You know, this whole primary thing really just sucks, period.

[livvy]

I talk to people who love Clinton. Then you have the Obama folks. In contrast, you have folks who don't like Clinton, and those who don't like Obama. Both have all these valid reasons for not liking one or the other. It's hard to disagree with most of what they say. Now, I'm not talking about conservative people. I'm talking about liberals/progressives who would vote Democratic because they know mcbush is not an option.

The thing that drives me nuts is that for every one of their concerns, I think if Biden was running, they wouldn't have that concern. Experience...not a problem. Corrupt connections...not a concern. Honesty.... check. Connection with the majority of the People...maybe not with the poorest, but certainly not with the "aristocracy" either.

And I have this nagging feeling of doom, that the whole damn thing is fixed anyway. Are we going to get shafted again, due to another stolen election? Seriously, can this country survive as we know it with four more years of this? I really don't think it can.

I am not happy with either of the candidates, but things as they are, we are going to have to work our butts off to make sure they are elected. And after they are, we are going to have to remain vigilant, because ain't none of them Biden. He certainly isn't perfect,but at least he could be trusted.

[gateley]

1. Excellent post, livvy.

And especially your last sentence. Maybe that's what did it of me -- for many of us. We KNEW we could trust Joe.

I'm not saying that either of the candidates are dishonest, but I think both of them would be more susceptible to political pressure than Joe would be - he'd do the right thing no matter what.

As he said once when getting grief about continuing funding the war "Oh, I KNOW what the RIGHT vote was, but..."

Sigh. :hug:

[elleng]

2. livvy, I'm with you 1000%.

I'm a Clarkie Bidenite, am SO upset about the way this system works that I can barely stand to hear the news any longer.

Gave me some hope to see WTimes talk of Joe and O; decent signal, if it means O really is looking around for fp experience etc. O needs someones like Joe and Wes, and he'd better recognize it.

AND as far as work our butts off, its the STEALING that gets me, the voting machines AND THEN the final process of putting numbers all together, the tabulations; that's where bush/rove shafted kerry. REMEMBER WATCHING bushies the election night, when everything suddenly changed?

HELP!

[livvy]

3. I felt sick.

I had been following the polls so closely. The fact that so many newspapers endorsed Kerry, (that had never endorsed a Dem before), the huge voter registration successes, and the general public opinion of the disaster the lying weasel administration had thrust on our country, I was certain that Kerry had the support he needed. And then, that live video of the lying weasel family sitting in our White House looking smug and unconcerned. I knew then, that we had gotten screwed. The jig was up, the case was closed, and the election never really existed as far as truth was told.
There are times in your life that change you forever. And that was one of those times for me.

[elleng]

4. Ditto, livvy.

We'll NEVER have an election I'll believe in.

And my daughter, in college at the time, asked me 'what happened,' as we'd been following the 'news.'

[jillan]

5. I stayed up till 3 am that nite watching the election results come in.

I was watching Dan Rather. Kerry was winning nicely, and then all of the sudden something changed.
The look on Rather's face said it all.

I knew at that moment the election was stolen.
I cried like a baby.

Honestly, do you think they could get away with it again? Look at 2006, they couldn't pull it off.
People are hyper-aware of voting fraud.

I agree 100% about what you said how things would be different if Biden was the nominee.
McCain definitely wouldn't be saying things like 'how could he know what's going on in Iraq?'
If Biden was the nominee, McCain would be poopin' in his Depends.

[PatSeg]

6. I was so excited

I'd requested the following day off so I could stay up late and watch the returns. It was like being kicked in the gut. Somehow it was worse than 2000, maybe because we didn't believe they could steal two in a row.

I can't go through another one like 2000 or 2004. I'm worn down.

[Eurobabe]

7. If the Cons manage to steal 2008

Won't be coming home anytime soon. To visit yes, but beyond that...no way.

I hope everyday that the Dem nominee wins. If not, I'll consider the US a Banana Republic, these bastards can't steal it a 3rd time, can they?? :banghead:

[CrispyQ]

11. A kick in the gut!

I was an election judge. Our lead judge had been doing this for years. She said she could not believe the turnout. People were hopeful. It took us about an hour and a half to finish up after the polls closed. When I first got home, Kerry was blasting. Within 90 minutes, everything had turned & I knew they had done it again.

I'm worn down, too.

[livvy]

8. There were some wins in '06, but...

there are some that maintain that the wins should have been even greater, that some of the election results were not as they should have been. We won a pretty comfy majority in the House, but as we've discovered, the majority in the Senate is tentative at best, and has proved to be meaningless when the really important issues come to a vote.

Here's a couple of the more "famous" :sarcasm: examples from Florida. One has to wonder how many other cases were there that got no publicity at all. Should '06 have been a landslide victory for the Dems instead of the moderate gains we actually realized?
Clint Curtis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x468771

and the Christine Jennings case...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x480350

I agree that the people are very aware of the possibility of fraud, and that will make any shenanigans more difficult. The problem is with the exception of helping a few voters actually be allowed to cast their votes, once the long lines form in mostly Dem precincts, voters have been purged from the rolls before they even get to the polls, provisional ballots are forced on so many, and others turned away period, it's too late. Add to that the fact that the ballots are counted by machines that we have no idea how they are programmed to operate, and no real recourse to check the accuracy of their totals because there are few if any valid audits, and you end up with elections that may or may not truly reflect the will of the People. Once the totals have been certified, that's it. Even with plenty of evidence like the two example above, the results do not change.

I am convinced that until we succeed in getting HCPB at the polling location with lots of safeguards in place, meaningful audits, the elimination of state/picture ID requirements, private vendors out of the election business, and public financing of elections with free and equal air time for all, (just for a start) we will not have true and valid election results.

on edit: Here's a good thread with lots of links and info about our current state of elections.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x503576

[PatSeg]

9. I agree about '06

I thought at the time, "how many did we really win?" This kind of fraud is not going away, that is why the Dems need landslide victories all over the country. Pretty pathetic, isn't it? There has been so much talk about election reform for years and so little progress.

Though I'm looking forward to the end of this administration, I'm dreading the upcoming election.

[CrispyQ]

10. I'm really concerned too.

With either Clinton or Obama, I'm not confident we will have enough votes to overcome election fraud. It's going to be an uphill battle & the repubs have the advantage of controlling the media & the voting machines.

My husband is so disgusted he's voting Green.

on edit:

I wish I remembered the DUer who put this flowchart together. It is spot on! I make several copies & stuff in credit card offer envelopes & mail it back to them.

[elleng]

13. CrispieQ, this should be posted 'up front,' and in media,

and everyone given opty really to understand where the tampering takes place.

Doesn't matter how many vote Dem, as we saw in '04.

[Tashca]

12. Nagging feeling of doom?

I understand exactly what you are saying. I feel the same sort of doom.
I feel we have been manipulated into choosing from two of the weaker candidates.
When I looked at the original seven I looked for someone who could win in November. To me that was reason number one. I then looked at who best fit my ideals. Joe was a simple and easy choice for me.

My choices were: Biden, Dodd, Edwards, Kucinich, Richardson, Clinton, Obama, and then Gravel.
Biden was an easy first with Dodd a solid second....then Edwards alittle back. After that you could put them in any order as to having the ability to win in November.

I hope I am so wrong.......but I can't shake this feeling that I'm watching a sort of slow motion car wreck coming....