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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 12:50 PM
Original message
Porfirio Lobo Wants Amnesty for All Involved in Coup
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. I want to know what the State Department says about this.
Any bets?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. "We need to look forward, not backward." That's our President's view on truly big criminals
but not so much on...oh...petty theft, or minor drug possession, or, say, street level robbery, or single murders. Then, of course, we must look BACKWARD, at the PAST actions of the accused and hold them accountable for what they did IN THE PAST, and, if found guilty, prosecute them to the max.

Probably, the massive human rights violations perpetrated by the Junta in Honduras--with the smiling approval of the U.S. Department--qualify as major, Bushwhack-style crimes--and thus, in our President's view of the law--should be immunized from prosecution because, um, they happened in the PAST. On really big crimes, we don't look backward--at what they did--and, really, we don't look forward either, at what they MIGHT do, given their PAST record. We just, oh, close our eyes and smile and hope for the best.

Getting yourself into this category of protection requires really big crimes--along with toadying to U.S. global corporate predators and their profit needs--and the Honduran Junta has worked really hard to qualify. Like their brethren in Colombia, they have unleashed death squads for a turkey shoot of anti-coup activists, and have been as brutal as they can, with beatings, tear gassings, attacks with live ammunition and rubber bullets, home invasions, imprisonment, rapes and torture, as well as creating government "lists" of people to be punished--all on-going in Honduras. We'll see if they get "made."
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. amnesty would apply to Zelaya as well
to answer another person's question: I bet the State Department says its an internal Honduran affair to make any offer of amnesty.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Amnesty is transitory.
Edited on Wed Dec-09-09 03:15 PM by Downwinder
Like Lucy holding the ball.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'd take what I can get if I were Zelaya and then leave the country n/t
s
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I doubt that Zelaya will do that--although with the death squads that the Junta has unleashed
in Honduras, it would be understandable.

I think you miss something very big, which is Zelaya's motivation. There is no way he could have benefited from the advisory vote that he proposed on behalf of the labor unions, human rights groups, religious advocates of the poor and others, to initiate fundamental reform of Honduras' putrid political system. He was termed out. And there is no way he could have benefited from returning to Honduras, as he did. He would have had a very comfortable exile in any number of countries including Brazil--if his own personal comfort and survival were his prime consideration. He chose to go back to virtual imprisonment in the Brazilian embassy in Honduras, and make himself vulnerable to arrest and to assassination. Why would he do that, with only a couple of months left to his term of office? I think he has a genuine belief in reform and in improving Honduran democracy in the interest of the poor majority. You speak of him as if he were some fugitive criminal absconding with the peoples' money! I don't agree with that characterization--it flies in the face of the evidence (and it has always been the M.O. of the rightwing, not the left--to empty their bank accounts and run off to "exile" in some criminal-friendly country). Zelaya returned to Honduras, with an arrest warrant on his head, and most certainly with a price on his head as well. If you ignore evidence like that--and just project your own cynical view of things onto others--you won't be much good to people as an analyst or predictor of events.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. if he is so brave then why hide in the Brazilian embassy under diplomatic protection?
let him stand trial then if he is so brave. he is the one that proposed that the Congress vote on his return. do you need reminding of the outcome?

Zelaya is the one who is the poor predictor of events. he doesn't have large popular support, he totally misjudged the Congress, misjudged the ALBA alliance joke that they could actually do anything for him.

Honduras can still undertake any needed Constitutional reforms under the new administration. that will be their call, Zelaya isn't needed for that.

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lunamagica Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-09-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Zelaya is leaving Honduras tonight.
Going to Mexico
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Zelaya had a 67% approval rating in a poll taken about a month ago. You're wrong that he doesn't
have support.

The other day you posted that Zelaya had been elected in 2005 amidst charges of "massive election fraud." In fact, none other than Mr. Lobo (now 'president' of Honduras amidst massive martial law and human rights abuses) made this rote rightwing charge just after losing to Zelaya in 2005, but gave it up, did not demand a recount, and conceded as soon as the vote count was complete. I asked you for a link to any site documenting "election fraud" in 2005, and you just ignored my question.

He "doesn't have popular support"--wrong!

