KIPP Schools are featured in Waiting for Superman: What is Wrong with their Success?

[BrentWil]

This is a simple question. KIPP Schools are featured in Waiting for Superman. To me, this looks like a school that has had some success. Kipp Annual Report Card

Basic Question: Why should I mistrust this apparent success?

[elleng]

1. You shouldn't, nor should you, or I, or anyone, mistrust real success.

We do need to consider the particular way in each school/district that charters are authorized and operate.

[BrentWil]

2. Well....

The way they did it is something alot of teacher unions distrust. That is the point. Explain why I should mistrust it also.

[elleng]

3. You shouldn't, because you shouldn't hook yourself into teacher unions opinions, over all.

They are not always right, or right about all things.

[BrentWil]

5. I agree. I don't. However, many of the people on the board do.

I am simply wanting a logical defense of their positions instead of personnel attacks if I question something.

[elleng]

11. Gotcha. Will think about it. Someone at DU has relevant experience.

Will check it out. But here's one. Sorry for no link.

*FOUND Greyskye, a DUer, parent, and active in child's school/district/charter.

Somewhere in news recently heard interview with young teacher, maybe in NYC, who recognized needs of her students for extra help, so she arranged to 'tutor' them after hours. She was very upset to learn that 'her' union contract forbade her to do such. I've thought of it ever since.

[immoderate]

63. Reason to doubt...

I was a NYC school teacher, and had help sessions before and after school at various times. I know of no union rule forbidding teachers to spend extra time tutoring students. Requiring it of a teacher may go against union rules.

What I'm sure I wouldn't do (and must be against some ethics code) is take compensation to tutor one of mine or any other teacher in my school's students. I always refuse.

--imm

[elleng]

66. Maybe wasn't NYC. Wasn't about $.

[proud2BlibKansan]

Still doesn't make sense or sound credible

Doesn't matter where this supposedly happened.

[elleng]

84. Makes perfect sense, and was entirely credible; I heard her.

Sorry if some can't accept that unions and union agreements can do no wrong; they can, and they do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. There is no such item in any union contract that I have ever heard of

Sorry you fell for this bullshit. But no, it makes zero sense. I am calling bullshit on this claim.

[elleng]

86. I 'fell' for a young, saddened teacher

who was unable to provide the help her disadvantaged students needed. No 'bullshit' there.

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. Either you're gullible or that teacher is stupid

Union contracts don't dictate how teachers choose to spend their time outside of their workday.

[elleng]

92. Maybe she's stupid, or was misled, but seems to me

that making such a broad statement about what union contracts do or don't do, considering the numbers of contracts that exist, is a bit of a stretch.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. I'm a longtime union activist. I'm not just spouting shit here.

If this was NYC, that's my union and I know for a fact it's bullshit.

Like I said in another reply, it could be a DISTRICT policy. That makes sense. It's a dumb policy but it's credible for a school district. But unions don't tell teachers what they can and can't do after school.

[readmoreoften]

95. +1

[readmoreoften]

94. ignorant, anti-union nonsense from someone who's obviously never been under a union contract.

[elleng]

97. Cut the crap. I heard what I heard. (and I organized a union, under some jeopardy.)

Life is what it is, like it or not.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. More likely it's a district policy

I would believe a school district policy forbidding free tutoring after school. For one thing, they have all those licensed agencies getting paid under NCLB to tutor after school in under performing schools. THEIR contract with the district may indeed forbid teachers from offering tutoring at no charge. I can also believe a district wanting to be paid for use of the facility or the services of their employee.

But it makes zero sense for a union to forbid this. Unions don't tell teachers how they can and cannot spend their non working hours. They can advise - like asking us not to shop at WalMart or to buy certain union made products. But forbid? No way. My other guess would be a union recommending a teacher not offer to tutor for free. But again, that's quite different from outright banning.

[immoderate]

106. I left before NCLB.

But I taught some Regents courses, and there was an instrument that was a measure of my success. Rightly or wrongly it was taken that way. Even I took it that way.

I offered help before and after school. It got some kids through. There were stressful situations. Once I was given an eighth grade class halfway through the year and told to prep them for the ninth year math regents exam. They had little instruction. When the rule came down that all ninth grade students must be in a regents class (whether they could count their fingers or not) I left.

