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Zombie Lie: Obama "Must" Defend/Appeal DADT, DOMA

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Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:14 PM
Original message
Zombie Lie: Obama "Must" Defend/Appeal DADT, DOMA
Source: Daily Kos
By Daily Kos user freelancewoman

Whenever gay civil rights issues hit the news, a zombie lie is resurrected: that although the Obama administration doesn't support their bigotry willingly, the Obama DOJ is (somehow) forced to defend the discriminatory Don't Ask Don't Tell policy and Defense of Marriage Act. And is also (for some reason) compelled to appeal the federal rulings that those laws are unconstitutional.

These zombie lies have popped up on Politico, but also, disturbingly, in the mainstream media, and from commenters on Daily Kos and other progressive sites.

Even more disturbing, it's a lie also perpetrated by the Obama administration.

Read more: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/10/13/909846/-ZOMBIE-LIE:-Obama-Must-Defend-Appeal-DADT,-DOMA
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. So the question remains: Why the doubletalk? nt
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Have vs want.
The administration has a law it does not like but is required to defend/enforce. The administration wants Congress to change the law.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Not actually "required" to defend. nt
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ahem.
The Judiciary Act of 1789, ch. 20, sec. 35, 1 Stat. 73, 92-93 (1789) created the Office of the Attorney General. Originally a one-person part-time position, the Attorney General was to be "learned in the law" with the duty "to prosecute and conduct all suits in the Supreme Court in which the United States shall be concerned,...


http://www.justice.gov/02organizations/about.html

Yes, it is their duty under the law to prosecute the law, even if they don't agree with it.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Ahem. Not if it's found unconstitutional
they have the legal prerogative to stop defending laws which have been found unconstitutional.
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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. And the courts have ruled.
Seriously, does every single damn case have to go to the SCOTUS? Clearly the AG can and does pick and choose which cases to pursue that far.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. They have ruled in contrary ways.
LCR v. United States is not the first DADT challenge brought in the federal courts; there have been others, and many of them failures. Is it your view that any court ruling anywhere, however many contrary rulings might exist, legitimate a refusal to defend federal law? Would you say the same about potential Tea Party challenges to federal social legislation?

These are not simple issues. There is a good case to be made that the Obama Administration should refuse to appeal the DADT ruling; I signed the petition stating as much. But this does not straightforwardly follow from "DADT is wrong and unconstitutional", and the Obama Administration's inevitable appeal does not indicate that it secretly supports DADT or is positively inclined toward anti-gay discrimination. (It might, however, at least if unaccompanied by a serious alternative effort to get rid of the law, indicate a failure of "fierce advocacy" on their part, but that's old news.)
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VMI Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Ahem.
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frederico Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Didn't President Obama oppose the Arizona anti-immigration law?
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:25 PM by frederico
If I am not mistaken.

Would the President defend the same law if it was a federal law instead?
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Maybe not the President, but the DOJ would defend it.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 05:32 PM by ManiacJoe
That is the job of the DOJ lawyers, to defend the laws passed by Congress.

The amount of effort put into it could be open for debate, but until Congress changes the law, the DOJ lawyers are stuck defending them until the courts rule the law unconstitutional.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. The DOJ challenged the Arizona law on the grounds that it interfered with federal law.
So there is no real parallel with a challenge to federal law.

If someone brought civil rights objections to a federal anti-immigration law, yes, the DOJ would probably defend it.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. K & R nt
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. You want to know what's actually disturbing? The fact that some here want to give the Presidency
the power to de facto repeal any law unilaterally. The fact that people are using logic that could just as equally say that a President Palin could unilaterally stop sending out Medicare checks for her entire term (since all she has to do is not defend Medicare's constitutionality against a right-wing plaintiff in the court of a right-wing judge). THAT'S what's scary.
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. he doesn't have to do jack shit..
quite literally. he is not repealing anything.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. k & r
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. This is a classic case of missing the forest for a handful of trees.
Edited on Wed Oct-13-10 06:07 PM by Unvanguard
It is true, of course, that ultimately the executive branch has some discretion over how it enforces and defends laws. It is true also that the Obama Administration is no exception to this, and has used its power to that effect (including with reference to gay rights issues, though not to the extent that many advocates hope). But it does not follow from this that there is no general obligation for the executive branch to enforce and defend federal law, or that the Obama Administration and everyone else should be comfortable with a simple refusal to defend or enforce anti-gay laws.

