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holy crap!!!! another coup attempt this time in Colombia!!!!

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 11:11 AM
Original message
holy crap!!!! another coup attempt this time in Colombia!!!!
and its been going on for 40 years who knew???


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/colombia/5072089/FARC-guerillas-fail-in-bid-to-kill-defence-minister-after-spelling-mistake.html

Colombia's security forces have foiled a plot by Marxists rebels to assassinate the defence minister - although its chances of success were probably small as the guerrillas had misspelled "policia" on their repainted police motorbikes.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Poor people of colombia
Overwhelmigly elect democratic leaders but are not supported at DU.
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. and Obama, overwhelmingly elected but not supported on the LA forum of DU n/t
s
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. If they supported the poor people.
Edited on Sat Oct-02-10 11:37 AM by Downwinder
The FBI would probably come visiting.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Every poll and every election
Show that the Urine and Santos governments are wildly popular, unless of course you think 70% of the Colombian population is rich.
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VioletLake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Urine? LOL nt
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Also the anal OP of the week



:rofl:
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. If you raise your head in a leftist cause in Colombia, you risk getting it shot off
by the Colombian military or its closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads.

Further, there are some 5 MILLION displaced poor peasants in Colombia--mostly displaced by state terror. Do they get asked their opinion? Can they even vote? Human rights groups say that many are too fearful of government reprisal to register as displaced. About a quarter of a million of them have fled into neighboring Ecuador and Venezuela. Do their votes get counted? (Colombia has a pop. of about 20 million total.)

FORTY trade union leaders have been murdered this year alone. Trade unionists, journalists, teachers, community activists, human rights workers and others are routinely murdered in Colombia!

Now tell me: If you are a leftist in Colombia, and some stranger comes to your door asking about your political views, are you going to be honest?

The conditions for fair elections and for a fair assessment of political opinion in Colombia do not exist.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yet
The polls were more favorable to the left than the actual voting results were. Or, do you have any evidence of significant vote fraud?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. You don't need "evidence of vote fraud" when hundreds of people are being murdered for
their political views, and millions have been terrorized and displaced. Basic conditions for democracy do not exist in Colombia. I never trusted the Mockus polls. I don't trust ANY polls or election results in Colombia. I don't think people are free to speak. Look what just happened to Congresswoman Piedad Cordoba. You advocate for peace in Colombia's long civil war and you get barred from office. Peace is not allowed. Advocating for peace gets you spied on, put on death squad lists, threatened and banned. It's a war profiteer "heaven"! So bloody, militaristic and profoundly corrupt, and so dominated by this country, that democracy is a cruel joke.

I don't doubt that there are some urban areas of middle class delusion, where they celebrate the latest Colombian military slaughter of their own countrymen, and who enthusiastically vote for whoever gets them more billions of U.S. tax dollars to keep their little havens safe, and who are encouraged to lust after "free trade for the rich." But I would suspect that some, maybe a lot, of those voters or poll subjects are suffering a form of "Stockholm Syndrome." But even if they aren't--even if they genuinely adore Uribe or Santos--they are a minority. MOST Colombians are VERY POOR and have no voice. Their voice has been SILENCED. Their leaders are DEAD. They live in fear, and if they want to keep body and soul together, they shut their mouths--and even then they are not necessarily immune to slaughter, as with the "false positives" murders.

The government has been spying on everybody. The networks of control are pervasive and vicious. Human and civil rights are so impaired for the majority that the very bottom line of democracy does not exist--that you can speak freely, that you can run for office, that you can influence your government, that you have basic human dignity. How can you trust polls in these circumstances?

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Here's a bit of naked reality at to Colombian 'democracy'....
Edited on Sat Oct-02-10 05:17 PM by Peace Patriot
A report on the Colombian military's mass grave in La Macarena....

---

Liam Craig-Best, of British NGO Justice for Colombia, says the problem is systemic.

The justice system in Colombia doesn’t work, particularly when it comes to investigating violence perpetrated against state opponents - trade unionists, political opponents, community leaders and journalists. Without international pressure on the Colombian regime, it is unlikely that a proper investigation will be carried out into what has happened at La Macarena.’

A delegation of British MPs visited La Macarena in December 2009, and heard dozens of witnesses, including Jhony Hurtado, a community leader, allege army killings. Ten weeks later, Hurtado was shot dead at his farm in La Catalina, 45 minutes east of La Macarena.

