If you don't understand why the words lifestyle choice are offensive

[dsc]

when used to describe gays, then you have no business at all, commenting on gay issues due to your utter ignorance of gay issues. Sorry but it really is that simple. Lifestyle choice is a favorite term of the anti gay right when it comes to discussing gays. If you don't know that, then you have no business commenting on gay issues.

[valerief]

1. I agree. Religion is a lifestyle choice. Sexual orientation is not. nt

[unblock]

18. religion is not entirely a lifestyle choice. hitler killed many xtians for having a jewish mother.

though this gets off-topic; the main point stands, sexual orientation is not a choice.

[valerief]

19. Genocidal dictators aside, religion is a lifestyle choice for adults.

If it wasn't a choice, we'd have to assume that religion was imposed on us.

[unblock]

24. haha!

genocidal dictators and many conservative & orthodox rabbis who won't accept converts, or at least put them through hell before they'll accept them....

my brother had a tough time finding a rabbi who would perform a marriage ceremony for him because, although our mother is jewish, he was adopted as an infant and his genetic mother couldn't be proven to be jewish, so many rabbis insisted that he "convert" to judaism first. to which my brother could only say, "convert from what?"

[hendo]

30. From Judaism of course ;)

[thereismore]

Calvinists actually believe that faith is imposed on us. It is a gift from God that

cannot be refused. I am being dead serious now.

[Deep13]

84. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. nt

[thereismore]

96. Faith is greater than wisdom.

:crazy:

[BrklynLiberal]

104. riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

:silly:

It is sad that there are so many to whom they are mutually exclusive. There are some who have faith, and yet can still be wise.
I am not among them, having neither faith nor wisdom.


I guess it is not having faith, but how one uses it, and allows oneself to be used by it, that makes the difference.

[ooglymoogly]

113. Faith without foundation is anathema to wisdom. nt

[axollot]

128. True, in the US religion really does get a 'free pass' as it does in a free society.

Religion in general is not a given at birth except through a family's culture. In the US kids grow up to choose or not. Sometimes the reason for choosing to stay with a religion can be the same as choosing to stay in the closet.
You're afraid of losing your (asshole) family if you leave your faith or come out. Except we have a long way to go so the fear of losing a job etc for being gay is no longer a real problem, still condoned by far to many in this country.

Cheers
sandy

[lapislzi]

56. Bit early in the thread to invoke Godwin's Law...n/t

[MsPithy]

95. I think we should change "Godwin's Law" to

"Rich Iott's perfectly acceptable opportunity to bond with his son's Law." Too long?

[unpossibles]

112. nope - if it actually pertains to the discussion it's not Godwin's Law nt

[ZombieHorde]

75. Having a Jewish mother does not mean your religion is Judaism.

Having a Jewish mother simply means your ethnicity is at least 1/2 Jewish.

[thereismore]

79. Tell that to the Nazis who had the "purity" of "race" in mind. nt

[ZombieHorde]

92. I don't use the Nazi's as a source of information on the subjects of religion or ethnicity.

However, the Nazis are a great source of information on the subjects of torture and loosing wars.

[thereismore]

98. Sure. I was just saying that the Nazis had a completely different frame of mind from you and me. nt

[WinkyDink]

108. It means, to Jews, that you are Jewish. Judaism is from the mother.

[Deep13]

86. But they were Christians nonetheless.

I don't think anyone here would suppose that Hitler has the power to assign people's religion for them.

[unblock]

93. but many conservatives and orthodox jews (rabbis in particular) think similarly on this point

there are certainly plenty who think that if you have a jewish mother, you are jewish whether you're a "good jew" or a "bad jews".

some think if you have a jewish mother but believe in jesus, you are a "messianic jew".

note that few rabbis would require a conversion to judaism if your birth mother is jewish, even if you've spent years claiming to be of another religion and even practicing that other religion.

note that judaism is not like other modern religions in this respect; it is a tribal religion, not faith religion.

[WinkyDink]

107. Then they were Jews who chose to become Christian.

[AtheistCrusader]

116. I didn't know Judaism was hereditary.

[AtheistCrusader]

115. Killing them didn't impose judaism on them either.

They died christians, falsely accused of being jews.

Killed by assholes.

