Let me try once more to help you understand, appreciate, even respect the Afghan people and cultures

[ConsAreLiars]

An almost impossible objective, given the mass media campaign that tries to portray every primitive. misogynist, tribalist atrocity as characteristic and descriptive of everyday Afghanistan. although such crimes can be found on every continent (Antarctica and maybe Australia excepted), and are far more frequent in Hindu but actually also equally tolerant India.

An almost impossible goal. After all, from magazine covers and "war reporting," you already know the the people of Afghanistan, at least all the males. are DEMONS. Gooks, ragheads, jihadis, jooz, Huns, Spics, Japs, Micks, whatever, and well, ni**ers and sand-ni**ers, of course. Pick the one the best matches your way of viewing the people in Afghanistan who resist the occupying armies. Or name the one you use.

My experiences there were well before the US began importing and arming bin Laden type fundie crazies. My companion and I never saw even a hint of the attitudes the US later fostered, although we got a hint in US-allied Turkey, a warning in US-despot controlled Iran, and had an unpleasant encounter in Pakistan.

My companion, female, tied a kerchief over some of her hair when we ferried across the Dardanelles. Blue jeans and the rest might have seen her hassled in Zaragoza or denied entry to the Vatican, but we were welcomed and treated as guests almost everywhere we traveled. We never went first or even tourist class, if there was even such an option. The diplomats lived in their own bubble-world and got there somehow. But the van we took to the border and then from the border to Herat, and the one-per-day bus we took to Kandahar and then to Kabul were just one step up from walking, Not a tourist bus. None from outside the borders except us. Never hassled even a bit.

We were treated as welcome guests, not intruders or aliens or pagans or heathens or unbelievers or goyim or infidels everywhere we went. Guests, welcome ones, time after time. This is one fact you need to see. Before the US began importing the truly insane zealot monsters, it was a very alien world, but with its own capacity to change. Engels described the culture as moderate and tolerant in the 1850's, That was what I encountered in 1970. Stepping into Afghanistan was for us stepping into another planet, but not a hostile one, just a very different one where were were greeted and treated as guests.

Another reality. Very much another reality. Very much another world. Mind-boggling other. Made reading sci-fi alternate universes good prep.

But it was a world open to and undergoing gradual change. That was before the US brought in the fundie murderers and capitalist profiteers. What a crying shame and global tragedy that became. The people of Afghanistan were brutalized for decades as a result. And the US funded pawns turned out to be as evil and depraved and corrupt as were needed and supported by the Great Gamers every where on this planet.

We were never asked to pay one Afghani, about a penny then, in bribes to pass by any bureaucrat or open any door. Never even a hint that such pay-for-more-privileges was even available. Instead we were invited to share what they valued, everything from a disk of Afghan Black at the customs post on the Iran border to insisting we climb up onto the few bleacher seats at a buzkashi contest in Kabul.

The Us has now created a very different world there than the one we experienced, one that mirrors the US -- brutal, venal, greedy, corrupt, amoral, religiously insane, intolerant, fear-driven, stupid, ignorant.

The only hope for them, as for us, is knowing that those words describe the overlords there and here, and not the people here and there, and if maybe them there can take one step and us here another, and we, here and all across the planet, yet another, we might defeat them somehow.

There is that anthem, telling the basic truth, "People Have the Power." And the other game of Divide and Conquer. The always question of "Which Side Are You On."

[aquart]

1. Well, I know someone who just got back.

The good people you met still exist, still share what very little they have, still treat guests and visitors with great courtesy. But what has that to do with war? My friend is now saying she doesn't ever want to go to another "shithole" again. And she loves those people.

Blame outsiders for every bad thing if you feel like it. But get real. Afghanistan is a mineral treasure trove. There are going to be outsiders. We were simply mistaken in believing they would be us. Badly and arrogantly mistaken. I thought it would be China, but it looks like Iran will slither into place quite nicely, doing business while our remaining soldiers die.

Here's a bright spot for you: I just saw this Tweet from a young Iranian man I follow. He does IT and he's back in Kabul for the second time in a few months.

jadi

Wow. In the customers site a local female engineer is hired and working. This is a good improvement for Afghanistan. about 4 hours ago via Choqok

[ConsAreLiars]

7. I saw signs of a trend toward acceptance of women as equals even way back then.

Although walking the streets of Herat on day one and seeing head-to-toe covering of all women was even more other-worldish than the fact that horsepower was provided by horses and burros,

But first, as my narrative describes, we never noticed my companion being harassed or even relegated to secondary status. We were both treated with respect, as guests. Second is that the Burka was not mandatory. Tribal nomads, as the famous Afghan Girl photo illustrates, were exempt, as were the wealthier members of the Elite in Kabul who did deals with foreigners, bring in some cash for the king, which got spread among tribal chiefs as proof of his utility.

