Do you really think you earned what you have?

[SmileyRose]

I'm not so sure I have.

This has been rolling around in my head for some time now and this thread kind of solidified the thoughts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9372390


Does my labor alone REALLY create enough wealth to pay for the benefits I enjoy?

My grandfather worked outside the home at hard physical labor, grandma worked at home when there were few conveniences and raising 3 kids and keeping house really was a full time backbreaking job in itself. The only reason they ever owned a single family detached home is because grandpa's boss gave them a piece of his land and sent the crew over to help build the house (that they ordered from Sears) They did not have indoor plumbing or electric until I was old enough to remember their excitement. They worked just as hard if not harder, and their benefits (and expectations) were much smaller.


My part of the world is now rich enough to support roads, schools, clean water and sanitary sewage. Telephones, cellphones, reliable power, cutting edge medical care facilities, enormous groceries and huge shopping malls. If I have the cash to spend I can obtain almost anything I want from anywhere in the world. In my world, the expectation for living standard of the poorest among us exceeds what my grandparents had after a lifetime of hard labor. My house is considered small, but it is bigger than the house my grandparents raised 3 boys in. And there is no way any amount of hard work would get my grandparents electric everything, TWO cars, pay TV and a vacation every 5 or 6 years that involves driving a long distance or flying. My grandma did not color her hair because she could not afford to do so, and neither could anyone else.


The obvious difference is globalism. Could I afford to eat oranges in January, or own and power up my dryer if every business all along the complicated chain were good stewards of the environment and treated all workers by American standards? Could our society even afford the basics of sanitary plumbing if it weren't for cheap PVC, steal or concrete sewage and water pipes if everyone along the chain from raw material to installation were treated well?

I have chosen to live in a way that tries in live in this modern world but limits how much my lifestyle hurts the environment or exploits workers. But I have to recognize that just firing up the internet or taking a shower involves exploitation of someone, somewhere around the world.




edit for typos

[pipi_k]

1. Maybe it's a cooperative effort...

I earned some of what I have, someone else worked so I could have what I have...

Someone else earned part of what they have, and I worked so that person can have what he has


Sounds sort of friendly that way... :)

[BeFree]

2. Really, we have it made

Capitalism has made all this possible. Being able to borrow and all that.

Problem is, if everyone in the world lived as richly as the common American, there would be nothing left to the natural world.

It is good that you see your place, Smiley. Not many do.

[Hamlette]

3. No, I didn't. Not nearly.

I did everything right, went to college etc and I worked hard BUT I would be no where near where I am today if I had not been born to white middle class Americans which was pure luck.

Thread drift alert: I've always thought that democrats are ppl who recognize this and are grateful. They understand that it is in our self interest to help others because we have been lucky enough to have such bounty and because it will make for a better society that will benefit us.

The republicans believe they not only earned everything they have, they would have earned more if it were not for XXX (fill in the blank, liberals, blacks, Muslims, taxes etc).

Democrats are grateful for what we have, republicans feel entitled and resentful.

[Ishoutandscream2]

22. +1. I'm right there with you, and great post

I really don't know where I would be if it hadn't been for my background and people helping me. "Democrats are grateful, Republicans feel entitled and resentful." Excellent post.

[hfojvt]

35. you make it sound like all Democrats are rich

I was born to white middle class Americans too, but where I am today is unmarried and childless, with two university degrees and working as a part time janitor.

Other than my one decent job for the Military Industrial Complex, which I sorta foolishly quit after a year, I have mostly worked the lowest paying jobs. So for the most part, I have worked for what I have, and for many years was working two jobs. Heck, even now I sort of have five part-time jobs only one of which pays me - janitor, Kiwanis VP, Democratic Headquarters worker, Democratic treasurer (report is due tomorrow), and waterboard member.

I believe that I might have gotten a decent job at the Kraft plant if I had been hispanic or female. That seems to me to be a fact, although you never know, since they did hire four white guys (or more, including other shifts), but they did have a corporate policy for ethnic and gender balance. That does not make me a Republican, but I can sympathize with white guys who feel that their ethnicity and gender has held them back.

