I can't wait for charter schools to replace public shools.

[callous taoboy]

Then charter schools will get over-crowded, budgets will get cut, unreasonable demands will be heaped on them, many of the ones in impoverished areas will be deemed "unacceptable" when compared to those in wealthier areas, there will be a growing suspicion that it is all the result of those crappy teachers, then charters will be replaced by......

PUBLIC SCHOOL.

Gotta love it.

[blondeatlast]

1. Just force charter schools to not discriminate and that day will come within

a few years, if not sooner.

Amen (as in, "so be it!")

[kirby]

24. Don't most admit by lottery?

How much more 'random' and non-discriminatory can you be?

[MattBaggins]

28. Selective attrition and counseling out are so called "public" charter

schools terms people should familiarize themselves with.

[Statistical]

49. And proof of this claim? n/t

[crazyjoe]

43. what are you saying? that minories bring down the school????

[Catshrink]

45. They "counsel out" sped kids and ELL kids.

[mzteris]

71. you might want to read something about this misperception:

Charters & special ed: the truth: Don't believe the UFT's distorted claims
By Marcus Winters
Wednesday, January 6th 2010, 4:00 AM

"It's true that a lower proportion of charter school students are in special education relative to the surrounding public schools. However, the reasons for the special education gap are nuanced and are not primarily driven by the charters' bad behavior. In fact, the lower percentages of special education students in charters may actually be a sign of what they're doing right.

First, let's dispel a myth. Disabled students who seek a seat in a charter school are not systematically denied access to it. According to the recent landmark study by Stanford economist Caroline Hoxby, when students who have already been diagnosed as disabled enter a charter school lottery, they are just as likely as other students to win a seat; among those who win a seat, disabled kids are just as likely to enroll, and among those who enroll, special education students are no more likely to return to a traditional public school.

That leaves two potential explanations for the special education gap: Either disabled students choose not to apply to attend charters, or students who would have been placed in special education by their public school avoid the diagnosis when they attend a charter school. A close look at special education rates by grade level in New York City provides some clues that differences in the rate of diagnosis play a major role.

Let's start with kindergarten, the grade when about a third of charter schools' eventual students enroll. In this early grade, before the schools themselves have had the opportunity to diagnose students, the difference in special education enrollments between public schools (11.2%) and charters (7.6%) is relatively small.

This gap grows as students proceed through elementary school and reaches its zenith in the fourth grade, when 17.3% of public school students are in special ed, compared with only 10.4% of charter school students.

Interestingly, this is a time when relatively few new students enter charter schools, suggesting that the biggest difference between public and charter schools is the rate at which they classify already-enrolled students as disabled.

That the rate of new classifications appears to be lower in charter schools is particularly interesting given that charter school applicants tend to be minority, low-income and low-scoring on standardized tests - all attributes that typically correlate with special education placement. Charter schools would need to be pretty crafty to discourage only the applications of undiagnosed students with these characteristics who will be diagnosed in a later grade.

Why might new diagnoses differ in public and charter schools? Research suggests that overdiagnosis of disabilities is rampant in public schools. Charter schools may not be as willing to push a borderline student into special education. Or perhaps charter schools provide these students with a good enough education that their performance doesn't lag to the point that the school feels compelled to place them in special education.

The special education gap rapidly declines after the fourth grade, as new students begin to enter charter middle schools. By the 10th grade, the gap actually reverses. By their senior year, 15.2% of charter school students are in special education, compared with 9.8% of public school students. We should be wary of drawing firm conclusions - but a reasonable preliminary interpretation is that while special education students are dropping out of public schools, their charter school counterparts may be sticking around to graduate.

Where charter schools do seem to fall behind is in the enrollment of severely disabled students. They need to do better to ensure that their schools are open to these more severely disabled kids - but some of the disparity exists simply because charter schools, like small traditional public schools, lack the wide range of specialized services that larger schools are equipped to offer.

The differences in special education rates between public and charter schools are not primarily the result of nefarious forces. The available evidence gives no reason for the state Legislature to add burdensome restrictions for charter schools.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/01/06/2010-01-06_charters__special_ed_the_truth.html?page=1#ixzz12ZLy3Er5

clean up link.

[Demeter]

2. Meanwhile...how many MORE generations do we lose to ignorance?

It's maddening.

[WinkyDink]

3. No chance of "overcrowding;" Charters can place children on waiting-lists.

[joeybee12]

4. And they'll be public school teachers re-hired, non-union now, because that

was largely the intent of charter schools anyway.