I don't remember the union supporting the extra time, but no one ever objected.

--imm

[Orlandodem]

4. KIPP can require parental involvement for students to remain enrolled.

That is the biggest thing. Charter/private schools can tell parents that if they don't participate in their child's education, or if their child doesn't follow the rules then their child is OUT. Public schools can't do that.

[BrentWil]

8. So total selection bias?

I find that hard to believe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. There is quite a bit of that going on actually

[donco6]

29. There is both overt and subverted selection bias that happens.

For example, just down the street from me is the Denver School of Science and Technology. They were just on Oprah a few weeks ago, receiving a grant so they can start up more schools.

To get into DSST, you have to complete an application form. The form is in English only, and is due in January. So that's going to eliminate many non-engaged parents, and parents who don't speak English. About 31% of DSST's kids are Hispanic, in an area of town that's majority Hispanic.

Then, once you're in, you've got to try to stay in. If you miss 15 days of school in a year, you're held back a grade. What this does is encourages kids to bail if they're going to have attendance problems. In a regular public school, this is a problem we have to deal with all the time. In a charter like DSST - hey, there's always the public school to ship them back to! Problem solved!

Then there's the nightly homework. If a kid doesn't do the homework, or if the kid is habitually late, they are place on probation and can even be expelled: If academic effort continues to be a problem, a conference with the parent/guardian will be held to discuss more serious steps that may include retention or expulsion. In a regular public school, it's not legal for us to expel a kid for not doing his homework (as much as some people might wish it were so). But hey, there's always the public school to ship them back to!

All told, this adds up to a school that's going to LOOK like it takes all comers (even though it really doesn't), and to LOOK like it has great success (even though it's doing it by getting rid of anyone who can't or won't perform.) Regular public schools don't get that luxury. We have to make it work for all kids - even those who don't have parents who care.

[mzteris]

35. and again -

why is it a BAD thing to require students to attend school regularly, to do their homework responsibly?

You want to forbid a school doing that because another school doesn't?

How about finding ways to make this work for as many people as possible? To enforce such rules in ALL schools in a way that makes sense for the majority of the children?

Children who aren't "doing the work" is a major reason many people want to flee particular schools. Children who are engaged, who want to be there, who want to learn - why should they be PENALIZED by children who can't keep up, don't want to, and do nothing but cause chaos and distraction in the classroom?

[donco6]

37. Did you even read my post?

I won't even reply to your idiotic questioning - if you can't figure out why it's completely unfair to allow a charter to dump kids onto a public school because they're not turning in their homework on time, I have nothing to offer you.

[mzteris]

45. I'm not talking about "dumping kids"

I'm talking about why is it that schools can't require children to do their work?

Instead of being upset that a school CAN do that, make it so that every school "does that".

[Recursion]

50. We've persuaded ourselves that all kids in all situations are educable

This may or may not be true; I'm agnostic on the question.

Sooo.... when a kid who for whatever reason simply doesn't participate at all in his education, we can't do what we used to do back when we didn't think all kids are educable (kick them out) -- and there aren't salt mines for 12 year olds to go work in anymore. Charters can do this, public schools can't*.

On the one hand, it's true that this ends up dumping the most difficult kids on the public schools. On the other hand, I can't think of another way to protect the kids that are actually engaged and trying from the difficult ones.

* That's not entirely true. Just like a motivated administrator can find ways to fire a teacher in a traditional public school, motivated administrators also find ways to "disappear" kids from their school.

[Tatiana]

53. Seriously? Regular public schools could not do this in good conscience.

Sometimes, due to home environments, school is the safest place for a student to be. If we kicked out every student who missed 16 days of attendance, where would all these kids go?

The streets, is where. And then we'd be looking at higher crime rates and more prisons.

[Recursion]

56. Err... public schools have pretty high dropout rates

If we kicked out every student who missed 16 days of attendance, where would all these kids go?

Well, where are they going? The districts we're talking about have a quarter or more of their students dropping out. How is that not "culling"?

[donco6]

69. It's not culling in my case, because we don't WANT them to leave.

We just got a $300,000 grant from the state to combat the dropout rate. We're actually trying to keep them in school.