[Hamlette]

42. maybe

but as a woman I know first hand that I have been discriminated against in the work place my whole life. I actually don't believe I was given ANY favors because of my gender, but for the sake of argument, let's say I was given the job in the first place because I'm a woman. After that? I got to sit and watch the men get promoted over me. In my current job? I've been here for 13 years. My boss? Been here 4 years. I have 34 years experience, he has 5 or 6.

I don't buy your "ethnicity and gender holds white guys back" bull shit for one minute. Look at the studies on how children see whites and blacks or how blacks get turned down for hotel rooms (for gawd's sake) where whites do not. We whites have every advantage. And you men have more than us women. You can feel sorry for yourself and become resentful or you can compare yourself to blacks born in poor African nations and be thankful for what you have.

IMHO.

[tularetom]

4. Don't feel guilty for having been born where and when you were

We've seen enormous changes in our lifetime.

I lived with my grandparents for a few years in the 40's while my dad and mom were serving in WWII. They had just gotten electricity 2 or 3 years before I was born (courtesy of a government program, TVA) and they still raised their own animals for food. My grandfather owned a feed store and he also farmed some acreage at home. I can remember him using a horse drawn plow and I can remember helping (really watching) as my grandma butchered hogs.

Another government program (the GI bill) helped my dad get through college and acquire the skills he needed to become part of the emerging middle class in this country. Although he was an orphan, he was assisted by the taxpayers to improve his lot in life and be productive.

Our generation had it relatively easy. My military service also enabled me to get a college degree and learn a profession but neither I nor my siblings had to experience the difficulties faced by previous generations of our family.

And of course there is no comparison with what people in less developed parts of the world have to put up with.

Did we do anything to "earn" the relative ease we live with today? Hell no we didn't. It's a roll of the dice and I'm very grateful for how things turned out for me.

[hfojvt]

5. the other obvious difference is technology

We can plow 160 acres much more quickly than in the past, and produce much greater yields. We have machines that can produce and package over 10,000 cases in a ten hour shift.

We had electricity and cars back in the 1950s before there was very much globalism.

One other difference is the past as well. We do not have to build as many houses because so many have already been built. Highways and phone lines and water and sewer lines. In many places, the infrastructure is long established. That gives our generations a leg up. The current generation is always described as a midgit standing on the shoulders of a giant.

[SmileyRose]

16. Along with other comments in the thread this is a very good point

Probably a combination of luck of the draw and the fact my lifestyle is built on the work of generations before me.

[OutNow]

6. Excellent Question

I know I have personally benefited from living in the USA, the world power that pushes other countries and peoples around at whim.

Globalization means many things, including a more level playing field. This means the standard of living will get better for many people (not all of course) in China, Brazil, etc. and the standard of living in the USA will decline.

For many years some of my friends have consciously avoided some of the trappings of the consumer society by living a "simpler" life. It's taken me 60 years to even begin to understand the relationship between my life and the impact on the rest of the world, but I'm trying to emulate this simpler lifestyle where friendships and walks in the woods are more important than the latest cell phone or bigger house or more expensive car.

[stray cat]

7. Yes absolutely, some people have been given more than I and some less

in terms of help and environment. However, I won't minimize the effort and 100 hour work weeks at times it has taken to get here.

[AmandaMae]

8. So far? Not at all. I recognize my privilege and when I get out of college

I plan to work the rest of my life working hard and striving to make a difference. But can I ever really "earn" all the benefits I have grown up always knowing? I don't think so.

[lunatica]

9. We pay taxes for the improved living conditions

Why would 'earning' it be a question? Or am I missing the point?

[OlympicBrian]

10. Perhaps the most significant, undiscussed issue

An article related to the implicit assumption in your posting that suggests we will continue to be able to support being "rich enough to ..."

America's Income Defense Industry
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-winters/americas-income-defense-i_b_772723.html

[Ginto]

11. The entire "Amurikan" way of life has to be reassessed.

Smaller homes. A return to the extended family living under one roof. Just less "stuff."

[Primitive Mind]

13. Sorry, it's called freedom

If people want to live in a gigantic house with lot's of stuff and they can pay for it, that's their right.

I want a house big enough to entertain my family and freinds, on enough land to put some horses on it. Is that too big, or too much? If so, why?