Through ALBA, Zelaya negotiated cheap oil for Honduras from Venezuela and thus was able to lower the price of bus tickets for poor workers. Only the rich and the rightwing would consider that a joke. ALBA was an excellent alliance for Honduras, in order to free it from the tyranny of forced U.S. "free trade for the rich," and this is one of the reasons that U.S. embassy, which knew about the coup ahead of time, and the U.S. military at the U.S. military base in Honduras where the Junta plane carrying the kidnapped president out of the country stopped for refueling, did nothing to help him, and why the U.S. then pursued a strategy of delay, deception and treacherous backstabbing, ultimately approving the Junta. It was partly in service to Chiquita International and other slave labor operations in Honduras. Zelaya, in addition to joining ALBA, led the fight to raise the minimum wage--another offense against U.S.-based global corporate predators.

These were not misjudgments by Zelaya. He was pursuing popular policies (including the constitutional reform initiative). Where he may have misjudged things was in believing that the U.S., under Obama, would support democracy and social justice.

As for his "misjudging Congress," this was the same Congress that had endorsed his illegal and violent kidnapping and exile, and then trumped up charges against him based on a forged letter of resignation. A cowardly bunch of rats they are, toadying to the rich and powerful--rather like our congress. Zelaya didn't misjudge congress, but he may have misjudged U.S. ambassador Thomas Shannon, as to promises that he would be restored to office to finish his martial law-truncated term.

"Honduras can still undertake any needed Constitutional reforms under the new administration. that will be their call...". Yeah, right. It was an uphill battle for needed constitutional reform before the coup and the vicious repression of the Honduran people. If the current martial law-backed regime undertakes constitutional reform, it will only be to make things worse, and the people of Honduras will have nothing to say about it.

You seem to approve of power not righteousness. Yeah, President Zelaya and the Honduran people--the labor unions, human rights groups, religious advocates of the poor and other grass roots movements, representing the vast poor majority--were outmaneuvered by the combination of massive, violent repression, the entrenched power of the "ten families" oligarchy and the U.S. government and military. Does that make it right?

You are crowing that Zelaya was defeated. But look what it took to defeat him! The illegal, violent and treacherous means used to remove the ELECTED president and his great majority supported administration clearly exposes the ill motives of the Junta and its U.S. backers, and it points to something else as well--when combined with other facts, such as the big U.S. military build-up in Colombia. Zelaya had only six months left to his term of office. How much anti-corporate, anti-oligarchy reform could he have accomplished in that time--especially given the dirtbags running the congress. The reform initiative that he proposed was only an ADVISORY vote of the people. It would have taken years for any reform to get off the ground. So why didn't they just wait out his term, and then hold their Tweedle-dee/Tweedle-dum election, avoiding all reform?

I think there was an ulterior motive on the part of the Pentagon and the Obama administration, which was to secure the U.S. military base and port facilities in Honduras, for a 1980s-style war plan they have to destabilize Honduras' neighbors--which all now have elected leftist governments (El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala)--topple those democracies, and create a ring around Venezuela's northern oil region, with the SEVEN new U.S. military bases in Colombia, a deal that contains NO LIMIT on the number of U.S. soldiers and 'contactors' who can be deployed there, unlimited diplomatic immunity for whatever U.S. soldiers and 'contractors' do there and with U.S. military use of all civilian airports and other facilities in Colombia; two new U.S. bases in Panama; the newly reconstituted U.S. 4th Fleet in the Caribbean, and the secured U.S. military facilities in Honduras. I think that the ultimate goal of these activities in an oil war against Venezuela (possibly netting in Ecuador as well).

I can't think of any good reason for the coup in Honduras (they could have just waited Zelaya out), nor for the Obama administration support of that coup at the cost of all the potential good will they had in the region, nor for this massive U.S. military buildup in Latin America--at the cost of billions and billions of dollars that we don't have--except perhaps simple war profiteering (many lucrative contracts with the Pentagon). But, given the other wars that the U.S. is engaged in, and U.S. bankruptcy, my educated guess is that it's not just war profiteering--it's war. The U.S. war machine needs that oil, as do the globalized trade profiteers (to ship their sweatshop-manufactured goods around the globe). Secondly, they want to stop the democracy/independence movement that has caught fire in South and now Central America. (If the "will of the people" in Latin America is to prevail, it means less monstrous profits for the rich and local sovereign control of natural resources such as oil.)