[unblock]

136. not quite. they died because they were born of jewish mothers

which meant (not just to hitler) that they WERE jewish. many rabbis share this view.

christianity does not have this concept, it is strictly a religion of faith/choice, but NOT ALL RELIGIONS ARE LIKE THAT.

this is how there can be "jewish atheists", (like me). "christian atheist" is a contradiction in terms, but "jewish atheist" is not. my religion and my metaphysical beliefs (or lack thereof) are distinct matters.

[BlueCheese]

29. I agree with the OP...

Just wanted to say that immediately. What Valerie Jarrett said was astonishing in its apparent obliviousness.

Not to go off-topic, but the contrast of religion and sexuality is an interesting one. I think for most people their religion or their lack of religion is no longer their choice--a Christian can't stop believing in God, and an atheist can't start. In that sense, they are a little similar in that both are fundamental to a person's identity, and both are beyond the ability of a person to change.

Members of persecuted religious groups probably have a similar thought process to that of gays in that sense--they know their lives would be easier if they went with the majority, but it's not really something they have control over. It's part of who they are. And of course, even if they could change, they might not want to.

[valerief]

32. I selected religion, because it's the religious zealots who obstruct

homosexuals' civil rights, claiming homosexuality is against their god.

And I think religion is a lifestyle choice. Some people are trapped in a religious culture and want to escape--and they do! Some don't.

As for the reverse, I guess it happens, but most often it's probably just people who exploit religion for financial gain. So they appear to have become religious when they're just charlatans.

[BlueCheese]

38. I think religion is a choice too...

... in that I don't think people are born religious, or are destined to follow one religion or another.

But once you become a true believer, or non-believer, whether through upbringing or whatever, it's probably out of your hands. Things might happen to cause you to lose your faith, or gain a faith, but those probably aren't within your control either.

Not that I have a bigger point--just idle conversation here...

[valerief]

41. I know. People get brainwashed about all kinds of things. The religion

in their culture is one of those things. When I was younger, everyone smoked. Everywhere. There was no escape. It was the norm, and we were brainwashed of its benefits (mostly social). Our ability to be brainwashed is what allows us to bond with one another. It's just that when brainwashing trumps reason and it has the power to be detrimental, it's not a good thing. Like those folks with genes that fight malaria but also make them more prone to sickle cell anemia. Well, not like that. I think I'm tired.

Idle conversation, too, here.

[cleanhippie]

68. It is never "out of their hands".

We ALWAYS have the choice to reject the irrational.

[Moonwalk]

130. Deleted.

Duplicate. Deleted.

[Moonwalk]

131. I'm sorry, but Religion is a choice, especially as compared to gender orientation....

You say, "a Christian can't stop believing in God, and an atheist can't start. In that sense, they are a little similar in that both are fundamental to a person's identity, and both are beyond the ability of a person to change." Yet many Atheists were Christians (and several other religions) and "lost" their faith. They did believe in something for however long, and often believed in it quite sincerely and strongly. You can lose or change religions. I've read many, many articles by people telling their story of how they very religious they were as Mormons, Baptists, Jews, whatever...and then they walked away from that religion. Sometimes to another, sometimes to become atheists.

And I've read many, many articles by people who went the other way. They were un-religious, ambivalent or even atheist and "found god."

This was a choice. A decision they made. It might have been emotional, or it might have been well reasoned, it might have been based on some mystical experience (or lack there of). It might have happened suddenly, or it might have happened over many years. But not for a minute should we doubt that they were sincere in what they originally believed before they decided it wasn't true for them. And they could no longer go on believing it.

That not at all the same as YOU saying that you're attracted to men/women and want to have sex with that particular gender. You can say you don't want to be attracted to that gender, that it makes no sense, even that you hate it or can't believe in it...will any of that stop you from having that sexual attraction? Not likely. This is BIOLOGY. Yet you can say, "I have decided that god makes no sense and I no longer believe in him..." or "I have decided that god makes sense to me and I am going to believe in him in this particular way." That is THEOLOGY. The two are not the same.

Religion and belief in a deity is ABSOLUTELY within a person's ability to change. If it wasn't, then there'd be no point in missionaries knocking on people's doors or heading off to China or Africa to try and convert people. And no religion would be scared of Atheists for fear that they'd argue people out of a belief in god. It is NOT there from birth. Gender orientation is there from birth. You may think you'll never change your belief in god and you may, indeed, never change it...but it could happen. Whether you're attracted to men or women is not likely to change, not from birth till death. Not even if you want it to.