Jim Sheridan, one of the visiting MPs, said ‘The UK Government rightly wishes to stem the flow of drugs, but the Colombian army makes no distinction between counter-narcotics work and counter-insurgency work. And it is during the latter that so many civilians are killed, mainly innocent peasant farmers but also human-rights activists and other people who speak out against Colombian government policies.’


(MORE)
(my emphasis)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1316777/Are-British-taxpayers-helping-fund-civil-war-killings-Colombia.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x42589

-----------------------------

How do you suppose the opinion polling went in La Macarena?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. All polls I saw on Uribe were for telephone owners in a handful of urban areas
Colombia has one of the highest "displaced population" rates in the world, and the displaced population is typically poor rural and indigenous: they won't have landlines or cellphones

Moreover, Colombia has had a serious problem with rightist death squads for decades. So it's not clear to me that people are speaking freely in the phone surveys

The poll results might best be summarized as: People, who are well-off enough to have phone service, in the small number of urban areas sampled, overwhelmingly say they support the rightwing government, when a stranger calls to ask
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. It's also hard as hell for door-to-door polsters to catch them at home, when they have been forced
OUT of their homes!

It's also hard to catch them in random polls at the mall since they have no money to go shopping! Pity, isn't it?

People know better than to answer their phones and tell strangers they don't support the ruling class candidates, as they could easily find out too late it wasn't really a polster after all when they get shot through their window, or their house burns, or their car blows up.

How about that march they organized a couple of years ago to protest the ongoing paramilitary presence after Colombia pretended to have successfully demobilized? Around 5 march organizers were murdered within a week or two after they planned it. They waste no time making a political point in that hell hole.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. The people of Latin America also overwhelming supported the Obama election
until they watched Honduras. You're welcome to grab a clue at any time.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Huh?
The people of latin America don't get to vote for us president, but in any event perhaps Obama is not who he said he was. The support for uribe continues year after year poll after poll, election after election. Perhaps you think the average colombian is stupid?
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. they still do support him, over your preferred leaders for sure
especially fat boy in Caracas

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Link? Source?
Thanks!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. sure, no problem
http://www.latinobarometro.org/

http://international.fiu.edu/uploads/file/Iberobarometer%20Executive%20Summary%20English.pdf


if you read the full link of the CIMA barometer you'll see Hugo, your hero, has the lowest favorable rating of latin americans in general. Happy reading!!!
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VioletLake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. It is the hegemon's foreign policy that I object to.
It is throughout the DU that it is rightfully criticized, not just in this forum.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Agree w/you.
But, you'll see plenty of support for continuing hegemony throughout DU also.

This forum is no exception.



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VioletLake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-02-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I noticed.
:shrug:
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L Cutter Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. It's not just on the LA forum of DU.
Edited on Sun Oct-03-10 01:26 AM by L Cutter
Beyond the immorality of it, or because of the immorality of it, the Empire reaches its bloody fingers back and corrupts everything in the homeland. There is no greater threat to the USA than US foreign policy. The majority remained deliberately and blissfully unaware of this danger until the Bush Cabal used some blowback as a pretense to slam the accelerator down and aim the steering wheel directly towards the cliff. That got the people's attention, and, in a panic, they began demanding CHANGE.

We worked long and hard and committed much to bring that change.

US foreign policy (the Empire) will be what destroys the USA. During the years of the Bush Regime, the world began seriously forming itself into defensive alliances against US. When Obama was elected, they took a short brake from those frantic defensive activities to give hope a chance. That era is now over.

In 2008 there was nothing more important for the nation than to repudiate the Bush Cabal and their militant foreign and domestic policies. Then, suddenly, the people's panic was redirected towards one of the side-effects of the egregious foreign policy, to wit: the economy. And, when I heard Obama, during the campaign, talking about reestablishing relations with South America, my heart sank a bit. To the uninformed and misinformed, conflict-weary majority, that might sound great, but to someone aware of what the previous US relationship with South America had been and therefore what RE-establish means - not so much.

So, what now of Obama and the Democratic Party and the Democrats and the democrats? The Democrats are angry at the democrats because the democrats stay loyal to their values before the man. I feel their pain. I certainly don't want the psycho Republicans back in power. But, who betrayed whom?