As to misjudgments, I think Zelaya misjudged either the Obama administration's weakness in relation to the Pentagon and Bushwhack operatives, here and there, or misjudged their collusion with the forces of war and oppression. I couldn't 'read' the Obama administration either, early in the Honduran coup--as was true of a lot of people. When the U.S./Colombia's secretly negotiated agreement for this big buildup of the U.S. military in Colombia was finally made public--to the shock and dismay of other Latin American leaders--Chavez commented that Obama "is the prisoner of the Pentagon." My guess at this point is that it's worse than that. It's either collusion or weakness combined with collusion. The war plan certainly has a Rumsfeldian odor to it. It's probably something he left on the desk, which seems to be proceeding of its own momentum, and without any opposition from the Obamites. All they have done is to make a few lame gestures to try to look innocent. Clever gestures, I'll admit (like Obama saying, early on, that Zelaya is "the ONLY president of Honduras"). They fooled me--or rather confused me--early on. I thought that Obama was trying to outmaneuver the Bushwhack plan in Honduras, and it was taking him a long time to get control of the U.S. clients running Honduras. But it looks more to me now that he was collusive--and then came the U.S. military buildup in Colombia, which he is defending.

So if I couldn't 'read' the man I voted for, how much more difficult it must have been for the exiled and profoundly threatened president of Honduras to understand what was really going on. The Honduran military was cutting off his cell phone calls at 40 seconds. He was (and still is) under siege in the Brazilian embassy, surrounded by troops. Shannon shows up like "Sir Lancelot" making promises about restoring Zelaya to his rightful office and about restoration of the rule of law. He's got his fingers crossed behind his back that Zelaya will believe him. Lord, what a disgusting tale this is!

So, hey, you go ahead and stomp on the defeated hopes of the Honduran people for real democracy and improvement of their lot. Go ahead and identify with brutal power. These, apparently, are your affinities. But I do urge you to consider what is right, not just what is powerful. Powermongering and world domination are ignoble goals for the U.S. I truly hate to see my country still pursuing them.



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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. he is leaving or really would like to it appears
anyway, I don't identify with "brutal power". More likely than not the new president will be unsatisfactory as well but give him and Honduras a chance to move on at least.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. What is all this about "moving on" when so many crimes have been committed?
I don't understand this, here or in Honduras.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. well, who is going to prosecute those crimes?? n/t
s
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Who is going to prosecute them? Um, prosecutors in honest justice systems in REAL democracies?
Neither we nor the Hondurans have honest justice systems or real democracies. So, there's your answer. Nobody! Mitcheletti & brethren go free. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld & brethren go free.

The same thing happened in numerous Latin American countries, where U.S.-supported heinous rightwing dictatorships tortured and slaughtered tens of thousands of people in the 1970s-1980s. It took decades for people to rebuild their democracies and start prosecuting these crimes, which is happening now.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. As far as I know, only Argentina has started prosecution...
Thanks to former president Kirchner. Right now, a mass trial of 40 former torturers is going on.

However, in Uruguay, where ex-Tupamero Mujica has just been elected, the people also voted *against* lifting the amnesty on crimes committed during the military junta.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Fairly true, but Argentina was headquarters of "Plan Condor" --the U.S. supported terror plan
against political leftists in other countries as well as Argentina, and most of the deaths occurred in Argentina, so prosecutions in Argentina are particularly significant.

("...the Brazilian journalist Nilson Mariano estimates the number of killed and missing people as: 297 in Uruguay, 366 in Brazil, 2,000 in Paraguay, 3,196 in Chile and 30,000 in Argentina<22>")

"On December 22, 1992 a significant amount of information about Operation Condor came to light when José Fernández, a Paraguayan judge, visited a police station in the Lambaré suburb of Asunción to look for files on a former political prisoner. Instead he found what became known as the "terror archives", detailing the fates of thousands of Latin Americans secretly kidnapped, tortured and killed by the security services of Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay. Some of these countries have since used portions of this archive to prosecute former military officers. The archives counted 50,000 persons murdered, 30,000 "desaparecidos" and 400,000 incarcerated.<9>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
(my emphasis)

Prosecutions have occurred in Chile...