[MyUncle]

142. "Religion is a lifestyle choice. Sexual orientation is not.":

I totally respect people who with few words can state something so right and so profound.

[Brickbat]

2. I'm hoping you're talking only about Valerie Jarrett.

But I fear people here still might not get it, either.

[VMI Dem]

4. Oh no. Its getting the full defense. It was only a poor choice of words after all.

[gateley]

9. That's disturbing. nt

[sandnsea]

14. Valerie Jarrett said "lifestyle choice"????

Oh good gravy. When was this and why.

[pintobean]

21. Great avatar!

[Brickbat]

27. Yup. Right here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9310491&mesg_id=9310491

[VMI Dem]

3. Amen. I can't decide if its simple stupidity, ignorance or agreement with the term.

[JerseygirlCT]

8. Perhaps a stew of all of the above. nt

[Catherina]

16. All of the above. Hence the Administration's knuckle dragging for fear of offending

those exact same people (the stupid, the ignorant and those who agree with that offensive language).

[Behind the Aegis]

5. As annoying as those who still use "sexual preference" instead of sexual orientation.

Words matter.

[The Doctor.]

59. It can be applied in the case of Bi-leaning one way or another.

Every Bisexual man or woman I've know had at least a marginal preference. That's another type of orientation by itself.

[Behind the Aegis]

89. How so?

Every bisexual man or woman is attracted more or less strongly to the same or other sex, it still does not come down to preference.

[The Doctor.]

121. I'm not speaking of preference as necessarily a choice.

'I'm Bi, and I prefer women' is as much a statement of nature. 'Preference' does not always mean 'choice', while 'choice' nearly always indicates a form of preference.

I really have to stop commenting in threads where everyone is itching for an argument.

[Behind the Aegis]

122. Ok, I can see what you are saying.

[gateley]

6. I think (hope) most of us realize how offensive that really is.

I feel I don't have any business commenting on gay issues since I'm not gay (except to express my rage and heartbreak at the current, continuing state of affairs), but I DO feel I can be shocked and dismayed by her use of this term and that's why I posted elsewhere I think she should be fired.

[JerseygirlCT]

7. I misread the title of your post

and was stunned that you didn't understand why people had a problem with "lifestyle choice". I was about to ever so kindly explain to you why I find it so offensive.

Whew. Glad I read that wrong!

:toast:

[Starry Messenger]

10. Ignorant self-appointed experts are a big problem here.

It's always amazing to me how many people declare something to be totally true and you realize they don't have the first fucking clue. You'd think they'd feel some shame at the possibility that their ass might be showing. But no. Goth is a lifestyle choice, being gay is not. Declaring otherwise makes you look like a stupid fucking ass.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. Bingo!

Have to 'disagree' with this, sort of, "You'd think they'd feel some shame at the possibility that their ass might be showing."

How can they know their ass is showing when it is quite obvious their head is planted firmly inside it?! :shrug:

;)

:hug:

[Starry Messenger]

48. lol!

You make an excellent point, my friend! :hug:

[EFerrari]

11. There's no one here who doesn't understand why that is offensive.

And even if there is a newbie or two, that's no reason to ratchet the discussion down to the lowest common denominator. None whatsoever. People don't come to DU to access a wormhole to the 1970s.

[glitch]

22. !

:spray: even though it's not a funny topic,

"People don't come to DU to access a wormhole to the 1970s." priceless.

[EFerrari]

26. What do you call this kind of humor?

My nephew died of AIDS in the 70s. He was in the early wave. I was in city hall when Harvey was killed. My poetry mentor came out in the 70s. You can't swing a cat around here without bumping into gay history. Not that anyone should do that to a cat. For Tre, Harvey, Thom and Andy. I love you guys.









And of course, there was Andy.

[hendo]

31. I don't think it was meant that way.

Sorry for your loss though.

[EFerrari]

34. Hey, thank you, hendo.

:)

[hendo]

37. Sorry that I am almost 40 years belated :(

[glitch]

57. Thank you hendo for saying it for me, I wasn't here to say it. nt

[hendo]

62. No problem!

Everyone is on edge lately, and people tend to be misinterpreted because of it.

