Cub Scouts dump gay dad

[donco6]

The father of a 9-year-old Cub Scout said Tuesday he has been forced out of a leadership role with the organization and ordered not to wear its uniform because of his sexual orientation.

Jon Langbert of Dallas, Texas, who is openly gay, told HLN's "Prime News" that he had been wearing the shirt the Scouts gave him last year with pride. The shirt identified him as a member of the leadership team that was selling popcorn for a Scout fundraiser.
Advertisement

But that all changed last week. "Everything was running along smoothly until some of the dads complained," he said. When the complaints rose to a higher level of the Scout leadership, he was asked to stop wearing the shirt and give up his leadership role, he said.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-10-19/us/texas.scouts.gay.dad_1_boy-scouts-gay-leader-scout-executive?_s=PM:US

When asked about the policy, the spokesman said, "Our mission is to take young people and prepare them for an exceptional adulthood." So, they evidently believe that gay leadership will prepare young people for . . . an unexceptional adulthood?

Fuck the Boy Scouts.

[muffin1]

1. Things seem to be getting worse with each day for the GLBTQI community.

And here we were thinking things were going to improve with Obama in office instead of shrub. Or at least I was (why did I believe him when all the signs were there?).

I'm so sorry to hear this disgusting display of homophobia. :puke:
And yes, FUCK the Boy Scouts.

K&R

edited for clarity

[mzteris]

58. I think you're wrong -

I see them getting better...

All the horrid stories that are coming up are the last gasp of a desperate group of @ssholes who are afraid of anyone that's not them.

I see a people coming together in support of GLBTIQ rights. I see an outrage building in the communities against those who abuse glbtiq. I see a younger generation who is wholely accepting of GLBTIQ and cannot understand why anyone would hate them.


I see it getting better.

I think Obama is doing the best job he can and is trying to get the rights done in such a way that the next repuke president can't come along and UNDO it.

I think you're wrong. It gets better. It IS getting better.


oh yes - and I've been saying F*ck the boy scouts since the 90's!

[npk]

70. OMG. You're blaming this on Obama

What the hell? Really!

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Generally speaking the Scouts are a decent organization when it comes to

developing kids. But they need to grow up and shake off the 19th century attitudes about things like religion and sexual orientation. I'm very sad that they did this, especially given how hard it is to get enough parents involved in the first place.

[awoke_in_2003]

8. the nation as a whole...

need to shake off religion- it does NOTHING but weaken the mind

[bobbolink]

19. You realize you just said that to someone who values her beliefs, right?

It's interesting that we condemn one group of people for their damaging attacks on others, then turn around and do the same to our own.

It high time we adopt the "Live and Let Live" philosophy.

[awoke_in_2003]

22. let me ask you one simple question...

what has your god done for you lately? If anyone should doubt his existence, I would think you would be one.

[bobbolink]

49. I am really disappointed in you.

I have no war with you... if you don't have a belief, that is fine, and that is your business. I would NEVER even THINK of confronting you in that way.

That you are doing this and saying this to others takes my breath away.

I hope that you are ready to pull back and understand that we ALL have the right to our own beliefs.

Otherwise, what the Constitution and our Founders put forth is all NULL AND VOID.

[awoke_in_2003]

56. you're right, it was classless of me...

I was wrong to say what I did, and apologize.

[bobbolink]

57. Thank you. It really didn't sound like you.

I see you as an accepting person, and that one, as I said, took my breath away.

You have every right to your own views, and I not only accept but respect your views.

I only ask the same for me and for others.

:pals:

As far as "classless" goes... I beg to differ. I am the one who is so low as to be without a class.

[awoke_in_2003]

61. You have more class than most...

money doesn't make one a good person

[ruggerson]

24. Let me know when religious rightwingers stop waging war on our families

and then I'll be glad to adopt that philosophy.

[bobbolink]

51. Its not even worth a reply.

It has been explained over and over and over and over and over and over... so where have YOU been when DUers here who have a faith explained to you that the fundies don't represent them?

Stop with the broad-brushing.