For the charter - it's a win for them when they can dump an unperforming kid. It only HELPS their scores. The kid has to go back to the public school, and THEN drop out! The charter doesn't get it counted against their dropout rate. The public school does.

[Tatiana]

73. Some are working full-time. Some are getting into trouble on the streets.

The solution is to publicly-fund alternative schools that serve older high-school students and high school drop outs. I work in such a school and there are many reasons students drop out that don't involve crime or lack of interest in school.

But until then I couldn't in good conscience agree to kick kids out of school. If anything, some districts have found success having the state's attorney prosecute the parents/guardians for their students' truancy. I'd favor that approach more as it would force parents to take a greater interest in whether their children were attending school (which in most states is compulsory).

[donco6]

79. +1

Thank you.

[woo me with science]

105. Plus, many public schools can and DO kick students out.

They are kicked out to alternative public schools, where they go into someone else's statistics.

I used to sub at one of them. Practically every kid had severe behavioral problems and had been "kicked out" of another public school.

[immoderate]

68. That's the answer! We should REQUIRE that students be smart.

Schools can do that. I wonder why they don't.

--imm

[Mr Generic Other]

81. you may find it hard to believe but its so.

charters are publicly funded but don't have to follow any of the rules that public schools must.
and even with that advantage their students do not score any better on tests than students in traditional public schools.
the movie and the media's focus on "failing public schools" is all about privatization and union busting.
the uber-lords will not be happy until they own it all.

[mzteris]

30. and that's a problem, isn't it?

Teachers gripe all the time about "lack of parental involvement".

So having parents involved is a GOOD thing, right? So don't be jealous and angry, be glad that there are parents involved and children who have parents who are involved.

Do you want to forbid something that is good and that works for children because the traditional "don't do that"? That is kinda the point behind charter public schools - being able to DO THINGS that traditionals can't or won't do.

[uncommon]

101. It is unfortunate that public schools can't get parents more involved - I am on the PTO at my

daughter's school and the level of apathy parents seem to have about their children's education is enraging.

[donco6]

6. They're certainly not knocking the socks off of our tests in Colo.

Certainly not to the extent where children should be sobbing and weeping for not having gotten in. On several of the tests, DPS kids are scoring quite a bit higher. *This* is "Superman?"

[BrentWil]

9. Good.

I want all kids to get the best. However, that fact doesn't distract from their success in Harlem, for example.

[donco6]

12. True. But to hold them up as the answer nationwide? Not so much.

But that's what's happening - and it's unfortunate.

[BrentWil]

15. But it is an example of what can work

For flexibility, the ability to fire bad teachers, and reward bad ones, getting the culture right, etc.

In my opinion, the middle to upper class should get federal money attached to their kids and the money should follow the kid. It is time to create a market which poorer kids have access to.

[donco6]

22. Vouchers? Really? No thanks. n/t

[Recursion]

52. I have very few non-starters about education. Vouchers is a big one. NT

[elleng]

17. There is no answer nationwide, there is no 'solution.'

There are answerS and solutionS.

[donco6]

21. I totally agree.

In fact, I believe the ONLY answers are those that are created within the local community. Think about Harlem Children's Zone. Canada created that program by observing his own community and creating a solution for his specific situation.

The problem is, we see "success" and we think it can just be plucked from that milieu and plunked down somewhere else with the same results. It can't. That's why it's completely wrongheaded to think we can create these cookie cutter KIPP schools all over the place and we'll see some kind of miracle. Without the reform coming up from the local community, without the community owning its own problems - it just can't change.

[elleng]

23. Bravo. Unfortunately this fact will leave many 'districts' with no solutions.

[Pisces]

26. They are not planning on putting Kipp schools everywhere. It can be the solution for

other urban areas. To tear down a success where none has been found for decades is ridiculous. It makes the people against these programs sound like they only care for ideology vs. the children.
There are children graduating and going on to college that would otherwise have ended up in the penal system or worse. Yet some on this board are dead set against something that is working for
a particular demographic that needs a lifeline.

This solution is not for the majority of public schools that are working it is for those areas that are called drop out schools.