[Dappleganger]

5. I'm tired of our children being used as guinea pigs.

As a parent that just makes me SICK.

[Statistical]

50. Isn't a child in a failing district school also being used a guinea pig?

Shouldn't and poor parent have the right to put their kid into a better school? Or at least get a shot at a lottery because waiting lists for charter schools tends to be far more than max enrollment?

I mean a rich parent facing a failing school district has two options
a) keep kid in public school
b) put kid into private school

So rich parents already have the option to "opt out" of failing schools. Poor parents not so much. Charters gives them a choice. Nobody is forced to go to a charter school. Hell roughly half the people who want to can't due to more demand than available seats.

[mzteris]

72. you don't want your child in a charter,

don't apply to one.

[texastoast]

6. Charter schools are NOT a product of American ingenuity

But they are a product of American greed.

[Deep13]

11. Don't forget stupidity.

The uninformed public is happy to endorse anything if it is packaged right.

[OZark Dem]

7. I don't understand Charter Schools

Is it for profit?
Non Union teachers?
What is so special about them that has creeps like Jeb Bush so excited & supportive

[Smarmie Doofus]

13. Good point re. Bush. Paladino loves 'em too.

Stands to reason, then, that it's a really fair, progressive, honest concept.

Cetainly isn't about making $$$ , reducing ed costs or busting unions.

[MattBaggins]

31. The industries behind the International private school movement

is being run by the same hedge fund managers that nearly crashed the economy. There are massive amounts of money to be made from captive local communities tax monies.

Big money involved.

[callous taoboy]

35. It's good to remember that Neil Bush had his "ignite" program that

was part of the Bush money-making / charter school scheme.

[OZark Dem]

37. Didn't Jebbie buy that for Florida ?

[callous taoboy]

58. Yeah, funny how education works when used as a business model.

Rich assholes get richer, the students not necessarily any smarter.

[mzteris]

39. Maybe you should try

educating yourself about what charter public schools are or are not.

And why so many people - many very good democracts and whole damn lot of engaged liberal parents - ARE excited and supportive.

They are NOT about profit.

They are NOT about being "non-union".

They ARE about providing education that meets the needs of students are are responsive to the needs of their community.

Only 10% of charters are managed by "for-profit organizations". The schools themselves are non-profit. Those same organizations also manage traditional public schools across the country, btw.

10% of charters are managed by larger non-profit organizations.

The rest - 80% are operated and managed by local individuals - parents, teachers, administrators and citizens with an interest in the successful education of students in their community. They are non-profit. They are filled by lottery. They provide services for ESL and special needs children. They have a preponderance of students who qualify for free-and reduced lunch. They serve populations who are NOT being served appropriately by their local school boards.

[OZark Dem]

42. I understand what you are saying.

My son teaches in a small city that has no Charter schools. I would be interested in knowing the source of your statistics, plus a couple of names of the Corporations that run them. I did see what I thought some fuzzy ownership in Florida.

[mzteris]

73. The "corporations"

do you mean the management companies? The TEN PERCENT of ALL CHARTER SCHOOLS?

80% are local opened, managed, and operated.

another 10% are managed by large non-profit management organizations.


I'm suspect of every single school in Florida.

Here's a good website for statistics and information: http://www.publiccharters.org/

[Evasporque]

8. They won't go back public.

Conservative won't care if the kids are stripped and hung naked from burlap bags as long as they don't have to pay property tax.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. Charters are funded with tax dollars

They'll still need to pay property tax.

[Deep13]

9. The typical response to corporate failure...

...is not to go to a public system, but rather to cut taxes for the rich and blame the victims for--er--well, they always think of some way to blame the powerless.

The parasitic ultra rich know this is not about education children. It is about making everything we do as a nation part of their personal fiefdom.

[Curmudgeoness]

10. There are days that I think it would serve the conservative wingnuts

right if all their wet dreams came true. Then we could finally shut their f*&king mouths about how much better everything would be if...

Public schools were replaced by charter schools.
The businesses had no regulation.
Taxes were cut to zero.
Everything, including fire, police, roadwork, etc. were privatized.
Tort reform ruled so that no one could sue for anything.
The EPA was shuttered.
Social Security and Medicare ceased to exist.
Welfare, Medicaid, and all the other safety nets were gone.

Yep, that would give me a chance to say "I told you so". Too bad it can't be done without total destruction of society.

