doing nothing impelled by a spirit of factiousness, nothing impelled by empty pride, but in lowliness of mind consider one another as excelling themselves, this estimation resting, not upon feelings or sentiment, but upon a due consideration of facts. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: nothing in rivalry or vain-glory, but in humility of mind one another counting more excellent than yourselves--


http://bible.cc/philippians/2-3.htm

New International Version (©1984)
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Don't be selfish; don't try to impress others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourselves.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;

International Standard Version (©2008)
Do not act out of selfish ambition or conceit, but with humility think of others as being better than yourselves.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Don't act out of selfish ambition or be conceited. Instead, humbly think of others as being better than yourselves.

King James Bible
nothing through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

American King James Version
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

American Standard Version
doing nothing through faction or through vainglory, but in lowliness of mind each counting other better than himself;

Bible in Basic English
Doing nothing through envy or through pride, but with low thoughts of self let everyone take others to be better than himself;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let nothing be done through contention, neither by vain glory: but in humility, let each esteem others better than themselves:

Darby Bible Translation
let nothing be in the spirit of strife or vain glory, but, in lowliness of mind, each esteeming the other as more excellent than themselves;

English Revised Version
doing nothing through faction or through vainglory, but in lowliness of mind each counting other better than himself;

Webster's Bible Translation
Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Weymouth New Testament
Do nothing in a spirit of factiousness or of vainglory, but, with true humility, let every one regard the rest as being of more account than himself;

World English Bible
doing nothing through rivalry or through conceit, but in humility, each counting others better than himself;

Young's Literal Translation
nothing in rivalry or vain-glory, but in humility of mind one another counting more excellent than yourselves --


Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Let nothing be done through strife - With a spirit of contention. This command forbids us to do anything, or attempt anything as the mere result of strife. This is not the principle from which we are to act, or by which we are to be governed. We are to form no plan, and aim at no object which is to be secured in this way. The command prohibits all attempts to secure anything over others by mere physical strength, or by superiority of intellect or numbers. or as the result of dark schemes and plans formed by rivalry, or by the indulgence of angry passions, or with the spirit of ambition. We are not to attempt to do anything merely by outstripping others, or by showing that we have more talent, courage, or zeal. What we do is to be by principle, and with a desire to maintain the truth, and to glorify God. And yet how often is this rule violated! How often do Christian denominations attempt to outstrip each other, and to see which shall be the greatest! How often do ministers preach with no better aim! How often do we attempt to outdo others in dress, and it the splendor of furniture and equipment! How often, even in plans of benevolence, and in the cause of virtue and religion, is the secret aim to outdo others. This is all wrong. There is no holiness in such efforts. Never once did the Redeemer act from such a motive, and never once should this motive be allowed to influence us. The conduct of others may be allowed to show us what we can do, and ought to do; but it should not be our sole aim to outstrip them; compare 2 Corinthians 9:2-4. (more)


In other words, consider what the pregnant woman is going through.


Proverbs 6:12-19 (only a scoundrel and villain go about being so selective of biblical verses. What will dissension and a heart devising wicked schemes, etc)
http://bible.logos.com/passage/NIV/Pr%206.16-17#ref=Pr%206%3A16%E2%80%9317%2Chi%3DPr%206%3A16-Pr%206%3A17&ver=NIV

12 A scoundrel and villain, who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,signals with his feet and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.
16 There are six things the Lord hates,seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,a lying tongue,hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.


However, if you don't want to go biblical verse, which can be difficult since those scoundrels pull out selective bits and ignore others, will address in another post.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Fundies not worth the effort.
They will only become angrier and continue to twist scripture to suit their own purposes.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Pearls to the swine, as the Scripture says. nt
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Precisely.
One of several reasons we left our church.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Same here. There was no sense talking to any of them. nt
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. Can you make it personal?
"What if your daughter was raped and impregnated by some criminally insane man? Would you force her to carry the child? Would you want her to raise that child knowing how it was conceived? Would you want your daughter to relive that heinous experience every time she gazed at your grandchild's face?"
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. then they'll say"oh,give him up to a family that will adopt him"
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Sure, after 9 excruciating months of pregnancy...
Which is no cake walk when you love and desperately want the child.

I get what you're saying. I'm going to ponder this; I think it's important.

What I feel is more important is keeping people from foisting their religious beliefs on others. If that was God's intention, this whole life on Earth is meaningless... we would have all stayed in the garden, ignorant but happy. That's not what God chose to do. (Please forgive this Recovering Fundy her foray into "their" world, in their words!)

I'd like to see one scripture in which Jesus told his followers to FORCE anything on another of God's children. Except for that moneychanger's thing, Jesus was pretty damn passive.
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Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. tough crowd.. if he can't distinguish between our laws and his religion he is a lost cause
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. Some burning desire to have the last word? Why not just let it go.
Nothing you say will ever change anyone's minds on this issue. Never.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Never say never...
Giving up isn't a phrase in w8liftinglady's lexicon... nor should it be.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I guess my main concern is for the women in my area.
2 colleges and a HUGE religious faction.What about rape,incest,non-consensual,health,economic,or other reasons?Should women assume it's all their fault?
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ChoppinBroccoli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. He's Setting The Frame, "Abortion = Murder"; Don't Accept It
Reframe the argument. Abortion isn't murder because a fertilized egg is not a person. It's a clump of living cells. Just like cancer is a clump of living cells. If he's not against cutting out a cancerous tumor, then he's a hypocrite.

This person who so values life, I'm sure, also squashes bugs, cuts down trees/grass/plants, owns mousetraps, supports war and capital punishment, and will turn around and argue that when women actually are forced to start having all these unwanted babies, they should receive no assistance from the government to help raise the children (because this devout lover of life doesn't give a tinker's damn about you once you leave the birth canal). Because, after all, the Bible says that at the end of the day, low taxes are more important than life. I'm sure HIS Bible (the one he has memorized in his own mind) says that, anyway.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. i wonder if isaac believes in state sponsored murder?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Good call...
As far as I have ever known or read, there is no asterisk after "Thou shalt not kill."

That could also work against the argument, I suppose, but then you would have to accept the idea that life exists prior to birth. I do believe the Bible says differently... that the soul is born at birth too... been a while... trying to find the scripture now.
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Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
19. Matthew 7
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207&version=NIV

^snip^


Matthew 7

Judging Others

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
22. Here's an interesting discussion of abortion vs. murder.
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/f/abortion_murder.htm

"Now consider the example of abortion. If a woman and her physician think they're killing a non-sentient organism, then--even if the embryo or fetus were, unbeknownst to them, a sentient human person--they would not be committing murder. At most, they would be guilty of involuntary manslaughter. But even involuntary manslaughter involves criminal negligence, and it would be very hard to judge someone criminally negligent for not personally believing that a pre-viable embryo or fetus is a sentient human person when we don't actually know this to be the case."

Tell Isaac that's why this country and its laws are secular and not based on religious beliefs.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. We are a secular nation and have no reason to follow the laws of fairy tales
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. I hardly ever bother with individuals like that...however...
If I'm feeling particularly pugnacious or something, I'll just tell the person it's none of his/her damned business.

I won't argue religion. I won't argue science or whether an embryo is a "person" at conception or 2 weeks or whatever.


Just..."It's a personal decision between a woman and her physician, and it's none of your business...period."

That usually takes the wind out of their sails and ends the "discussion".

;)



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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. K&R
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
26. Ask him what does The Lord doth hat mean
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