Here's a photo of PDPA leaders in 1978, before the US began bringing in the REALLY mad dog religious zealots:



The point is that there was change taking place, and that the US bringing in and arming Wahhabi nutters from Saudi Arabia and thereabout caused a major setback.

RAWA argues that, a simple fact of history, but further argues that the 2001 invasion and occupation have now caused even more suffering, with plenty of evidence about how.

[cilla4progress]

2. Our family hosted an Afghan student (17 yo)

last year - a lovely, kind, gentle girl. Terrible program, in hindsight: State Dept. brings these high school age kids over here to try to sway them into thinking the US is great - not the infidel some of their propaganda tells them...then requires them to return home! For a 17 year old girl who rarely gets to leave the house in Jalalabad, and had to jump out windows over the years to attend school, and whose family were refugees to Pakistan during the Taliban times and who lived among bomb blasts and airstrikes....sending her back to that after a year of freedom, food, education - it was just too much! So...she defected to Canada on her way home to Afghanistan (literally, from the motel the night before her flight!).

Goddess bless her...she is doing reasonably well there, living with a relative...but, as you already know, Afghans and Muslims - they are families just like us, who want to live, love and revel in their families in peace and comfort.

[ConsAreLiars]

10. Thank you for opening your home and heart.

And good for her, and I suspect, good for you, that she was able escape those (both sides) that would regard her as useful chattel.

After leaving Afghanistan we had a very interesting half-day conversation with an 18-year old orphaned and British educated Pushtun Afghan. Among the other things he taught us, his love for his home and land was clearly as strong as anyone's for theirs. Better times, of course.

But before the Monsters initiated their invasion and occupation, I attended an anti-war rally and a local college student from Afghanistan spoke about her love of her country and its cultures, about its beauty.

We had been there in two Augusts, not the prettiest times in the Northern Hemisphere generally, and nothing I had seen would have been described as other than barren. So I looked around and found Luke Powell's photos, like the one on this page and many more following: http://avalon.unomaha.edu/afghan/afghanistan/A15.HTM

As a kid growing up in these years, maybe she never will never experience the longing and love for their home and culture and land that these two shared, but maybe one day the people there will once more push out the imperialist monsters, reject the poisons within, and find their own way.

[cilla4progress]

16. No, she DOES love her people and her country.

It's just impossible for her to live there. I hope her family there is OK. I would love for her to be able to bring them to Canada. I'm so impressed with how welcoming Canada has been to her. She says there are many immigrants from Mexico and Latin America, as well. Apparently, Canada is just a welcoming country overall (e.g., Randy Quaid and wife!).

We look forward to visiting our daughter in Toronto one day, not to far off. Something we might never have done, had she gone home.

Thank you.

[cilla4progress]

17. Also, thank you for the photos!

Impresses me even more with the cultural acclimation required of my Afghan daughter, when she came to the West to live!

[felix_numinous]

3. Thank you for posting this.

There are such good people everywhere. It is not these people who need to be defeated but the ones responsible for ruining so many countries. The 21st century will be unbelievably brutal unless peaceful people everywhere band together somehow.

[ConsAreLiars]

4. kick (nt)

[pipoman]

5. Yep,

Afghanistan was a real bastion of peace up until now, huh? There is a name, I believe, for self loathing. There is also a name for a loathing of a people weather or not those people are others or our own.

[ConsAreLiars]

6. Huh?

Not sure what you are going on about. Is there some point you are trying to make or some facts you would like to add from your experience that suggest mine was not valid or characteristic?

"Weather or not" what??? Care to make a coherent statement about what you actually believe or your factual claims? Can you?

[pipoman]

15. These are the words you've chosen to describe the US

brutal, venal, greedy, corrupt, amoral, religiously insane, intolerant, fear-driven, stupid, ignorant.

in favor of denial or disregard of the Taliban who ruled Afghanistan, allowed safe harbor for international terrorists, and promoted a misogynistic religious fanaticism second to none. Help yourself, hate your country, hate other countries, it is really the same psychosis and need to hate. The truth is most USAmericans don't hate Afghans and realize there are many good people there...it is mostly other haters who choose to direct their hate there who you are apparently speaking of.