That is so totally against liberal and progressive values as to be just as bad as what the RW does.

You are engaging in prejudice, and it is time for you to stop it. Look at your own self.

[ruggerson]

72. You're right

I truly don't like religious rightwingers and conservative evangelical churches.

I realize there are liberal people of faith out there, but they seem to be completely drowned out by the noise coming from the right.

[bobbolink]

73. Being part of the forces that are drowning them out is supposed to .... what?

So, you can see the difference, but it is too much fun to denigrate other DUers to stop doing it?

:crazy:

That makes you different from those you don't like.... how? Isn't that exactly what *they* do?

:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:

[ruggerson]

74. I'm fine with denigrating religious rightwingers

and from what I can see, that's what this thread is about - as they control scouting.

[bobbolink]

75. So, you just jumped into a conversation without looking at what you were responding to, is that it?

You see, if you had looked, you would have seen that I took issue with someone who trounced A DUer for her beliefs.

That happens all the time at DU, and it is DAMAGING.

[ruggerson]

76. No, you apparently know this person to whom the remark was made

and you know her belief system. I don't and I was responding to you, not her. If you felt badly about my remark about religious rightwingers, then I don't know what else to say. It clearly wasn't aimed at religion in general, it was aimed at religious conservatives.

[bobbolink]

82. You keep insisting on conflating RW fundies with DUers of faith.

There isn't much more that can be said, when that kind of sillyness is "on the table."

[donco6]

29. But we're not the one's kicking dads out the group.

Your solution would result in our just sitting there and taking it. How is that useful to anyone?

[bobbolink]

52. That poster is also NOT one who is kicking dads out.

That you treat others who SUPPORT you like garbage, is not helping you.

Blast me, too. I'm getting past the point of caring.

Have fun with your prejudices.

[donco6]

53. Alrighty, then.

Have a nice day! :hi:

[mzteris]

60. You know, I'd agree with you

but the damage done in the name of religion on a daily basis keeps me from doing that.

Maybe "you" are okay with your religion. Heck, maybe even most of the people you know are "okay" people, but by and large, the vast majority of "religious people" (pick a religion, any religion) do evil on a daily basis in the name of some "god".

[bobbolink]

62. You know, I'd agree with you, but ....

it is YOUR bias.

And coming here to denigrate the beliefs of others, who are NOT biased against you, is ....

.......................

.........................

DAMAGING

[LAGC]

63. Damaging to whom?

Why won't you confront the reality of the situation?

And that is, all the negatives that religion unleashes on society.

Do you honestly not think we have too much religion in society?

Do you honestly think the Boy Scouts aren't a religious charter first and foremost with their discrimination of gays and atheists?

[bobbolink]

64. What is "NEGATIVE" is attacking people because they believe differently from you.

What is truly interesting, is that I don't see ANY of the spiritual DUers attacking YOU for not sharing the same spiritual beliefs.

Think about that.

[LAGC]

66. Why do you see it as an personal "attack?"

I have nothing against you. I agree with most of your posts on poverty and other related issues.

My problem is with religion and the damage it does to societies.

I think part of the problem here is that so many religious people are just so sensitive, they take even the slightest criticism of religion personally and get all defensive, aren't able to debate the merits of their faith, instead shrink inside of a shell and play the "we're so pesecuted" card and/or cast insults at anyone even bringing the subject up.

Why so sensitive? Religion isn't like ethnicity or sexual orientation or other things that we are BORN with. Religion is LEARNED. And it is very changeable. It's not set in stone. People have CONTROL over it. Can't you see the difference?

[bobbolink]

67. Because it IS an attack. I'm sure you can see that. Why are YOU so insistent on telling others

what to believe?

Why are YOU needing to denigrate others because they have different views?

You see, I pointed out that YOU *aren't* being attacked by them, and rather than seeing that that is true, you come back with a personal slam at me that I am "sensitive", which, to you, obviously, is a criticism.

So, here's the deal... why don't YOU become *more* sensitive, and allow others to just be who they are?

Isn't that reasonable?