In Argentina DINA's civil agent Enrique Arancibia Clavel, prosecuted for crimes against humanity in 2004, was condemned to life imprisonment for his part in General Prat's murder.<11> In 2003, federal judge Maria Servini de Cubria requested the extradition from Chile of Mariana Callejas, who was Michael Townley's wife (himself a U.S. expatriate and DINA agent), and Cristoph Willikie, a retired colonel from the Chilean army—all three of them are accused of this murder. Chilean appeal court judge Nibaldo Segura refused extradition in July 2005 on the grounds that they had already been prosecuted in Chile. <4> (Ibid, my emphasis)

And there have been continued efforts to prosecute in Chile, for example...

"Chilean judge Juan Guzmán Tapia eventually established a precedent concerning the crime of 'permanent kidnapping': since the bodies of victims kidnapped and presumably murdered could not be found, he deemed that the kidnapping was deemed to continue, rather than to have occurred so long ago that the perpetrators were protected by an amnesty decreed in 1978 or by the Chilean statute of limitations. Ironically, the perpetrators' success in hiding evidence of their crimes frustrated their attempts to escape from justice."

But efforts to prevent prosecution have been extreme. ("Operación Silencio (Operation Silence) was an operation to impede investigations by Chilean judges by removing witnesses from the country, starting about a year before the "terror archives" were found in Paraguay.") Also, Plan Condor-central in Argentina was assassinating Chilean exiles in Argentina (who had fled Pinochet). These crimes against Chileans were committed in Argentina.

Argentina's and other prosecutions have often involved cross-border crimes and perpetrators, and Operation Condor murders were also occurring in the U.S., in Italy, in Spain. The U.S. perps were/are mostly protected U.S. assets, of course (except for Michael Townley, convicted in Washington of the bombing death of Chile-Allende's ambassador in Washington), but more prosecutions have gone forward in Italy, Spain and France. Here is a summary of legal actions...

-----

"Legal actions

Chilean judge Juan Guzman, who had arraigned Pinochet at his return to Chile after his arrest in London, started procedures against some 30 torturers, including former head of the DINA Manuel Contreras, for the disappearance of 20 Chilean victims of the Condor plan.<45>

In Argentina the CONADEP human rights commission led by writer Ernesto Sabato investigated human rights abuses during the "Dirty War", and the 1985 Trial of the Juntas found top officers who ran the military governments guilty of acts of state terrorism. However, the amnesty laws (Ley de Obediencia Debida and Ley de Punto Final) put an end to the trials until the amnesties themselves were repealed by the Argentine Supreme Court in 2003. Criminals such as Alfredo Astiz, sentenced in absentia in France for the disappearance of the two French nuns Alice Domont and Léonie Duquet will now have to answer for their involvement in Condor.

Chilean Enrique Arancibia Clavel was condemned in Argentina for the assassination of Carlos Prats and of his wife. Former Uruguayan president Juan María Bordaberry, his minister of Foreign Affairs and six military officers, responsible for the disappearance in Argentina in 1976 of opponents to the Uruguayan regime, were arrested in 2006.

On 3 August, 2007 General Raúl Iturriaga, former head of DINA, was captured in the Chilean town of Viña del Mar on the Pacific coast<62>. He had previously been a fugitive from a five-year jail term, after being sentenced for the kidnapping of Luis Dagoberto San Martin, a 21-year-old opponent of Pinochet. Martín had been captured in 1974 and taken to a DINA detention centre, from which he "disappeared." Iturriaga was also wanted in Argentina for the assassination of General Prats <62>.

According to French newspaper L'Humanité "in most of those countries legal action against the authors of crimes of 'lese-humanity' from the 1970s to 1990 owes more to flaws in the amnesty laws than to a real will of the governments in power, which, on the contrary, wave the flag of 'national reconciliation'. It is sad to say that two of the pillars of the Condor Operation, Alfredo Stroessner and Augusto Pinochet, never paid for their crimes and died without ever answering charges about the 'disappeared' - who continue to haunt the memory of people who had been crushed by fascist brutality."<45>.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor

-------------------------

I object to your saying "thanks to former president Kirchner." He has been important, certainly, in improving Argentine democracy and its justice system (as has the current president, his wife Cristina Fernandez) but the prosecutions in Argentina (and other places) have been the hard and dangerous work of MANY brave and tenacious people--investigators, journalists, prosecutors, judges, human rights advocates, victims' families, witnesses and others.--in Argentina, Chile, Paraguay and many other countries. Also, it was the Argentine Supreme Court that rescinded the amnesty law, not Kirchner (though I believe he advocated for it).