[blondeatlast]

14. I'm good with offering them an island all their own. How long before they declare a civil war--

or even about 7 civil wars there?

[Curmudgeoness]

19. Excellent. Much better than my option. Let them experiment on their own.

Can we put up cameras? I want to watch!

[blondeatlast]

26. Reality TV even I'd love to watch! nt

[AngryAmish]

12. If a parent wants their kid to go to a nice school, does that make them discriminatory?

I will admit it - my local school sucks and I will never send my child there. So we are going to move, send the tot to Catholic school or try to get her into a selective enrollment school. If I have to cheat on the tests to get her into a selective enrollment school, I will do that.

Does that make me a bigot?

[blondeatlast]

15. That's a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. Are you using public money to help

pay tuition? I have some words for that, but bigot isn't it.

[AngryAmish]

16. The selective enrollment school are public (you have to test in)

If I move it will be to a suburb with nice public schools.

[Tatiana]

34. You don't have to test into all selective enrollment public schools.

Some just run a simple lottery based on applicants.

[Statistical]

48. Then that isn't selective enrollment.

It is simply a condition of more applicants than available seats.

lottery != selective enrollment

tests or other metrics to determine if student qualifies for the school = selective enrollment (for example a school for gifted children)

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. It makes you a cheater

Nice example for your child. :sarcasm:

[AngryAmish]

20. Well, I feel the the Chicago Public Schools cheat me out of my tax money

Two wrongs make a right, no?

[Gold Metal Flake]

21. "Two wrongs make a right, no?"

Yes. If you are a Republican.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Not for me they don't.

[blondeatlast]

27. Bless your heart... nt

[Dappleganger]

22. I want our children to go to a nice public school.

And I want everyone else's child to have the same chance as we do.

[blondeatlast]

29. Hear, hear! nt

[mzteris]

40. exactly -

that's why charter public schools are so popular amongst the poor and disenfranchised and minority population.

[Statistical]

46. Charter schools ARE public schools.

Too bad demand is higher than capacity hence the need for lotteries.

[callous taoboy]

57. Except that they are often not held to the same standards as true public schools-

Plus they often have built in to their charters the right to discriminate.

[KossackRealityCheck]

56. And if a nice public school isn't in my district, then what?

Childhood goes very quickly and there's only one shot at it. Very few parents are going to sacrifice their children's well being and future on the principal of eventually achieving good public schools for all when the time frame for educating your own kid is about 10 years.

We used every trick imaginable to get our kid out of the sucky local public school into better public schools in other parts of the city, including my SO's one woman sit in at the district superintendent's office.

One policy that should have unanimous support from parents, teachers and administrators, but surprisingly doesn't, is that every public school child has the right NOT to go to the local, zoned public school and has the right to go to any other public school. Shockingly, I've debated teachers on forums who think students should not be able to transfer out of bad schools into other public schools.

I don't get it -- it's like looking at school (as one parent I was discussing this with on another forum put it) as a form of prison from which there is no escape.

[callous taoboy]

60. Well, we are trying to have a civilazation here,

and when we run away from problem schools, when we continue to not recognize the core problems of poverty and undernourished kids to name a couple, when we continue to cut kindergarten programs which prepare children for school, and then we leave these schools to the wolves and underperforming parents we abdicate our responsibility that all children get a great education.

I can see your point, though.

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. Yep. Shouldn't lose more than a third of a generation. nt

[baldguy]

30. The Charter School movement is *designed* to end universal public education.

If charter schools replace public schools, and then become overcrowded & underfunded, then some students will be denied a publicly funded education.

[awoke_in_2003]

32. No, they will go fully private...

and only the wealthy will be educated. Welcome back 1700's.

[Count Olaf]

33. By the time we realize how stupid everyone is, it will be too late

n/t

[callous taoboy]

36. Ho- It's so lonely on "ignore."

:evilgrin:

[mzteris]

38. charter schools ARE public schools.

They won't get over-crowded because they're designed not to be.

Budgets can be and are cut, and yes they are suffering from those budget cuts. But the truth of the matter is they do more with less because there is not so much entrenched bureaucracy.

The ones that are being built in "impoverished areas" are being built because those people WANT to be there and they WANT to make a difference and they are given the tools and freedom to do so.

Charter public schools. Meeting the needs of the public they serve.

Gotta love it.

[ibegurpard]

41. This is the latest big lie privateers are pushing

that charter schools are public schools.

[Statistical]

47. Charter schools ARE public schools.

That isn't a lie.