Live and let live, and stop trying to dictate to others, and when they won't comply with your demands, getting critical and negative.

[LAGC]

77. I'm not telling anyone what to believe.

I'm merely questioning those who do.

If you want to believe in Sky Daddies and Miracles, that's your prerogative.

Just don't expect such acts of blind faith to go unchallenged when some of us call bullshit on your religious kin who use that very faith to discriminate against others.

[bobbolink]

84. bwahahahaha! Such entitlement!

That you think you have any right to denigrate anyone else is truly amazing.... and certainly NOT liberal or progressive, or anything having to do with democratic OR Democratic. As a matter of fact, that kind of authoritarianism has much more alignment with the RW itself.

People who believe in God can't prove the existence of God, and you can't prove the nonexistence of God. Reasonable people and people with heart give each other slack, and accept their differences with respect and common courtesy.

It is very telling that the people of faith on DU DON'T malign you and make fun of YOUR belief. DUers of faith aren't trying to convert YOU.

The hostility isn't coming from THEM.

[LAGC]

87. I notice you like to dance around the topic at hand.

Why don't you stay focused on the subject of the OP, which is: religious zealots discriminating against gays and atheists for religious reasons?

Does it really bother you that much being associated with such religious ilk? If so, maybe you should take a hard, long look in the mirror and ask yourself if you really want to be associated with such people.

People of faith wouldn't be "denigrated" if they didn't act like asshats all the time.

[bobbolink]

88. Keep kicking DUers of faith... its going to win you all kinds of HELP

It is impossible to deal with people with closed minds.

Have fun with your judgements, and vilifying of people who are/were willing to support you.

Thank you for proving my point of where the true hositility is coming from.

On that note, I'm done with all the closed minds and hostile attacks here.... you have lost support from those who cared about you. Congratulations on a job well done.

You are now added to my ignore list for baseless attacks.

Bye.

[LAGC]

89. Are you saying you're not going to vote Democratic because your religion has been slighted?

LOL. Some "principles" you have there.

Obviously, if you value your religious superstition more than you do social change, maybe you're in the wrong party after all.

Good luck with the Republicans. I'm sure they'll really do service to your poverty concerns... :eyes:

[stopbush]

90. It's not "reasonable" to imagine that beliefs based on pure fantasy

(religion) operate on the same level as do beliefs based on facts.

Sorry, that's just the way it is. Your "different views" are both ego-based and self-aggrandizing, and have no more basis in reason than do beliefs in werewolves.

BTW - live and let live is a good policy until the religious get it into their heads that their fantasy-based beliefs should form the basis of reality for the rest of us. As long as you and others keep your religion to yourselves - and by that, I mean REALLY to yourselves, the way most people keep their masturbation schedule to themselves - then there's no problem. But religion can't keep to itself, can it? Live and let live is a one-way street when it comes to religion.

[stopbush]

91. So, a person who attacks global warming deniers is personally attacking

a specific person?

Don't think so.

[mzteris]

69. Damaging?

To whom? How?

If I'm damaging "religion" then :woohoo: - the more people that hear the truth, the better.

It's not "bias" - it's cold hard facts and first hand experience.

Good people don't "need" an excuse to do good.

[bobbolink]

71. So you don't really care when you hurt other people, or drive them away, is that it?

Great "progressive" values you got there....

You also realize that it is against the rules to attackkk people for their beliefs, right?

I suppose that doesn't matter, either.

[mzteris]

95. so - when you encounter a staunch

right wing hatemonger - do you just say "oh that's okay believe what you want"?

I'm not attacking you.

I've not attacked you at all. You, however, have attacked me repeatedly for my rejection of religion.

Not that it matters to you, I suppose. Religionists always think they're right and every one who doesn't believe like them are wrong.

[LanternWaste]

93. If we replace the...

"but the damage done in the name of religion on a daily basis keeps me from doing that."

If we replace the word religion with any number of other man-made human constructs, e.g., democracy, capitalism, etc., does the same hold true?