I urge you and others to read this detailed and well-documented account of the horrendous crimes of that era, of the many courageous people who worked on investigations, often at peril of their lives, and of the many efforts to investigate and prosecute--and the various ways that they were hampered--by horrors like Plan Condor throwing the bodies of their victims out of airplanes over the ocean to make their disappearance permanent, burial is mass graves, threats against and murders of investigators and families, shredding of records and other actions. These were very powerful criminals, protected by the likes of Henry Kissinger--much like Bush Jr, Cheney and Rumsfeld. I think you downplay the difficulties of prosecuting such people and the tremendous efforts to do so, in spite of those difficulties, as the countries involved have improved their democracies and justice systems over the years, and most especially, recently. The power of wealthy corpo-fascists to protect their murderers and torturers is very great. At least Latin America is TRYING. Are we?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I didn't mean to make it look like an easy task to prosecute them...
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 09:10 PM by DutchLiberal
And most certainly I didn't want to make it seem like I only credit former president Kirchner. I'm very much aware that, in the years preceding his reign, previous presidents had provided amnesty for the criminals from the "dirty war", and that, during those years, the cases against them had been built by very many brave human rights advocates, journalists, lawyers etc. I was just saying the support of Kirchner was significant.

By the way, it's about time the American *people* got told this history; on tv, in the newspapers, in school...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Wanted to add something you've also discussed in other posts, our Attorney General, Eric Holder,
worked as an attorney for Chiquita just prior to his nomination for the current administration.

Very, very creepy fact.

It will take a miracle to get a future back for the vast majority of Hondurans. May the people connected to this filthy, bloody coup suffer every day for the rest of their lives for stealing the government and killing so many activists who dared to support the democratically elected President of Honduras.

Thanks for your post, Peace Patriot.

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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Thank you for your excellent analysis --if only the media had picked up on it!
I think you are right when you write about the "ulterior motive" of the Pentagon and the US administration. I've always thought the coup was really about the military bases in Honduras. Of course, I couldn't make the link with toppling Honduras' neighbors and Venezuela's oil, like you did. But that sure sounds like a very plausible theory. Some would call it a conspiracy theory, but the past has shown how brutal the US can be in Latin-America to pursue its own interests --terrible crimes against humanity for which nobody has ever been brought to justice.

If only the media would have picked up on this, instead of parroting the right-wing claims about a 'power-hungry' president seeking to expand his rule. I expected that from the US media, because they're ultimately owned by much bigger corporations who have a vast interest in war-making in Latin-America. But also in the European media, this has never been addressed. Even the BBC, which is not biased like the Dutch media, never connected the dots.

People on DU often complain about their disappointment with Obama. They cite Afghanistan or health care as the moment when they began to see Obama isn't much different from previous presidents. But I saw it earlier, when he refused to call the coup against President Zelaya a "coup"; when he refused to cut of all aid to the country; and when his administration started to blame President Zelaya for "irresponsible actions", like returning to his own country. The US could have easily pressured Micheletti into stepping down, but they just didn't want to. Instead, they placed the coup-regime on equal footing with President Zelaya, by engineering the puppet show headed by Oscar Arias.

Again, thanks for your post. And I propose that we always refer to Zelaya as "President" Zelaya.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. You make some very good points.
I especially agree with this: "The US could have easily pressured Micheletti into stepping down, but they just didn't want to. Instead, they placed the coup-regime on equal footing with President Zelaya, by engineering the puppet show headed by Oscar Arias. "

I wasn't sure about the "military coup" thing, at first--because official designation as a "military coup" would have triggered the matter going to Congress for approval, where it appeared to me that Jim DeMint & brethren were laying in wait, intending to hand Obama his ass on a major Latin American policy This still may have been the case--that Obama was trying to maneuver around DeMint, at first--but the upshot is that either Obama was just playing games or he lost this fight to DeMint. And why a first term Senator from So. Carolina (a state with THE most non-transparent election system in the country) should be running U.S. foreign policy, I do not know. The Obamites and the Bushwhacks are of one mind on Latin America? Or, is Chavez more right, that Obama "is the prisoner of the Pentagon" (--i.e., he doesn't have the full powers of the presidency)? Either thing is bad.