[donco6]

31. It's not a solution for our community here - at least not so far.

If it were, that would be another story altogether. But when we're shown a movie that implies that NOT getting in to the KIPP school is equivalent to . . . a hopeless future - well, that's just silly. Maybe in that one situation in Harlem - but that's not why they're showing this movie nationwide with big education panels and previews, now is it? It's being painted as Our Salvation. I'm just lifting the curtain to show people there's just a little man back there throwing levers. It's no miracle.

[mzteris]

38. That's why charters should be locally conceived and operated.

I don't like the "big box". Charters should be a SUPPLEMENT to the traditional system. The original intent of charters is the best thing about charters.

I say shut down the "management companies" - both for- and non-profit and ensure that all charters are designed to serve the community in which they reside.

[Recursion]

41. Amen

Charters can be great. Big management companies swooping in to get fact contracts isn't.

[Hannah Bell]

55. in fact, there is. statistically. elite schools "perform" better, middle class schools somewhat

worse, poor schools worst of all.

the *answer* is obvious from the fact that the income of students' families is the best predictor of a school's "performance".

[elleng]

60. and we fund schools based on these demographics, which has ALWAYS been our problem.

[Hannah Bell]

71. my point wasn't about school funding.

[elleng]

74. I understand; mine was.

Like to recognize it or not, that is and has been problem with our schools forever, and it feeds into culture/economic/class problem.

[BrentWil]

75. Then lets attach resources to these kids..

An economic market to serve those that are most in need will improve quality.

[Hannah Bell]

78. barf. puke.

[BrentWil]

80. I know. Solutions that bring hope to the poor but don't fit into your box of expectable do that NT

[elleng]

87. You got it, again. Thx

[elleng]

14. Right. Harlem ain't Colorado. Its a big country.

[DeltaLitProf]

90. The "success" is not evident. The measures are not valid.

To put the scores of a school that can get rid of weak students against the scores of a school that cannot, that is not a valid comparison.

And I would deign to say it is your own lack of commitment to your own education that has caused you not to see this point.

What a coincidence that someone who is evidently not very well educated would disdain public school teachers and look for evidence that public schools need to be done away with (as the charter schools movement is now saying it should do).

There's another web forum for people like you. I invite you to join it.

[blondeatlast]

7. Edit: I've been proven wrong, much to my delight. nt

[Reader Rabbit]

13. Considering that's KIPP's report card on their *own* success...

...I'd take the numbers indicating success with an enormous grain of salt. If they're like many other charter schools, they weed out students who might bring their numbers down.

[BrentWil]

16. Here is a link to independent reports...

http://www.kipp.org/about-kipp/results/independent-reports

[Jakes Progress]

19. Independent? Independent?

It's Kipp's website for pete's sake.

Maybe a charter here or there has success. Just as many fail children miserably. The answer doesn't lie in the "magic" of charters. There is no district in the country that has replicated a successful charter.

Try this story: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/guest-bloggers/manifesto-should-be-resignatio.html

Waiting for Superman is about magic bullets. There is no magic bullet. People want to reduce education to a simple solution. Those that do are lying.

[BrentWil]

20. Is there a source that shows something different...

And I agree. THe answer isn't in a Charter. However, the upper tier of charter do perform extremely well.

I think the answer is in giving middle class and the poor a choice. Those kids need money attached to them and allow it to follow them. An economic market needs to develop in order to serve them.

[aquart]

28. How about NOT giving them a choice?

How about saying these are the rules, these are the requirements, act up in class and spend the day in the office.

And give a grant for improving acoustics in the classrooms we have now because sound quality sucks. The voice of the teacher has to be easier to hear than the kid at the next desk.

The biggest difference between charters and public is the charter doesn't have to put up with a kid who acts out in a classroom.

Kids are geniuses for learning the rules of every new game or venue. There is no reason on the planet that they can't learn how to behave in a classroom. They used to know.

[Jakes Progress]

77. If you are happy with pr puffery

then go for it. If I questioned Kipp's record, I would want more info than what I could find on their own website.

The "upper tier" of public schools perform extremely well also.