[ConsAreLiars]

18. There are facts about the US's practice and policies around the world and internally.

They are well known and well documented. That you read into my true and accurate statement about those who control the US a description of most USAmericans is as irrational as reading that sentence as a description of most Afghans.

You may want to review Afghanistan's recent history, the period I covered, to better understand who initially funded and imported the fanatics which formed into Al Qaeda. and how the funding of anti-progressive religious and tribal elements sequenced into a a long internal conflict and Soviet invasion, events leading eventually to Taliban dominance.

You may also wish to become more familiar with US history.

[grantcart]

9. As a matter of fact Afghanistan was a very civil, liberal and peaceful country from

1930-1970.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan#Reigns_of_Nadir_Shah_and_Zahir_Shah_.281929.E2.80.931973.29

[Hannah Bell]

12. what are you off about? the poster demonstrates no "self-loathing".

but hatred of others often is a projection to protect against self-loathing.

[grantcart]

8. Thank you for sharing

It would surprise most people to understand that Afghanistan didn't enter into the Cold War calculus because of Western machinations but because their own history was so liberal that they were the only Islamic country to sustain an indigenous communist party that shared power. It was this opening that allowed the Soviets to interact with an ally until they overtook the Afghan Communist Party entirely and plunged the country into civil war.

It should also be explained that the Sufi sect of Islam (although it is more a school of thought than a sect) has a strong background in Afghanistan and is the most liberal (almost Zen like) sects of Islam. Tragically some Sufi temples were attacked in Pakistan today.

[ConsAreLiars]

13. When the progressive side got back-and-forthed with mutual killings/assassinations

on both sides and all sorts of intrigues they began to lose their popular base, As I read it, attempting to use military force to suppress reactionary resistance weakened them, leading to a call for help from the USSR and at the same time making them an easier target for upscaling the ongoing CIA secret ops.

But one fact. This is the cover of the Ariana Airlines calendar for 1977. More truth in advertising than is usual:

[leftstreet]

11. K&R

[Turborama]

14. K&R & Bookmarked. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.

Coming back to make a more detailed post when I have more time later.

[Blue_In_AK]

19. Hello, old friend.

I think we've discussed before that I've always been intrigued by the Afghan people and their land even though I don't share your personal experience. Whenever anyone asks where in the world I would most like to go if I could, I always say Afghanistan, not quite knowing why.

The people just look so cool. I love their clothes. I like their physical features, the way they fit into their landscape. And I really like their independent streak. Afghanistan, where empires go to die.

[ConsAreLiars]

20. I had not a clue about Afghanistan before entering.

I had been hitching most of the summer through Scandinavia, but had agreed to meet a fellow anti-war activist at the Hagia Sofia in late summer. Visited with a family she somehow knew in Thessaloniki, camped on Mediterranean beaches doing Island hopping via the state ferry systems, and somehow decided that heading to India was a better idea than returning to Brandeis.

Back to Istanbul with a map and Murray's Guide, hopped a train and discovered that Afghanistan followed Iran.

No preconceptions at all, and just blown away by entering a reality I had never even imagined. When we got to Kabul, we discovered that we were not the only or first to travel this route, and later I learned it had been a crossroads for many cultures for thousands of years, but I began to wonder about our collective impact on this unique place.

As you note, they looked like themselves, not like any other, and certainly not like wannabe mimics of US TV imaging or Brits or even Iranians. And not poor or pathetic or needy. Very low income, when transactions involving currency are the basis for that measure, but a very sustainable subsistence-plus millennium old infrastructure and economy. Very few wage slaves, and very many struggling hard to live from one year, or day, to the next, and a hard winter meant many deaths.

But in every encounter, a kind and open and sharing world.

It's hard to explain, but experiencing Afghanistan was a great gift. I then worried about causing it harm by being a foreign element there. My later view is that we on that trail were just one more part of the "crossroads" that made it what it had become. But it felt like I had stumbled upon something so unique that seeing it harmed would be watching evil taking place.

The tragedies that followed when the US CIA, Brzezinski and Kissinger, began their totally psychopathic manipulations and murderings, well, you are one who gets my feelings.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

21. K and R! for later reading

edit to add: just kick I guess. Later than I thought.

[Angry Dragon]

22. KICK