[glitch]

63. These are tense times. I need to be more forgiving myself. Thanks for the reminder. :) nt

[glitch]

58. I took your line completely wrong, obviously I am sorry for yours and all of our losses from

hatred, bigotry, prejudice and AIDS. I didn't associate your line with that history. It's hard to tell what lies behind a single line.
I don't think we communicate that well, EFerrari, even though we agree on probably every topic. That is a shame.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. The intended audience seems absent in this and the other thread on this crap

K&R

[EFerrari]

28. At bottom, it just doesn't matter.

The GLBT community have put on the most successful civil rights movement since 1968. It's details from here on and you, my friend, were there.

[Ignis]

72. Turn on the light, and the cockroaches scatter.

[muffin1]

123. +1,000,000

:yourock:

[Catherina]

13. +100000! It's not a lifestyle, not a style, not a choice. It's LIFE. Rec'd n/t

[riderinthestorm]

35. +another 1000000. Jarretts words were a dog whistle that was clearly heard. nt

[me b zola]

15. K&R

[leftstreet]

17. K&R

[Rex]

20. For those that don't understand it is simple

being gay is not a choice, being a republican is a lifestyle choice and a horrible one at that.

[Solly Mack]

23. People can choose their words - and the words chosen can reflect

a bias, either easily spotted or subtle. Word choice in describing groups of people is indicative of how the person thinks of that group of people.

'Those people'
'Lifestyle choice'
'Feminazi'

The use of 'lifestyle choice' in relation to being gay was ALWAYS the bigots way of saying a choice was made to be different from the 'normal' people. It implies that being gay is a choice. It's a twofer, really. Gay being a 'Lifestyle' choice - what does that even mean? It has no meaning other than all the bullshit stereotypes used by bigots. 'Choice' - like a person just woke up one day and decided to be gay.

Being gay isn't being different - it's just another way of being. Unless you think of straight as being the normal way, as being the right way, as being the proper way - all phrases that indicate being gay as being somehow less.

Speaking of choice...

The GLBT community doesn't choose to be discriminated against...doesn't choose to be abused and attacked...doesn't choose to be murdered - that's the choice of bigots.

[DURHAM D]

25. So the first half of Rachel's show tonight was on DADT.

She concluded by calling out Obama for his false assertion that he has a "plan" for ending DADT. She seemed a little beyond pissed.

So I tuned into DU to check out all the threads on Rachel finally saying what needed to be said - but nothin. Crickets.

Everyone knows the "plan" is a lie but no one in the media or on DU will actually say it.

[hendo]

33. There were a couple threads on that earlier today actually ;) NT

[Jankyn]

74. I get your point, Durham...

...but there were a couple of threads earlier on.

And here's my observation. I think that DADT has been upfront on policy precisely BECAUSE there are now gay people in positions of (relative) power to bring it to the top of the discussion. Can you imagine the coverage, even on a cable news show, of things like Uganda's "kill the gays bill," homophobes in high places, and DADT, if Rachel wasn't doing it? It wouldn't exist. Without a gay person to bring it up, such news is only in the gay media or the very back pages of the mainstream media.

And in case anyone missed it, both her interview segment and her final comment last night were fantastic. You can be sure SHE'LL call out anyone who says being gay is a "lifestyle choice."

[CreekDog]

36. It's not a lifestyle or a choice

she thinks a 15-year old has chosen a "lifestyle"?

[lightningandsnow]

39. Rec'd.

[donheld]

40. Totally agree

[hfojvt]

42. Well there is an explanation that provides no information

except that apparently some people want other people to shut up. I am gonna go out on a limb and guess that such an approach does not help to win people to your cause.

[REP]

43. Condo or house, downtown or suburbs - those are "lifestyle choices;" not one's sexuality

Duh. Even if sexuality was a matter of free choice - which I do not think think it is - it still wouldn't be a "lifestyle choice." "Lifestyle" is one of the most meaningless words in the language anyway; an ugly neologism.

[Prophet 451]

44. "lifestyle choice"

I don't drive. That's a lifestyle choice. Being attracted to guys or girls (or both, in my case) isn't.