Some (a minority) of charter schools are run by for-profit companies but in some school districts traditional public schools are run by for profit companies ALSO.

In New Orleans for example the majority of students attend charter schools (w/ goal eventually for all schools to be based on charter). The same teachers union which traditional public school teacher are a member also covers charter teachers.

[Starry Messenger]

51. What traditional public schools are run by private management companies?

I've heard this before from people here, but no one has provided any examples. Is New Orleans the example?

The majority of schools in New Orleans are charter schools because the Bush administration thought the destruction from Katrina was a good opportunity to eliminate the traditional public school system and replace it with their plans. What they did there is what school reformers are planning to do in more urban cores, whether the parents want to or not. It is not a traditional public school system in the sense we usually talk about anymore. Swamp Rat has written about this here as well, so you can do a search for his posts here. He lives there and knows first hand.



The union there is just starting to regain ground. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Teachers_of_New_Orleans'

"On August 29, 2005, Hurricane Katrina hit the city of New Orleans.

UTNO members, about to begin the school year, received their first and last two-week paycheck on September 1, 2005. With no tax revenue flowing into OPSB coffers, the school district cancelled further paychecks and all insurance for New Orleans education workers.

Hurricane Katrina also left 100 of New Orleans' 128 school buildings heavily damaged.

Reacting to the devastation wrought by Hurricane Katrina, on November 22, 2005, the Louisiana legislature passed Act 35 and took over the New Orleans public school system. Eleven of the 20 state representatives from Orleans Parish voted against the takeover plan.

Act 35 changed the definition of a failing public school and the terms under which the state could assume of a school. First, the definition of a failing SPS score was defined as "below the state average." In the 2004-05 school year, the state average was 87.4. Thus, Act 35 substantially raised the bar for low-performing schools. Second, Act 35 expanded the state's takeover authority to entire school districts (rather than individual schools). Act 35 defined a failing school district as one which had more than 30 failing schools, or one where at least 50 percent of students attended AU schools.

Act 35 applied almost exclusively to Orleans Parish. Only 14 of Louisiana's 64 school districts had more than 30 schools, and almost none of them had the requisite number of AU schools or percentage of students in AU school to meet the new definition of a "failing" school district.

To UTNO leaders, Act 35 seemed to be aimed squarely at them. Conservative state legislators appeared to be using the Hurricane Katrina crisis to break the union in the name of quality education. "The changes in the SPS standard, the addition of a 30-school threshold provision and the timing of this change strongly suggest that state officials were intent on assuming control of most OPSB public schools. This view is also supported by the fact that although there are 'failing' schools in three other Louisiana school districts, state officials have not initiated a takeover of any of those schools."<5>

Act 35 had a significant effect on the Orleans Parish School Board's functioning. The RSD took over 112 schools, operating 95 of them directly and permitting 17 others to be run by charter school organizations. The Louisiana State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education took over two other public schools, turning them over to charter school operators as well. OPSB retained control over only 18 schools. In order to obtain federal funding to repair and reopen these schools, OPSB turned 13 of the schools over to a single charter school operator, the Algiers Charter School Association. Only five schools remained under the direct control of OPSB.<6>

Whether intended to do so or not, Act 35 broke the United Teachers of New Orleans. With so few schools under its control, OPSB fired all teachers and other city education personnel on January 31, 2005. On February 1, 2006, UTNO filed suit to force the city to open more public schools. Another suit attempted to win back-pay as a result of Act 35 layoffs, while a third sought contractually-required disaster pay, lost sick days, employer-paid health care premiums, and additional employer contributions to the union's health and welfare funds.<7> When the union's collective bargaining agreement expired in June 2006, the OPSB declined to renegotiate the agreement."


Charter schools are not public schools. They are not beholden to the public, they just use public taxpayer money.

[Statistical]

53. Charter schools ARE public schools.

The charter is issued by the State. The state contains represntatives elected by the people.

The idea that "the people" don't want charter schools but continue to vote for candidates who support charter schools is kinda stupid.

Public Schools
- traditional district schools
- charter schools
- selection based schools (gifted schools, schools for arts, etc)

Private School
- religious schools
- academies
- specialized schools

Charter schools are PUBLIC schools.

They use public funds.
They accept students without private/individual payments.
They receive a charter from the state.
They must meet criteria set in their charter to continue operation.

Charter schools are just as public as district schools are.
There are good district schools and there are horrible district schools.
There are good charter schools and there are horrible charter schools.