The obligation to "faithfully execute" laws passed by Congress is part of what makes the United States a democratic republic and not a dictatorship. It is not absolute, but it is important. We ought to be very hesitant about supporting executive attempts to undermine federal law, even if there is some precedent for it.

Furthermore, the evidence freelancewoman points to does not necessarily shed that much light on these specific cases. For instance:

1. It's true that appealing or not appealing is always a matter of discretion. But the fact that it is discretionary does not mean that absolutely any reason should be relevant. "We would just lose on appeal" is a good reason; "This limited loss does not interfere enough with public policy to be worth appealing" (presumably the logic of the Justice Department in Witt) is a good reason. "We like this outcome" is more dubious. The DOJ is supposed to represent the government of the United States, not the personal political views of the President of the United States.

2. It's true that not every single case ever brought against a federal law or policy has been defended by the DOJ. But exceptions do not disprove a rule; they only limit it. The rule here is not "The DOJ does not defend any federal law the president strongly dislikes"; the rule is, the DOJ does not defend a law when they can find no reasonable basis for defending it, a far narrower standard, and one also narrower than "if it is probably unconstitutional." A proper determination of a law or policy's unconstitutionality requires a full-throated litigation process and resolution by the judiciary, not by executive decree. In a society where numerous issues of constitutionality are controversial, letting the President's views always win out when it comes to federal law is a dangerous policy. What "no reasonable basis" usually involves is cases where there is clear-cut precedent militating against the law or policy: there is none as pertains to DADT or DOMA (indeed, if anything, most extant lower-court precedent at the moment is negative.) None of this is to say that presidents have not sometimes stretched this rule, or that Obama couldn't do the same. But it is a distortion to pretend that this is something about which the DOJ typically exercises policy-based discretion.

Furthermore, one thing not mentioned in the post is that generally the government only declined to defend the law or policy at the higher stages of litigation. In the two cases mentioned there I know something about, Dickerson v. United States and Metro Broadcasting v. FCC, they got all the way to the Supreme Court, and were defended there by other parties. Metro Broadcasting specifically involved an independent federal agency (the Federal Communications Commission), so it hardly is in the same category as a law the executive branch directly under the President is required to enforce. I don't think any of those, with the exception perhaps of the first, actually brought about a policy change without a Supreme Court ruling to that effect; that, however, is precisely what is sought with respect to DOMA and DADT.

3. Many of the times when the President simply refuses to obey the law, it is a matter of separation of powers, i.e. the President believes that a Congressional statute intrudes upon his or her constitutionally-protected powers. Other times, it is a means of preventing some harm while legislative slowness (rather than genuine substantive opposition) prevents Congress from acting--this was the justification for the widow's exception mentioned in the post you link to. Still other times, it is a matter of treaty obligations, which the President is also obliged to uphold. It is an area of legal dubiousness, and I don't know all that much about it, but I don't believe there's much precedent for an invalidation by executive order of a long-standing statute because it violates equal protection or free speech. Making some exceptions to a general statutory rule, or assigning enforcement priorities in a particular way, are not really equivalent.

I don't know how much legal justification there could be for refusing to appeal the DADT and DOMA rulings; I don't know if this is a topic on which there are clear answers. (For the record, my own view is that DADT needs to end within the next few months, one way or another, and if the administration cannot end it legislatively or by executive order, then they ought to not appeal. The DOMA rulings, on the other hand, should be appealed, because that is in the best interests of both parties.) Regardless, however, and importantly, it is simply not fair to suggest that a willingness to defend and appeal a statute is equivalent to a substantive agreement with that statute. There are good, principled reasons for supporting Congressional repeal rather than executive decree. Whether they suffice as a justification, in the midst of Congressional failure, is another question, but it is a distinct question from whether DOMA or DADT are good things, and disagreement on one does not entail disagrement on the other.
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The Philosopher Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-13-10 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. A reasonable argument
The opinion that the DOJ/EB must defend all federal statues is just that: an opinion. There's been at least one other AG opinion (later than the 1981 opinion) that the opposite is true, under certain conditions: one, that the President alerts Congress in a reasonable time and that the President can make a reasonable argument against defending a law passed by Congress.
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