[WCGreen]

46. Totally agree....

Sexuality and the attraction that it drives is no more controllable or mysterious or chosen than hunger...

It is an essential part of being human.

[Initech]

47. I bring up a great George Carlin quote on the issue:

"You know what a moronic term "lifestyle" is? Consider this: Attila the Hun had an active outdoor lifestyle!"

[Lorien]

49. If it were a "lifestyle choice" I would have chosen to be a lesbian

sadly, that's not a choice that I get to have. :-(

[Radical Activist]

50. Absolutely.

That's pretty obvious.

I didn't read the entire thread but I didn't see anyone argue that it was acceptable for her to use that phrase.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pecwae]

52. Then read it.

[Catherina]

54. Totally brazen n/t

[dsc]

106. Here is what you said

The comment in context
might not stoke as much outrage. So it wasn't posted. She made a poor choice of words. People can decide from themselves how outraged they want to be over Jarrett trying to bring more attention to the need to stop bullying against gay teens.


Capeheart: One of the things you've put a spotlight on, and to veer sharply away from infrastructure, and that was on the rash of suicides of gay youth. You gave a speech to the Human Rights Campaign annual dinner, where you named the victims. You talked about the President's committment to making a more inclusive, tolerant, accepting country. Why did you feel it was important to deliver that message, and deliver it there?

Jarrett: Well, I think what we've seen over the last few months are some very tragic deaths of young people, our children. And avoidable deaths. They were driven to committ suicide because they were being harassed in school, and driven to do something that no child should ever be driven to do. And in many cases, the parents are doing a good job. Their families are supportive. Before I spoke at the HRC dinner, I met backstage with Tammy Aarberg, her son Andrew. These are good people. They were aware that their son was gay. They embraced him. They loved him. They supported his lifestyle choice.

But yet when he left the home & he went to school, he was tortured by his classmates. What the President asked me to do was to go and deliver his message that this is an issue that's important and it needs to be addressed now. We've got to stop condoning this in the school, and acting like this is a rite of passage or something that we can't do anything about. My goal that evening was to really put a spotlight on the issue, to highlight it and make it very personal. So that people would understand, as a Mom, I wasn't there just as a Senior Adviser to the President. I was there as a Mom who has a daughter who I want to grow up in a country that really symbolizes the "more perfect union," where we are inclusive, where we are tolerant, where we appreciate our differences. And part of what makes us so strong is that we are a diverse country and that we should be setting an example for our children of civility & tolerance, and we should put a stop to all of this bullying that's going on in the schools that's causing these needless, needless deaths of our youth.


end of quote

You called the OP a liar for not linking the whole phrase, though they did. Then you said, it wasn't worthy of outrage.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Radical Activist]

119. I guess I'm not allowed to defend myself against false accusation

because my posts keep getting deleted. What you posted is not an approval of her words. I wrote that it was stupid, wrong, and offensive multiple times in that thread.

[Ignis]

124. Here, I'll do you a mitzvah:

Read these two sections from the DU rules:

Do not call another member of this message board a liar, and do not call another member's post a lie. You are, of course, permitted to point out when a post is untrue or factually incorrect.

There are no exceptions to these civility rules. You cannot attack someone because they attacked you first, or because that person "deserved it," or because you think someone is a disruptor. We consider it a personal attack to call a liar a liar, to call a moron a moron, or to call a jerk a jerk.

Deleted posts should really be appended with a note explaining why they were deleted, IMHO. But I don't make the rules, nor do I set moderation guidelines.

[PVnRT]

53. K&R

[TexasObserver]

55. Agreed. It's very uninformed, and it's very wrong.

She should be fired over it, but she won't be. That kind of anti gay thinking is far too common in the president's inner circle.

Now we know Valerie Jarrett should never have any position of power.

She can't possibly be that stupid. She knew what she was saying.

What is her problem?

[The Doctor.]

60. I just ask them how and when they 'chose' their own 'lifestyle'.

That usually works.

[rusty fender]

61. If the term, "lifestyle choice," comes out of your mouth

when referring to GLBTs, especially if you are an adviser to the POTUS, and especially in the course of an interview on the record, YOU ARE A FUCKING BIGOT!:wtf: :puke:

[HughMoran]

64. I had to correct my teen daughter on this recently

Her group at school finds it fashionable to hang with the gay students (yes, our future generations will make the current batch of old white bigots look absurd). One misconception she has (had) though was that the gay/lesbian kids chose that orientation. I told her (in no uncertain terms) that not only was that not true (explained how people are born into their orientation) but that even expressing that opinion is offensive. I will not put up with the spreading of this BS in my household.