Example...
"Maybe "you" are okay with your economic philosophy. Heck, maybe even most of the people you know are "okay" people, but by and large, the vast majority of "capitalists" do evil on a daily basis in the name of some "greed".

[mzteris]

96. and your point? n/t

[mzteris]

59. I dunno - they seem overwhelmingly right wing

republicans who are involved in this organization.

[Starry Messenger]

3. The Boy Scouts are horrible.

I wish they'd wither away.

[Zephie]

4. I've said it once and I'll say it again: my son will never be a boy scout.

[ClassWarrior]

5. Fuck some of the Boy Scout leadership. Much of the Boy Scout leadership.

Don't fuck the kids, who can really stand to gain from the excellent, values-based program -- a "movement," founder Robert Baden-Powell called it, who envisioned it as a way to bring the young of the nations together to prevent another world war.

NGU.

[donco6]

6. And those values would be - ?

That being gay precludes you from the capacity for responsible leadership? No thanks. I think we should be sparing the kids from this sort of indoctrination.

[ClassWarrior]

12. Point out where that's in the program. Not in the actions of whack-jobs.

In the program.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

14. I'm guessing your knowledge of the Scouts extends to a handful of headlines designed...

...to rile people up.

If you choose to comment, next time it'd be helpful if you knew what you were talking about.

NGU.

[stopbush]

20. It's in their Charter.

Are you not aware that the BSA went to court to preserve their right to discriminate against gays and atheists? They did, and they were granted that right by the courts.

That is how their overt discrimination against gays and atheists is "in the program." Their discrimination against gays and atheists is as FUNDAMENTAL to their program as is Jesus being god fundamental to the Xian sects.

Open discrimination against gays and atheists is a "value" that the BSA publicly fights for at every opportunity.

[ClassWarrior]

25. What did I say in my original response to the OP?? "Fuck much of BSA leadership."

You know, reading comprehension is a good thing.

Yes, the Boy Scouts OF AMERICA is seriously fucked up in many ways. And in many more ways than just the ones you've read about in the headlines. But the Scouting Movement is a good movement, as evidenced by Scouting around the world - and in some places in the U.S. as well, DESPITE the many haters affiliated with BSA.

NGU.

[donco6]

28. You can't separate the official program from their actions.

In fact, the actions are MORE visible than the official program. The message given out to all boys involved is, "Johnny's dad can't be a leader BECAUSE HE'S GAY." Ergo, now they've been taught gays cannot or should not be leaders. Pretty simple. Even a Cub Scout can pick that up.

[ClassWarrior]

30. Yes you can. There are Scouting organizations all over the planet. Not just the BSA.

I TOTALLY agree that the actions are more visible and seriously damaging. To the kids, to the movement, to the parents, to all people. Hence, my original response to your OP. "Fuck much of the BSA leadership."

:shrug:

NGU.

[donco6]

32. Sorry, I equate "Scouting" with Boy Scouts, BSA.

I didn't realize you were making a distinction with different groups - yes, these groups are great, and I would highly recommend boys and girls getting involved.

[ClassWarrior]

35. Did you know that something like 90% of Scouting leadership is volunteer?

Dads and moms and uncles and aunts and community members, who want to help kids. And like anything (Can we say the Dem Party? Can we say the church?), when progressives get in a snit and abandon it, the nut jobs take over.

Tho - like anything - there are pockets of resistance. I've been trying to find an article from a number of years ago about a troop in NY that quietly but openly accepts gay Scouts and leaders, despite much fury from BSA in Dallas. If I do later, I'll post it here.

NGU.

[donco6]

36. I was a Scout, so yeah. I'm pretty aware of how it works.

And I used to be Catholic, so I know about the struggle between the official stand, and what really happens in church. But for me, participation = support. So I'd be hard-pressed to ever recommend participation in the BSA, anywhere - even a rogue troop.

[muffin1]

7. Values like

hate and discrimination? Ummm, we don't need the Boy Scouts - kids can pick up those values at church.

[awoke_in_2003]

9. "kids can pick up those values at church"...

well played.

[hfojvt]

10. Hate? That's kinda rich considering the OP's last line

Pick up your gun and take a stand against hate!!!