The answer isn't choice. That's because children are more important than that. If you have tax based revenue that will reward corporations, they will take it. Do you really believe that the public does a really good job of always picking the best thing for them? Is there any evidence you can cite that will show that the public isn't easily swayed by lots of advertising dollars? I can guarantee you that if I wanted to get rich, and money followed the children, I would open a school called the Academy of Exceptional American Youth. The ad copy would write itself. It wouldn't matter what happened in the classrooms. I could cheat on the tests. I would rake in the money as parents were happy to get their children into such a prestigious school. You got a problem teen? I could offer the Middle Level Institute for Children Needing Differential Learning. More money. Tax money for me. This happens on a small scale right now in most urban districts. in the best corporate fashion, you target an consumer and pitch what they desire.

The answer is not simple. The problem is not what people think. The solution is to remember that the very same schools that the public now distrusts are the very same schools that thirty years ago, they thought were the best in the world. There is very little difference between the education then and now. The main difference is that there has been a steady drumbeat of a MSM campaign lead by the neocon agenda to convince the public that American schools suck. They don't suck any more than they did thirty years ago. The problem is that there is room for improvement and that all of the plans by the neocons, now the plans of the administration, will only worsen the education that children receive. Every thing that these people cite as a problem will be exacerbated by the very programs and plans they propose.

But I have become very cynical and fatalistic about this issue. I know a lot about schools and education. A lot. There are thousands who know more than I do. But none of them has been consulted. No person in a position to effect change has bothered to listen to them. This is a fait accompli. Our schools have already been sold. Now it's just a mater of justifying it. Told you I was cynical. But it is justifiable cynicism.

[johnaries]

18. There are some who believe that Charter Schools are a ploy

to eventually privatize public schools. Personally, it sounds like a "conspiracy theory", but that's my humble opinion. Because some charter schools utilize private management, many of these people try to broad-brush ALL charter schools as being privatley-managed by for-profit companies. Some of them also try to paint these schools as "anti-union".

[donco6]

24. If by "we don't allow unions" you mean "anti-union" then yes, charters are anti-union.

I'd think that was pretty obvious. Certainly after seeing "Superman."

[Recursion]

32. There are charter schools with unionized faculty

Hell, there are charter schools run by teachers' unions.

There are also charter school teachers who choose charter schools because they don't like how the teachers' union works.

[donco6]

36. The vast, vast, vast majority are not run by teachers or unions.

But good for them if they are successful either way.

[Recursion]

39. Yes, that's true

I wasn't suggesting it's common, I was pointing out there's no inherent contradiction between charter schools and teachers' unions.

My second sentence was to remind people that not every teacher is happy with the union, and there are teachers who go to non-union charters to avoid the union.

[donco6]

46. Maybe I'm too harsh.

I do tend to see an inherent contradiction in the first part - but that's because our charters in Colo tend to be the run-of-the-mill KIPPs and Edisons and stuff like that. I'd love to see something truly innovative, but it seems they're all more along the "straight-rows, teacher-at-the-blackboard" types.

And the union - what I've found is the bigger the district, the more dysfunctional the relationship between union and management. Here in my little district, we're all too close to one another to get into that kind of pissing match. The worst I had was one year the union president was a really angry guy who'd been angry for a long, long time. I never could figure him out. He'd ask for TONS of financial data sorted six was to Sunday. I'd get it all ready and deliver it and he'd just look at me like I was from Mars.

"What am I supposed to do with that?" he said.

"It's the stuff you said you wanted - all the financial data and sorts."

"Well, I didn't want THAT much shit."

"Sorry, it's just the way it comes out when you want it by school and by grade and by year."

"harrumpf"

Sheesh.

[mzteris]

43. don't be ridiculous -

there ARE union charters - some charters were STARTED by the teachers union for goodness sake.

Like any profession or organization - you can unionize if you want to.

The truth of the matter is - unions just aren't necessary when you're being treated like a professional and your work and your opinion is valued.

[mzteris]

42. 10% are managed by non-profit management companies

another 10% are managed by forprofit management companies - (you know, the ones who got their start managing traditional school systems?)

EIGHTY PERCENT are locally operated!

[Hannah Bell]

58. still flogging that phony data?

[Mr Generic Other]

83. poster # 18. i wonder why these accusations are being laid at the

feet of charters? i can tell you from my own experience with the gates people that this is exactly what is happening.
believe what you want to believe but i have first hand knowledge that the charter movement is about privatization and union busting.