[JTFrog]

65. It is most definitly not a lifestyle choice and I'm very happy to see she apologized for this. n/t

[Hell Hath No Fury]

66. I wonder if Valerie would bristtle --

if someone called her "articulate". Same dog-whistle tactics.

[Myrina]

69. "Uppity"

... would cause all sorts of teeth gnashing both inside the Admin and here on DU and other boards.

Nearly every day, this Administration does or says something (or back lack of action, implies) that proves they are completely out of touch with and uninterested in the people that got them elected.

[CBR]

80. I seem to recall when a certain politician referred to another

as clean and articulate. Then they ended up on the same ticket.

[Fire1]

105. Politics makes strange bed fellows. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

67. Jarrett makes Imus look soft spoken

The idea of coming out with language like that, taken intentionally from the ex-gay churches that have far too much connection to her political circle is just revolting. The best possible framing of Jarrett is that she is failing to deliver what she is paid to do. She cashes the checks, goes to the parties, but clearly, and without question, she is not doing the work required. Like the rest of the WH 'communications team' she is no good at that which she takes taxpayer money to do. She takes gay dollars and then insults us.

[krispos42]

70. I don't understand why

I was born to parents of African decent, but I chose to be of German, Italian, English, and Cherokee extraction.

:shrug:

[Ignis]

71. K&R

Can you believe you're reading those apologias on DU? Very revealing.

[kirby]

73. She has just apologized...

Jarrett, in an e-mail to Capehart, said that she “misspoke” when she described Aaberg’s sexual identity as a lifestyle choice.

“I meant no disrespect to the LGBT community, and I apologize to any who have taken offense at my poor choice of words,” Jarrett said. “Sexual orientation and gender identity are not a choice, and anyone who knows me and my work over the years knows that I am a firm believer and supporter in the rights of LGBT Americans.”

[AtheistCrusader]

110. "I apologize to anyone who may have taken offense...."

The non-apology, last refuge of an asshole that isn't apologizing.

[liberation]

140. Wow, she even apologized like a republican with that "I am sorry you were offended..." non-apology

Well, I am glad that in this great country of ours, an African-American Dem woman can grow up to use the same whistle and playbook as a WASP Repug man. Yay for bipartisansippiness!!!!

Amazing how an administration whose main (if only) asset is rhetoric, can be so fundamentally tone deaf.

[Enthusiast]

76. K&R

It really is that simple. Right on!

[nahant]

77. Life Style Choice

As for gay being a “life style” that is just so much gobbly gook. There is just way too much evidence though out Mother Nature’s Realm of same sex sex, No matter where you look the evidence is there.
So all you HomoPhobes get yer heads out of your collective asses and accept “Being Gay” is not a choice and that every one of them were gay at birth. And I am sure they had a hell of time coming to grips with it in our prejudiced society as they grew up.
Remember they are our brothers and sisters who need our love, understanding and friendship.

[obxhead]

78. To say being gay is a lifestyle choice is to say

that anyone opposed to that choice made a conscious choice to not be gay. It's a two way street, yet any rabid GLBT basher will tell you it was not a choice for them.

The problem with these people is not their choice or their words. It's the fact that they are beyond batshit crazy and are too stupid to realize that.

[xchrom]

81. Recommend

[closeupready]

82. Agreed. K&R

n/t

[Love Bug]

83. Choice is for reproductive rights, not for sexual orientation!

[Deep13]

85. Being left handed is a lifestyle choice.

God hates southpaws!

[treestar]

87. If the person doesn't know that, how do they know they don't have the right to comment?

what's the good of creating an exclusive club? How does it help in the struggle for full civil rights?

How do you educate people? By refusing to forgive them if they slip up? That helps?

It's like people complaining Obama is crapping on the base by saying this or that. Why crap on people who may not know much but could be sympathetic?

[superduperfarleft]

88. Ignorance of gay issues never stopped people here from commenting on them before.

Why stop now?