[SmileyRose]

14. You did not understand the post

and I am not surprised.

[Primitive Mind]

17. I am equally sure I did understand.

I am perhaps unfamiliar with what he said translating into..."Amurikans" are going to have to live in smaller housing that will have to be multi-generational. Probably, that reduction in living space will also mean the housing will be on less or no land.

If there is some other way to translate what the post I replied to, then please elucidate.

[Ginto]

23. More toward the Japanese or European way of life if you are familiar with those.

Much better distributing of income. Most everyone can LIVE, but not extravagantly. Houses tend to be taller, but have a much smaller footprint and are passed down through the generations.

[Primitive Mind]

28. I am posting from Germany.

I was recently in Italy. So, yes I am familiar. There is not that many reasons that we have to live in the same manner, and many reasons why we do not. Their shops keep some odd hours. You can't buy a dinner in a lot of places before 1730, as they don't start until then.

When you stay in a european hotel over here, it will set you back $147. For that you get a double bed, a standup shower, a toilet that doesn't work right, maybe a TV, and internet access is extra and paid for in time blocks.

I am near the Mosul River in Germany, and I must admit, I am curious as to why the hillsides haven't been stepped. It seems that they could get a better yield on their grape harvest for example if they weren't planted on such steep hills. By the way, I recommend Bernkastel if you look to buy some wine here. That village has some truly excellent shops.

In Italy, the shops keep hours that would make a banker blush. The locals may have looked at all those expensive clothes in the fashion shops, but they bought from the trucks that showed up on market day, that was Thursday in Sacile.

I'm rambling a bit but, I'm just trying to show that I do know Europe a bit.

[DireStrike]

25. I think the poster was talking about the original post

Rather than the reply that you replied to.

You may have been addressing just the reply with no mind towards the point raised in the OP, which would be understandable.

[SmileyRose]

27. Oops yes you are right.

I was reading in the long form and didn't notice it was a reply to a reply.

My apologies to Primitive Mind.

[Primitive Mind]

29. None necessary,

I don't take offense very easily. I hope you did not take what I said to be offensive.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. What an extremely appropriate username.

[Dreamer Tatum]

32. We'll get right on that.

:eyes:

[Ginto]

34. And the typical "Amurikan" response. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

36. What is an "Amurikan"?

I'm guessing it's anyone who fails to agree with you.

Don't worry, sweetheart. One day the world will live under your rule. :eyes:

[Ginto]

44. Let me describe them then.

Living in McMansions. Eating 1 1b bacon cheeseburgers with extra mayo and extra bacon (wouldn't want anything healthy, that would be for those sissy Europeans). Driving big gas guzzlers so they can look "cool" or feel important. And most importantly, not listening to history or the rest of the world because after-all, they know better.

[Mudoria]

45. When I see a poster using "Amurikan" or some variation thereof

I just skip over the post. Nothing noteworthy to read or intelligence to be found there.

[Ginto]

46. See post 44 for a better description.

Incidentally, I was a student at Chapel Hill. I do miss it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

47. It usually indicates low self-worth

as expressed perfectly by "Ginto:" worried over how they will look to Europeans who have this PERFECT lifestyle that all "Amurkians" should aspire toward.

Bullshit.

[Primitive Mind]

12. Yep, pretty much

Look, we can grouse over the fact that no other generation has ever lived in such an age of wonders as this one. It is both true and good that we have inheirited and hopefully built upon what was left to us by previous generations.

However, that goes the world over. A herdsman in Africa that inheirited his land from his father can work to expand his wealth, make improvements to the land and the flock, and try to leave something with more value to his son.

As far as what I have earned. Of, things and circumstance, yes? My actions, good and bad have led to the life and posessions I have today. Other non-material things, I can only say I am graced.