[NashVegas]

100. It Could Go Either Way, At This Point

No one's talking about it out load, but in parts of the country, public schools are breaking down and it's not because of bad teachers or bad admins, it's because of bad parents.

Whether by chance of unfortunate circumstances like being trapped in a cycle of poverty with no faith in oneself to climb out, drugs, the computer/internet age, or other reasons for misbehavior and what have you, the worst students are bogging down the entire system and holding back others.

Some will look to Charter schools with rose-tinted glasses as a great savior, and of course it's to be expected there will be corporate capitalism entities who see an opportunity to make a buck. Deny that and you lose all hope of being taken seriously.

[SoCalDem]

25. Keyword....apparent

Trumpeting self-successes is often like polls.. Pollsters can make a poll say whatever the person paying for it, wants..

Time will tell how "successful" any school is, because there are many ways to measure it, and as many students whose lives comprise the success/failure.

A kid gets one chance at an education.

People who love the idea of charter schools tout the fact that they are egalitarian because of the way they choose their students (lottery=fair), but once the spotlight has stopped shining on the choosing time/method, the "culling" begins..probably one at a time or a few at a time.. Public schools cannot as easily "cull" the underachieving ones, so of course their scores will be lower. It's very much like buying the "family-pak" of porkchops...the butchers hide the fatty ones underneath. If you only want primo chops you have to by the two-pak where you can see both of them.

In charter schools (as in private schools) reputation is their license to print money for the executives, so it's of utmost importance to make it appear to be more than it really is. The system is their chessboard & the kids & teachers are the pieces..

[distilledvinegar]

27. High Student Attrition Rates

Here you go:

http://www.sfschools.org/2008/07/kipp-attrition-vs-sfusd-attrition.html

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ767462&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=EJ767462

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2008/09/high-test-scores-at-kipp-coupled-with.html

Hope these help.

[donco6]

34. That first link is eye-opening. Attrition through KIPP grades.

KIPP Bayview Academy:

Total enrollment for the class that finished 8th grade in June 2008:
05-06 (6th grade) 88, 06-07 (7th grade) 58, 07-08 (8th grade) 47. That's a loss of 46.6% of the class.

African-American boys in that one class:
05-06 (6th grade) 27, 06-07 (7th grade) 27, 07-08 (8th grade) 10. That's a loss of 63% of the African-American boys in the class.

African-American girls in that one class:
05-06 (6th grade) 32, 06-07 (7th grade) 34, 07-08 (8th grade) 20. That's a loss of 37.5% of the African-American girls in the class (after a small increase from 6th to 7th).

[madfloridian]

40. Attrition not just high at KIPP, either.

Other charters do it to keep their scores high.

[BrentWil]

48. What is the public school graduation rate in Harlem or DC? NT

[madfloridian]

49. Someone needs to teach you how to research for yourself.

You spend your time here asking others to research for you.

[BrentWil]

51. Or perhaps I know the answer....

Let me let you in on a secrete. Public school attrition rates in DC are awful.

[Recursion]

54. DCPS's graduation rate hovers around 65-75%

Somewhere between a third and a quarter of kids are dropping out (see, public schools "cull" too).

And 94% of teachers received "very good" or "excellent" on their last pre-Rhee evaluation.

[madfloridian]

59. Not speaking of drop-outs..Charter schools let them go.

Public schools can not just lose a kid because he is a low performer.

[Recursion]

61. Of course they can and do

You're fooling yourself if you think that doesn't happen. They just hide it better than KIPP (they get lost in amongst the rest of the dropouts).

[madfloridian]

65. And in the process they raise their scores and lower those of public schools.

And if you think that is ok, if you excuse it...then you do not understand the meaning of a public education in a nation.

[Recursion]

67. It's the public schools I'm talking about

If you think public schools do not push out underperforming students (who get lost among the rest of the dropouts), you're fooling yourself. (NCLB has, unfortunately, made this problem a lot worse by increasing the incentives to do this.)

[Catshrink]

70. Actually, public schools are also judged on their graduation rates.

Didn't know that, did you? What's the incentive to push kids out?

[Recursion]

103. Lots of ****ing assumptions about what I know and don't know

It must feel nice to assume you know so much more than everyone.