[Scruffy1]

91. Amen, brother

I've never understood Americans obsession with sex and personality. Maybe because I grew up in places so tiny we were glad to have anyone at all I just never cared whether my friends were Indian, black, white, LGBT, or whatever. I do no that we need all the friends that we get and that beggars can't be choosers. Besides I think sexual orientation is really a matter of degree, not kind.

All of my life I always fill in the blank where it says sex with YES!

[QC]

114. Around here, ignorance of gay issues is plus.

Only male heterosexuals, preferably white ones, are truly qualified to say whether something is homophobic.

[mudplanet]

90. If someone thinks that what he is aroused by is a "lifestyle choice" then

I seriously question both his intelligence and whether he is being honest with himself about his sexuality.

[Life Long Dem]

94. I don't feel ignorance is the same as being anti gay.

You can believe it is a choice, and not be against this choice of being gay. It's ignorance and nothing more.

[DainBramaged]

97. Could I compare that phrase to this one (regarding Christians)?

"The religious wackos are gathering but they must not be allowed to claim this one"

[liberation]

117. No, because what you are pushing is a false analogy... and a very cheap fallacy at that

a) that has been said by anonymous posters on an anonymous internet forum, not by an administration official speaking as such publicly.
b) Ironically, religion is actually a lifestyle choice: you get to choose wether you believe on an invisible friend up in the skies who has a double plus secret plan for all creation, or if the seas are ruled by some bearded dude with great lung capacity and an awesome trident that shoots laser beams, or if your life has to be ruled by a bunch of random suggestions carved into pieces of stone, or whatever fairy tale that suits your fancy to explain your life and relinquish the burden of self awareness.


But by all means, don't let pass the opportunity to exploit a tragedy to make it all about you, because you are the victim no matter what. Poor christians... Especially when it pertains about the tragic death of a teen, who killed himself because he was constantly barraged with hate because his sexual orientation dared not comply with Judeo-Christian dogma. It takes balls... it really does.

[DainBramaged]

118. Is the answer Jesus?

:eyes:

By all means, don't let pass the opportunity to exploit a tragedy. Why don't you call the White House instead of spewing on DU, NO ONE IN WASHINGTON listens to us or reads what we write, we are the whiny Left.


Buhbye once more.

[liberation]

120. So I said "potato" and you replied with "appletiny"

I would like to know if you were replying to my previous comment in which case I have to beg the question what the f*ck does your response have to do with my post, or you have your own particular discussion going on inside your head... in which case, carry on.

I can see where you got the idea for your nickname... LOL.

[DainBramaged]

143. Your perception of my 'choice' to believe in a God is repulsive

And I should support you and your way of life while it's OK for you to skewer mine?


Hypocrisy, the blood of DU.


Goodbye, you truly are pathetic.

[LaurenG]

99. People suck, mean ignorant people suck even more. K&R nt

[TBF]

100. K&R in solidarity. nt

[Hamlette]

101. why should it be offensive? Shouldn't you get equal rights even if it is a LC? n/t

[Fire1]

102. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's because it simply is not a

choice. It's innately something one is born with or without.

[BrklynLiberal]

103. K&R

[AtheistCrusader]

109. It's because it's not a choice.

Anymore than I "choose" to be attracted to brunettes about my age, and height. It's an innate preference. I have no control over it. It's not a conscious decision.

The religious generally refer to this sort of preference as a 'calling', so by all means, throw that 'it's a calling not a choice' thing back in their un-loving, un-christian faces.

[Eyerish]

125. K&R

In Solidarity!

[axollot]

126. I'm straight and it's more offensive than any other IMHO. My teen son hasnt chosen anything..

...he was 3 when *I* knew and he's the one that beats himself up over it. I'm glad I was aware - he was once very flamboyant as a kid that our entire family and friends have always known and supported him. Kids want to do what they hear or think is 'normal' because they want to fit in. If 'normal' is a family and wife they think they want it too or that something is wrong with them for feeling 'different'. When there is no normal. He wants to be a father (natural to want to be a parent for some) my straight eldest son has zero interest in being a father. I just want them happy and for life to not be any harder than it already is even if bigotry didnt exsist.

Parents that disown their children over their sexuality, pick on them, make offensive jokes towards them are the lowest of the low. Like picking on your disabled child. WTF? Born that way. What kind of parent (family, culture) would think that's OK?