[muffin1]

15. You can't be serious.

You don't find it to be a perfectly normal response to an organization who discriminates against an entire group of people - simply for who they are and who they love? An organization that tells people their morals are not up to their standards?

[hfojvt]

17. Hate may be a normal response

but that does not make it either right nor useful.

Because then it is a perfectly normal response for the hatred to be returned again.

[ClassWarrior]

13. Where did you learn them?

NGU.

[muffin1]

18. Right here on DU

from people like you who defend an organization that has a policy of not having leadership roles for 'avowed homosexuals' - did you not catch that in the article?

Yes, fuck them. Hard.

[ClassWarrior]

26. What did I say in my original response to the OP?? "Fuck much of BSA leadership."

I didn't defend any "organization." I defeneded an "excellent, values-based program." Baden-Powell's movement to bring peace to the globe.

You know, reading comprehension is a good thing.

NGU.

[muffin1]

27. Then try reading your own words.

What the fuck is "excellent" and "values-based" about teaching children that it is okay to discriminate? How many boys have seen their leaders kicked to the curb because of their orientation? And I wonder how many of those boys are GLBTQI themselves, and how they must feel when they see this shit firsthand.

I don't care what the fuck else they are teaching - systemic discrimination trumps it all.

[ClassWarrior]

31. Show me where that is in the program. Show me where that is in...

...other nations' Scouting organizations.

NGU.

[muffin1]

33. This was in the article referenced in the OP.

We do have a policy that avowed gays and atheists are not allowed to be a registered leader or member of Boy Scouts of America," said Pat Currie, Scout executive with the Circle Ten Council. "It's a longstanding policy."


Is that their "official" policy written in some manual? I have no idea, and don't have time to research it now. But I have a feeling you are just playing games, anyway.

Everyone else on this thread seems to know how bigoted they are. It's pretty much common knowledge among everybody I know. Why the fervent BSA love from you?

[ClassWarrior]

37. So you admit you don't know what you're talking about?

"I have no idea, and don't have time to research it now."

Again, I claim no love for any "organization," and especially not the BSA. Again, my first response to the OP was, "Fuck much of the Boy Scouts leadership." That'd be the BSA. As in, "Fuck much of the BSA." No, I didn't use the exact words, but neither did the founders when they wrote separation of church and state into the Constitution.

:eyes:

NGU.

[muffin1]

38. I told you that I have no idea if it's WRITTEN IN ANY MANUAL.

By their own admission IN THE ARTICLE, it is a LONG STANDING POLICY of the BSA to not allow 'avowed homosexuals'. :puke:

Yes, you said 'fuck much of the Boy Scout leadership" - but you are STILL DEFENDING the organization that let's them get away with discrimination and even talk about the discrimination openly.

Replace the word "gay" with "black" in the OP and the article itself. Would you still say they do many good works, blah, blah, blah...?

:eyes: right back atcha.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClassWarrior]

54. So even though I say the BSA is fucked up, I'm defending the BSA? Fail.

NGU.

[Starry Messenger]

39. From BSALEGAL

http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp

"Duty to God"

In the Scout Oath, a Scout promises to do his “duty to God,” and in the Scout Law he promises to be “reverent.”

The Boy Scout Handbook (11th ed.) explains a Scouts’ “duty to God” as “Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.”

The Handbook explains “reverent” as “A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.”

All levels of advancement in the Scouting program have requirements recognizing “duty to God”:

● Bobcat Cub Scout
A boy is required to promise to do his best to do his “duty to God,” which means “Put God first. Do what you know God wants you to do.”

● Wolf Cub Scout
A boy is required to “alk with your folks about what they believe is their duty to God,” “ive some ideas on how you can practice or demonstrate your religious beliefs,” and “ind out how you can help your church, synagogue, or religious fellowship.”

● Bear Cub Scout
A boy is required to “

ractice your religion as you are taught in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious community” or “arn the religious emblem of your faith.”