And, yes, they are accountable for graduation rates (as, incidentally, are charters in most states), but not as drastically in the short term as they are for test scores, which has led more than one superintendent to get into some hot water for dropping the lowest-scoring 5 percent or so of the district's high schools (I think this was Texas; if this didn't make it through your news filter I can try to dig it up).

[Hannah Bell]

62. drop out doesn't = "cull". & since the national graduation rate = 69%, not sure

why you imply dcps has a shocking record.

try FLORIDA.

and as others have pointed out, students who leave kipp (or are pushed out) don't return to a different kipp school -- they go to another charter, or the public schools.

whereas students who leave one particular public school move to another public school.

in san francisco, kipp has higher attrition rates than the public schools, about 47% v. 3%.

i'm sure other comparisons have been done.

KIPP Bayview Academy:

Total enrollment for the class that finished 8th grade in June 2008:
- a loss of 46.6% of the class from 6th through 8th grade.

African-American boys in that one class:
- a loss of 63% of the African-American boys in the class.

African-American girls in that one class:
- a loss of 37.5% of the African-American girls in the class (after a small increase from 6th to 7th).

San Francisco Unified School District:

Total enrollment for the class that finished 8th grade in June 2008:
- a loss of <3% 6th-8th grade.

African-American girls in that one class:
- an overall loss of 16.9% of the African-American girls.

African-American boys in that one class:
- an overall loss of 9.75% of the African-American boys in the class.

http://www.sfschools.org/2008/07/kipp-attrition-vs-sfusd-attrition.html

*Note that it only makes sense that attrition in the two KIPP schools would be much higher than attrition in the district overall, because students who leave the KIPP schools are likely to move to a non-KIPP SFUSD school, while mobile students within SFUSD still show up in the district statistics.

The point is that it's (on average) the more challenged, struggling students who are likely to leave, for whichever reason*. High-mobility students are statistically likely to be more academically challenged. If one of those students leaves a traditional public school, the way the system works is that another student -- equally high-mobility -- is expected to replace him or her. If one of those students leaves the KIPP school, he or she is not replaced, and the school has one fewer academically challenged student (based on the likelihood, on average, that the high-mobility student will be a lower achiever).

So that is obviously likely to have a positive impact on KIPP's achievement. When such a very high percentage of students leaves and is not replaced -- and an even higher percentage of the subgroup that is statistically likely to be the most academically challenged -- and those students are not replaced, that's likely to have an extremely significant positive impact on KIPP's achievement.

[Recursion]

64. 31% nationally is a straight drop-out rate. 25% in DC is a status drop-out rate.

The equivalent figure nationally is something like 8%.

(Status rate doesn't count people who complete schooling away from their cohort one way or another.)

[Hannah Bell]

72. give me a link, lady. because this one says the national graduation rate = 71% for the class of

1998. & i seriously doubt that's gone up 20% since.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_baeo.htm

[BrentWil]

76. Those factors are not hard to control for in social science research

The use of control variables helps one determine the answer. For example, this study. http://www.kipp.org/files/dmfile/KIPPJune2010FinalReportPublic.pdf

[blondeatlast]

104. Here's a thought--try an "independent" source unless it's too difficult for you. nt

[Hannah Bell]

57. a "secrete"? what are you secreting? oh, never mind, i know. school deform crap.

[blondeatlast]

98. Sez the guy in Manhattan, KS.

Thanks for your personal expertise.

[donco6]

99. Ha! Manhattan. I grew up in Wamego.

That bring a lot of things into focus.

[mzteris]

44. were they "forced out"?

or decide that they didn't like the high standards and requirements?

[madfloridian]

47. They were not allowed to stay.

[madfloridian]

33. SLANT ....it's overkill in discipline.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. I don't approve of their methods

Rote chanting and regimentation. Reminds me of little Nazi children. Ick.

[DeltaLitProf]

88. Because they kick out the kids who might mess with their success

When you're able to get rid of students who aren't turning out to be good for your reports . . . then the sky is the limit on how well you'll appear to do.

[LWolf]

96. Well, you got plenty of answers.

That's what you wanted, right?

[blondeatlast]

102. At least we were gifted with his opinion in this thread.

He's buying into BS, of course, but his opinion in a flame thread is a rare "treat" indeed.