I was trying not to jump to conclusions, early on, cuz I just can't imagine how difficult it must be to take over a government that has been run by Bushwhacks for eight years, and no doubt is still riddled with Bushwhack "mole" saboteurs (--certainly true as to the U.S. embassies in Latin America) . But the last minute switch of U.S. policy--no longer requiring Zelaya's reinstatement as president and a return to the democratic rule of law--puts the events that preceded it into more damning perspective, as far as Obama goes. I'm beginning to think that Chavez's comment was charitable.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Maybe president Chavez was even too optimistic about Obama...
President Chavez said Obama is "a prisoner" of the Pentagon. This implies that Obama really is innocent, and wants to do the right ting, but he can't, because the Pentagon keeps him imprisoned. I think he gave Obama too much credit. Look, Obama appointed Iran-Contra veteran Robert Gates, also Secretary of Defense under George W. Bush, to be his Sec. of Defense. Obama didn't try to outmaneuver the Bushwacks, he invited them into his administration. And when president Zelaya was carried out of his country, didn't the plane make a stop at an *American* base for fuel? I really don't think one Jim DeMint holds that much power...
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yes, the plane carrying the kidnapped president out of the country stopped at the U.S. air base
in Soto Cano, Honduras, for refueling, while the U.S. commanders there were apparently too busy playing video games to bother checking what planes were going in and out. (It is supposedly a drug interdiction base!)

That's why, at first brush, I thought there might be two coups going on--one against Obama (and his authority as president), the other against Zelaya. That possibility is reduced to about 1% in my mind, at this point--partly because Obama has since defended the Bushwhack-negotiated, BIG U.S. military buildup in Colombia. And if there has been an internal struggle (over either thing), Obama lost. But I'm much less inclined, now, to think there was even a struggle. It appears that Obama caved to the U.S. forces of evil in Latin America from the beginning, and his stated policy of "peace, respect and cooperation" in US/Latin American relations has been bullshit all along.

Jim DeMint's behavior during the Honduran crisis--his active, open sabotage of Obama policy--and how he reacted to Obama's cave-in on Honduras--crowing triumphantly--most certainly gave the impression that this first term, junior senator from SC is, in fact, the president of the U.S., or at least Sec of State (or maybe Sec of Defense?)--on U.S. Latin American policy. He OVERRULED President Obama's stated policy!

I even toyed with the idea that he was giving the orders to the Pentagon's "Southern Command" through the Bushwhack-appointed ambassador in Honduras. You may recall, he was holding up all of Obama's appointments in Latin America. Bushwhacks still in place everywhere. Looked to me like a Bushwhack plan--topple Honduras, use it, as in the 1980s, to launch destabilization/toppling assaults on the neighboring leftist governments (Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala), move the U.S. military into Colombia, and make war on Venezuela (and probably Ecuador--the main oil sources in the northern hump of the "Southern Command"). There is a lot of evidence for this war plan. But it is not--so far, in any case--a putsch against Obama. He apparently supports it!
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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. It's over for Zelaya
I doubt the "approval rating" for the guy is as you say. His followers got trounced in the election.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Poll Oct. 9-13, 2009, 67% approval of Zelaya's government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Zelaya

"His followers" got "trounced"? 1) The country had been under brutal martial law for six months prior to the Junta's military-run, so-called election; opposition media crushed; at least a hundred anti-coup activists murdered; thousands injured; human and civil rights "suspended"; media broadcasting only Junta-approved candidates; the military, which had kidnapped him at gunpoint and forced him out of the country, in charge of "ballot security"--his "followers" had NO chance; 2) Zelaya was not a candidate (termed out) and it was the treacherous bastards like Mitcheletti in his own Liberal Party who perpetrated the coup (which is why they lost to Lobo); and 3) Zelaya and his supporters, and all anti-coup groups, boycotted the election, with at least 50% success, so, to say that they "got trounced" doesn't make any sense.

Your triumphant little statement, "It's over for Zelaya," reflects your lack of knowledge about this situation and your approval of elections under martial law in which the rightwing wins. Tut-tut. Your Limbaugh is showing.

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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. It's not just the US who approved. It's also the European Union...
Their stance is that the 'elections' of Novermber 29 are "an important step" in "resolving the crisis in Honduras." I nearly barfed when I read that.
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