● Webelos Scout
A boy is required to either “arn the religious emblem of your faith” or do two of the following:

“Attend the church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious organization of your choice, talk with your religious leader about your beliefs, and tell your family and Webelos den leader about what you learned.”;

“Tell how your religious beliefs fit in with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, Discuss this with your family and Webelos den leader: What character-building traits do your beliefs and the Scout Oath and Scout Law have in common?”;

“With your religious leader, discuss and write down two things you think will help you draw nearer to God. Do these things.”;

“Pray to God or meditate reverently each day as taught by your family, and by your church, synagogue, or religious group. Do this for at least one month.”;

“Under the direction of your religious leader, do an act of service for someone else. Talk about your service with your family and Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel.”; or

“List at least two ways you believe you have lived according to your religious beliefs.”

● First Class Boy Scout
A boy is required to “ead your patrol in saying grace at the meals . . . .”

● Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle Boy Scouts
A boy is required to “emonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath . . . and Scout Law in your everyday life.”


Policies

● Youth and Adult Volunteers
Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. Accordingly, youth members and adult volunteer leaders of Boy Scouts of America obligate themselves to do their duty to God and be reverent as embodied in the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Leaders also must subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle. Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys. Because of Scouting’s methods and beliefs, Scouting does not accept atheists and agnostics as members or adult volunteer leaders.

● Employment
With respect to positions limited to professional Scouters or, because of their close relationship to the mission of Scouting, positions limited to registered members of the Boy Scouts of America, acceptance of the Declaration of Religious Principle, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law is required. Accordingly, in the exercise of their constitutional right to bring the values of Scouting to youth members, the Boy Scouts of America will not employ atheists, agnostics, known or avowed homosexuals, or others as professional Scouters or in other capacities in which such employment would tend to interfere with the mission of reinforcing the values of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law in young people.

● Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, § 1, cl. 1

“The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.”

● Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, § 1, cls. 2-4.
“The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading ‘Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.’”

“In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.”

“Only persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.”


Cases

● Randall v. Orange County Council, Boy Scouts of America, 952 P.2d 261 (Cal. 1998)
Two atheist boys refused to recite the duty to God portion of the Cub Scout or Boy Scout Promise, or do their duty to God. The boys sued, and the Orange County Superior Court granted an injunction barring the boys’ exclusion from the program. On appeal, the California Supreme Court reversed, holding that Boy Scouts are not covered “business establishments” for purposes of the Unruh Civil Rights Act and could not be required under California law to change its duty to God requirements with respect to youth members.

● Seabourn v. Coronado Area Council, 891 P.2d 385 (Kan. 1995)
A former Assistant Scoutmaster who refused to do his duty to God sued the Coronado Area Council alleging a violation of the Kansas Act Against Discrimination when his adult registration was terminated. The Riley County District Court entered summary judgment against the Assistant Scoutmaster, and he appealed. The Kansas Supreme Court held that Boy Scouts of America is not “public accommodation” within meaning of Kansas Act Against Discrimination and, therefore, Kansas law could not force Boy Scouts to change the duty to God requirements with respect to adult leaders.

● Welsh v. Boy Scouts of America, 787 F. Supp. 1511 (N.D. Ill. 1992), 993 F.2d 1267 (7th Cir.), cert. denied, 510 U.S. 1012 (1993)
An agnostic parent and son who would not affirm their duty to God sued after they would not be admitted. The District Court held that Boy Scouts is not a place of public accommodation within the meaning of Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and denied plaintiffs’ relief. On appeal, the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed, holding that: (1) Scouting is not a place of public accommodation for purposes of Title II, and (2) even if it were, Scouting would fall within private club exception to Title II.

Copyright 2006 on behalf of the Boy Scouts of America

The OP was in reference strictly to BSA, so the strawman of "other nations Scouting orgs" doesn't need to be addressed.

[muffin1]

40. Thank you, thank you, thank you

Now I can go get ready for work. Holy hell. :)

[Starry Messenger]

41. Working on a Sunday?

Heathen. ;) No problem. I had family in BSA and we fought about this, so I knew where to look.