[2nd_try]

30. Interesting analogy

We all hopefully have benefited from family and societal efforts. I don't see this as a reason to feel guilt. I see it as a reason to keep the cycle going for te benefit of our children. Who doesn't want to offer our kids a better world...
The African herdsman analogy took me back to a lecture I heard several years back concerning better living conditions on a global scale. It was about unintended consequences. The talk centered on an undeveloped area of Africa. This area had no meaningful influx of information or technology from the developed world. They were living largely as they had for a thousand years. A plan was put forth to help this region improve it's living conditions. The first phase was the need for electricity. The only affordable method of needed capacity and which could be fueled locally was a coal power plant. This was dismissed by the UN due to carbon output. That seems reasonable to us sitting here in the developed world. However, reasoning left them to continue burning wood and animal dung. In essence a well meaning UN wrote these people off. The generational benefits we enjoy remains so painfully slow in such areas as to be unmeasurable.

I'm uncomfortable with the UN's decision on this. Sorry for the lack of details, I just recall being bothered by this part of the talk. I believe any and all stands we take have to consider, even abstractly how they can affect the most vulnerable on this rock. I'd like to see the globe benefit as we have from our ancestor's efforts.

[ixion]

15. Yes, I have. Am I going to feel guilty for working my a** off for the last 20 years

nope, not even.

[nashville_brook]

18. point well taken!

[VioletLake]

19. No, but I try to be worthy of it. nt

[Phentex]

24. My answer is no, but I deserve it, lol...

after surviving my childhood and young adult life...

[whoneedstickets]

20. I got lots of help and had some great luck.....and avoided bad.

No successful person can say they got where they are without some help (family, mentoring) and a bit of luck (right-place, right time) while avoiding catastrophe (illness, accident).

As the child of an unsupported single mom, I didn't start out at the top.

[WinkyDink]

21. Yes. Thirty years each, husband and I, teaching, spending UNTOLD HOURS outside of work planning;

grading; writing curriculum; studying for the MANDATED requisite credit-hours to attain full state certification; my working as an advisor to the newspaper, Scholastic Scrimmage, and FTA, plus coaching basketball; gaining both an M.Ed. plus Guidance Counselor Certification.
Starting below $7,000/yr and not earning above $65,000.

So YES, I think I earned what I have. Don't misunderstand: we live well, and have no complaints!

[Greyhound]

26. I think the question itself indicates the fundamental issue. We have been so conditioned for so long

to accept that most of what we do, the product of our labor, is 'due' to the parasite class. We simply do not have an understanding of what the aggregate of that extraction costs us.

One top level example is the so-called financial industry. It makes nothing, is an entirely extractive sector that now constitutes 30% - 40% of our national economic activity. That is just one of the myriad hidden taxes we pay to support a class that is of no benefit to the collective 'us'.

[Dreamer Tatum]

31. YES. nt

[Rage for Order]

33. Yes indeed

I've been working since I was 15 years old, and I lied about my age to get that job (told them I was 16...this was pre-internet-background-check days). Of course, before that I cut grass in the summers, so I probably started working when I was 11 or 12.

[RagAss]

37. All is Dependent Arising.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. I suspect that ideas like "earn" and "deserve" have little base in reality. -nt

[riderinthestorm]

40. Yes.

I started working at 11 years old (caddying), and my husband started at 10 (working as a dishwasher in a restaurant). I've never stopped. I still work 80+ hours/week (I'm 50), my husband works more (he has more energy at 54 - LOL).

While we have used our country's infrastructure (roads, water, sewer, phone lines etc.) to get to our current place, we're also paid for those too with our taxes. We're farmers who take very little from "society" and do our level best to give back more than we take.

I have no guilt over what we take, or give back, in our community.

[johnaries]

41. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." nt

[Obamanaut]

43. yes. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Did Payton Manning earn his super bowl ring?

He was only part of a team, after all.

The US society was built over time. Each of us derives benefit from that collective effort.

Anyone who earns a wage in the private sector, gets only a portion of the value that their labor creates. In that sense, I've earned more than what I have gotten, and have thus been exploited. The question is, like the blockers who work for Payton Manning, if that exploitation has been a net detriment.

[Barack_America]

49. Absolutely not.

I have been extremely fortunate, particularly when it comes to government funding to support my education.

I have been given much from the public trough and I intend to pay it back.

[Jim__]

50. The obvious difference is globalism?

I think a more obvious difference is technology. And globalism isn't going to improve the lives of most Americans - it's going to enslave us.

[SOS]

51. No

But as we are on the of losing everything we worked for over 30 years, perhaps I
should revisit this question in 2011.