One can argue that district schools are superior to charter schools but to say charter schools aren't public is just false.
Charter schools can only operate while their charter remains valid w/ the state. If the state revokes their charter the charter schools ceases to exist. Period. Private schools don't require permission from the state to exist, don't use public funds, and aren't required to have open-enrollment.

[Starry Messenger]

55. You can stick feathers on your butt and call yourself a chicken.

You won't be a chicken. I knew you weren't going to budge, but I had to try. Oh, well, more fool me.

[callous taoboy]

61. They do not have to adhere to the same standards that the true public school does.

Plus they can, and often do, discriminate.

[mzteris]

70. thank goodness!

All charters DO have to meet the SAME EDUCATIONAL STANDARDS as their trad counterparts. The freedom is in the methodology, etc. You might find it interesting to go to your (or just about any) state DPI and read their law regarding charter schools = how they're operated and what they are required to do to meet requirements.

And no - they do not "discriminate". Some schools have particular admittance requirements in the same way that magnet or special trad schools do.

[WinkyDink]

59. Where are "traditional public schools...run by for profit companies"?

[mzteris]

69. Around the country -

Philadelphia was one district, I don't remember off the top of my head where they are.

That is where these "for profit management companies" got their start - managing traditional school districts before charters even came into existence.

Their numbers are dropping in both the trad and charter market - though they're growing rapidly in the on-line market - which is a a damn shame.

I deplore the "for profit" model - thank goodness they manage only 10% of all charter public schools in this country. though to hear people tell it - all charters are for profit, when the truth is all charter schools are NON-PROFIT in and of themselves, though that 10% is being managed by a for-profit management organization.

[mzteris]

68. no - it's the truth.

The legal and honest and true definition of a charter school is that it is a PUBLIC school - open and free TO THE PUBLIC.

[hack89]

74. In Rhode Island they are by law. There can be no private charters

they are held to the same education standards of every other public school and can be shut down my the state if they don't meet those standards.

[timo]

44. My son is in a charter school

My son got in ALOT of trouble for fighting in school, come to find out he was sticking up for one of his friends who was/is unable to defend himself, the teachers wouldnt do shit against the thug kids picking on the little gringo, so Ethan ended up beating the crap out of 2 kids....off to charter school he went(public school wanted to expel him for fighting and I had to throw a huge fit because they wanted him arrested as per their no fighting policy) and surprise, surprise, surprise, we dont have notes coming home about fights, his grades didnt go up, at first they came down because the charter school does a whole shitload more work in class and at home than the local public schools, but he got into the routine and is back to a's and b's.....if a school is full of shitty kids and good kids cant concentrate on getting an education, then the district as a whole has failed!!! I like the charter school system here and have been very satisfied with the results, my daughter still attends public school as does my youngest son!!

The area I live in is in deep south Texas on the mexican border and is considered a impoverished area if that matters...

[dkf]

54. Good for you and your son.

It's funny how some people hate success stories if it doesn't serve their agendas. For me, all I want is to see improvement and if that means charter schools so be it.

[timo]

67. I agree

I would also point out that this charter school is the U.N. of schools here in our area, ALL the food groups are present.

[callous taoboy]

63. If your son were to continue fighting in this charter school, does its charter

allow him to be permanently barred from attending?

[timo]

66. yes

they do not allow fighting, and since he has attended this school he hasnt had to deal with thug hooligan kids beating up smaller kids or gangs of kids bullying people.

[seabeyond]

52. ya... fingers crossed my kids make it out of system before ruination of public for charter

we have no charter that compares to our public. the private are not as academically excellent as our public. hope kids survive all the mass changes being made to "help" them as it only makes success less possible.

gotta love it.

[callous taoboy]

64. Hear Hear!

[Swamp Rat]

62. In the meantime, America's best and most qualified teachers will lose their jobs and livelihoods,

I am not loving ANY of this.

[nunyabidness]

65. Once again, It`s everybody elses fault.....

When I get a job, I submit a rider for equipment that I need to do the tour. Now there are times that I don`t get what I ask for (because of budget reasons mostly) so "I DO WHAT I NEED TO" to make the tour work and work well. If I whined and complained about this factor and that factor I would never be called again. Now, I`ll let them know that I should have this or that piece of gear but I don`t let the tour suffer. There`s a million and one things wrong with the entertainment business but I don`t let that stop me from doing quality work. I would suggest these teachers figure out a way to do good for the children the are supposed to be teaching or get out of the way and let someone else work the problem.