[muffin1]

44. Yes, girl...

it's just a pet-sitting job, but I guess that counts, right? Have a great day!:D

[HEyHEY]

79. Hey, this is hate, I agree... but that doesn't mean we give up

Alot of the other shit the scouts revolve around ARE good. We just now need to work on their bigotry.

[Terra Alta]

11. This comes at a really bad time

with the recent suicides of several gay teens. Yes, I agree -- fuck the Boy Scouts.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. Boy Scouts were selling something or other in front of a supermarket recently

My wife told the father manning the booth that we don't support bigotry with our money.

The whole organization is fucking rotten to the core - pervasive homophobia all the way down. It's worthless.

[stopbush]

21. Same here. The little brown shirts were out in front of my Ralph's store

asking for donations.

I looked right at one kid and his mom as they asked me for money and said, "I'll donate to the scouts the day that your organization stops discriminating against atheists and gays. If you aren't aware of the intolerance the scouts are promoting, I suggest you ask your scout leader about it."

[donco6]

34. Good for you.

:toast:

[Dreamer Tatum]

45. Way to involve children in an adult matter.

Sheesh. Feel like a big bad dude now?

[Occulus]

65. The BSA instills that bigotry at an early age, so yes, it was well-done.

The kids are already involved and being taught that gays cannot be leaders. They need to learn differently now, and they need to learn that it isn't at all right.

[stopbush]

68. So fucking what? Those kids parent's have them involved in an organization

that openly discriminates against atheists and gays. I'd make the same comment with the kids present if the BSA openly discriminated against blacks. Wouldn't you?

If the parents don't have the decency to treat an adult matter like tolerant adults, then they're not off limits to having something said within earshot of their kids when they bring them into a public space and accost others for $ to support their discriminatory organization.

Fuck their parents who don't have the decency to consider such discrimination to be a deal breaker when it comes to putting their kids in scouting. They are telling their kids that it's OK to discriminate against people.

The correct response would be for ALL good parents to refuse to enroll their kids in anything the BSA touches until they change their discriminatory policies against atheists and gays. That would get the BSA to change.

Following your line of reasoning, it's OK for parents to have a membership to a country club that discriminates against blacks because the pool is nice and clean and the kids are really, really learning about golf from the club pro. The discrimination is something we don't talk about in polite society.

[Dreamer Tatum]

83. My line of reasoning is to leave children out of it.

I would go to the bother of writing, "How would you like it if..." but an honest assessment of counterfactuals is probably beyond you.

Please, go back to verbally abusing children whose parents you dislike. They have it coming.

[stopbush]

86. If one feels the need to confront such parents, when does one do so?

How does one know a parent has their kid in scouting unless one happens to run into the kid in uniform with their parent in some public setting, as I did? Most parents don't walk around with a badge saying, "My kid's a scout, but he's safe at home - why not take this opportunity to ask me why I'm intolerant to gays?"

No, these parents are either 1. unaware of the BSA's open intolerance or 2. aware of it, and fine with it to the point that they'll allow their kids to join the intolerant BSA. Parents who fall into category 1 need to be made aware of the intolerance. Parents who fall into category 2 need to be called out, especially when they assume that they're safe in a public setting because they know that most people won't call them on their support of intolerance because one just doesn't do such things in polite society.

BTW - how is it more abusive of kids to call their parents out in front of them on the BSA's intolerance than it is to teach these kids through scouting that intolerance against atheists and gays is OK?

[Dreamer Tatum]

94. "Sorry I kicked the shit out of you, kid. I just don't know who your Dad is."

Good grief.

[revolution breeze]

80. Irony.

Boy Scouts is supposed to be an organization for "boys" yet it seems that the mothers are much more involved than the fathers. Whenever I see them selling popcorn or bagging groceries for donations, they supervising individuals are almost always women.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FourScore]

23. That's why my boys will never be in their fucking organization! n/t

[Stevenmarc]

42. Does this come as a surprise considering the Mormon infiltration of the BSA

[crazyjoe]

43. I wonder what Obama would say about this, I mean it is very similar

to DADT, isn't it? Would he appear hypocritical if he came out against the boy scouts for doing the exact same thing he is doing with the military? BTW, the boy scouts do accept fed money, that should be cut off immediately!!!