Cheers
sandy

[Overseas]

127. K&R! I was shocked to hear her words. //nt

[meowomon]

129. It is genetic

I knew practically from the womb. Even my born again Christian right-wing Dad is on board with it.(thanks to my wonderful stepmom, Becky) He always knew I was "different", but until I came out, he didn't know. My mom did though. She always knew it about me, she just prayed for me to change. LOL

I didn't choose this, but, if I could choose, I would choose to be gay. I just love me some butch women!!!!!!

[Major Hogwash]

132. Or, if you've been living in a cave for the last 10 years and you don't understand that it is not a

matter of being "a choice", then you might not work in an official position for a President who considers himself to be "a liberal".
Because all you are going to do is reinforce the concept that you might be a redneck.

*Cue the Jeff Foxworthy-type redneck jokes*

If you think that when a small boy is abused by every other kid at grade school the day after they all started their whispering campaign about him out on the playground telling everyone else that he was a queer was "a choice" that he made, you just might be a redneck.

If you think that it is funny to tell a young boy that he should learn to share and that it is someone else's turn to carry the ball when the boys play 'smear the queer' on the playground, you just might be a redneck.

If you think it is 'normal' when other boys in class ask if they think it is odd 'that one boy' knows so much about makeup, you just might be a redneck.

If you think that the boy who was just beat up in the locker room in the 7th grade because the other boys thought he was gay, and that he will 'get over it' when he is older, you just might be a redneck.

If you still think it is a "lifestyle choice" to be gay after you graduate from high school, you just might be a redneck.

[McCamy Taylor]

133. Some people think we have a choice. Be true to ourselves or live a lie.

I guess you could call it a choice . The same way we have a choice about eating or starving to death.

[CLANG]

134. I've never had a problem appreciating the beauty of people and love.

It's an opened armed embrace. People should never be categorized.

[live love laugh]

135. So allow people to get educated. Being gay is nothing new but the acceptance of gays is new

and if people make mistakes as acceptance is gained, allow them that.

Gays have made great strides in recent years. I believe that taking offense at what seems like every slight detracts from the gains.

And for the record, I have a much loved teenage niece who is gay so I am not unsympathetic--but I grow weary of the complaints.

[liberation]

141. LOL...

... here comes the old "I know a black person so I am not racist, but those uppity ni........." line of reasoning, I was wondering when it would show up.

[Martin Eden]

137. Sharon Underwood's LTTE in 2000 is worth repeating here

This is a relavent quote from the letter she wrote about the abuse her gay son had to endure:

At the core of all your misguided beliefs is the belief that this could never happen to you, that there is some kind of subculture out there that people have chosen to join. The fact is that if it can happen to my family, it can happen to yours, and you won't get to choose. Whether it is genetic or whether something occurs during a critical time of fetal development, I don’t know. I can only tell you with an absolute certainty that it is inborn.

If you want to tout your own morality, you’d best come up with something more substantive than your heterosexuality. You did nothing to earn it; it was given to you. If you disagree, I would be interested in hearing your story, because my own heterosexuality was a blessing I received with no effort whatsoever on my part. It is so woven into the very soul of me that nothing could ever change it. For those of you who reduce sexual orientation to a simple choice, a character issue, a bad habit or something that can be changed by a 10-step program, I’m puzzled. Are you saying that your own sexual orientation is nothing more than something you have chosen, that you could change it at will? If that's not the case, then why would you suggest that someone else can?

To read the entire letter:
http://ptt-blog.blogspot.com/2008/09/sharon-underwoods-message.html

[The Green Manalishi]

138. K&R

Exactly as offensive as the 'N' word or 'C' word: anyone stupid enough to even think it should be way the hell away from anything resembling the corridors of power.
Either one believes in full GL:BT rights or one is a homophobe. No more room for middle ground than if someone supported segregation or taking rights from women. Some things are so repugnant that vilification as an example is the only appropriate response. The mindset that anything about this young man's life or death had anything to do with a "lifestyle choice" is tacit justification for and excuse of violent harassment.

[David Zephyr]

139. Well, I am honored to K&R this O.P.

Can't add a word to it. Thank you for saying it.

What happened was inexcusable.