[revolution breeze]

47. The Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are becoming so irrelevant

When I was a kid back in the 70s, we had so many girls in the Scouts from our school, we had two troops, and it was the same with the boys. We all were so proud to wear our uniforms to school on meeting days. I can't tell you when the last time I saw a scout in uniforms was. Of my three daughters, only one considered becoming a scout and that lasted about half a year.

[immoderate]

48. It's sad. I had great experiences and learned a lot in the scouts.

My first troop was sponsored by a synagogue. The good parts were that they were heavily into the education activities of scouting. Our weekly meetings and monthly camping trips were all focused on "advancement," that is, learning the skills to move up in rank. These were the "CCP" (camping, cooking and pioneering) skills. We went camping every month in all weather, and spent summers lashing together a little village on a plot of land at Ten Mile River scout camp, including a bridge!

The down side was that the Scoutmaster, who was observant, had all scouts observing Sabbath and dietary rules, whether Jewish or not. Attendance was required at three religious services a day. And you weren't allowed to tie a knot, or cut a rope, or build a fire from Friday sundown through Saturday.

A great strength was the scouting committee, a group of fathers, mostly WWII vets, (some were rangers) who were not so happy with the religious practices. We split off and formed another (secular) troop. It was great until the wave of kids outgrew scouting. It wasn't the scouting, it was competition with social activities, of which scouting had none. (Whatever energy I had for scouting was, with no conscious effort, totally redirected towards getting laid.)

There were gay scouts in both troops. I wasn't aware of this much when I was there. We could all tie 21 knots!

I don't support or recommend scouting anymore, because of the bigotry. OTH, I hold high the educational model and activities I participated in. I would like to see a similar pioneering program instituted to serve as educational alternatives for middle school aged children.

--imm

[revolution breeze]

50. But look at how much acceptance was nurtured

No Gentile parents screaming "He is trying to turn our son into a Jew!" It sounds like Scouts was such a valuable experience in your life. That is what Scouting should be about.

[KatyaR]

55. Girl Scouts is working to bring the organization into the 21st century.

New programs, or "journeys" are being introduced. Girls can participate in many different ways, not just by camping and earning badges; included in that is an emphasis on science, technology, electronics, and math (STEM). There is an emphasis on community service and the environment. Uniforms are much more casual, to fit in with today's styles. The "troops" have much more of a say in how they are organized and operate and in what kind of activities they will offer. If a girl is not able or does not want to be in a formal troop, she can participate by being a "Juliette," attending and participating in as many or few events as she wishes.

As for religion, there are activities/badges that can be earned, but they are NOT required. The Girl Scout Promise says:

On my honor, I will try:
To serve God* and my country,
To help people at all times,
And to live by the Girl Scout Law.

(* The word "God" can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on one's spiritual beliefs. When reciting the Girl Scout Promise, it is OK to replace the word "God" with whatever word your spiritual beliefs dictate.)

I can't tell you how shocked I was to receive an email from a local BSA employee that had a sig line stating their belief in Christ. GSUSA believes that religion is your own business, and that type of thing would never be acceptable from a Girl Scout staffer.

[HEyHEY]

78. Does he now get a merrit badge for being discriminated against?

Actually, making such badges and handing them out would be a good way to protest this.

[Le Taz Hot]

81. I'm not a parent but would be interested in knowing

how parents handle or have handled this. What to do if your child is getting tremendous peer pressure to join this homophobic outfit yet you know what you know about them.

[mwooldri]

92. How would one form a Scout troop affiliated with the UK Scouting Organisation?

Boys and girls can join the same group, religion is definitely not a key focus, and gay people are actively welcomed.

If there was a Scouting group here in the US that was accessible to us then I'd definitely encourage my son to join (as well as my nieces and nephews) - as long as it was not directly affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America. The UK organization has changed with the times. America - catch up!