In 12/08 and early 09, the people should have been celebrating, and thereby solidifying, their hard won victory rather than worshiping the untested man they had placed in office to implement it. It's the Democrats that should have started sticking Obama's feet in the fire when he started naming his cabinet. He knew that Clinton was strong and that she had only lost her chance at the big chair because she had established herself as a war dog. So Obama appoints her Secretary of State? Then comes the rest of the melange of Zionist war dogs and corporate banksters? Good grief! I and others were told to be quiet for six months, to give Obama a chance and not give ammo to the psycho Republicans. After six months we were told to give him a year. Now we're closing out 2010 and the psycho Republicans, with nothing but nebulous fear and a sack full of scapegoats, will probably retake the White House in 2012. It could be that the only hope now for the Democratic Party and for the nation and it's people and the people of the planet is for the democrats to demand a redo in the 2012 primaries. And, this time, demand that the corporate press allow voices like Dean and Kucinich at least be heard.

Just one man's opinion

but

"Democratic Underground" does have two words in it.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Thank you for your comments, L Cutter! And WELCOME TO DU!
You have a keen understanding of the problem--the deliberately hidden aspect of the ENORMOUS disorder in U.S. foreign policy--that the rest of the world is not going to put up with this any more. It is plain to see in Latin America--the most hidden region of all (nearly invisible in the corpo-fascist media)--if you are paying attention and vigorously pursue alternative information. And this is going to have grave consequences for "we the people" in this very troubled land. I totally agree with this assessment. And because you see it all so clearly, I want to say this to you.

Do not despair! Understand that the propaganda and the mechanisms of control are designed to make you and all of us despair.

This stat stands out to me. Nearly 60% of the American people opposed the Iraq War (Feb. '03, all polls). That is a remarkable fact, in view of the overwhelming war propaganda that was coming down, even from once respected news organizations like the New York Slimes. So how could the president go to war with that level of disapproval from the get-go? (Back in the Vietnam War, it took nearly a decade of war for anti-war sentiment to get above 50%).

Several months earlier, in Oct. '02, two things happened, the second one being the most important: The Anthrax Congress passed the "Iraq War Resolution," giving their power over war away to Bush Jr. And in the same month, they passed a $3.9 billion e-voting boondoggle, to fast-track electronic voting systems all over the country, run on 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by a handful of private, rightwing-connected corporations, with absolutely no requirement for audit/recount controls. They did not require that the states buy these machines. But the $3.9 billion and heavy duty and very corrupt lobbying accomplished the task.

U.S. voting systems are now completely non-transparent, and largely (80%) controlled by ONE, private, far-rightwing connected corporations--ES&S (which just bought out Diebold).

I won't go into all of what I think this means--and has meant--as to far rightwing billionaires and corporate moguls directly controlling election results, except to say that this 'TRADE SECRET' control of the voting system is so powerful as to permit them to be SUBTLE--to play our system like a piano, with deep crescendos of fascism on the one end, and high twitters of mostly substanceless "liberalism" when it suits the "concerto" they are composing.

And there are three serious lessons to be learned from this:

1. They greatly fear the American people and have taken unusual measures to control us. If Americans were mostly stupid sheep or stupid fascists, they wouldn't have gone to such trouble. They wouldn't need to. IN THE SAME MONTH. They did it IN THE SAME MONTH as the "Iraq War Resolution"--fast-tracked an easily riggable vote counting system that could keep the war going FOREVER; a system that could easily override all our effort, all our donations, all our activism, all our commitment to peace and justice, all our common sense. It's a sort of left-handed compliment. Take heart!

2. What we SEE of our political system--its characters, its policies--is NOT a reflection of us (of "we, the people"--it barely resembles us); it is a reflection of THEM, of their characters and policies, and to some extent, it is a reflection of what they THINK of us (utter contempt). I have never ever bought that the American people are stupid sheep--not even at the height of Bushwhackism. But that's what the few fascist billionaires who are calling the shots want us to think of ourselves, or of our fellow and sister Americans. Stupid sheep, ignorant assholes, putrid bigot rednecks who re-elect an idiot like Bush Jr! We need to resist this portrait of America. It is very, very, VERY false.

3. We need to be as practical and strategic as are those who have nearly destroyed our democracy. We need to attend directly to the source of our power--our vote--and undo the damage to our vote counting system. Without transparent vote counting--vote counting that we can all see and understand, vote counting in the PUBLIC venue--we are powerless to begin reform. And this is still a DOABLE project. There is NO FEDERAL LAW that requires "TRADE SECRET' voting. It was all done by means of corruption (the $3.9 billion e-voting boondoggle, the heavy and corrupt lobbying at the state/local level). Control over choice of voting systems remains at the state/local level, where ordinary people have more potential influence than we do in Washington. It will take a widespread citizen movement--like the civil rights movement of the 1960s--but it is doable.

Our worst problem is demoralization. We are victims of a system that is aimed at our demoralization. And our second worst problem (or maybe our first) is that they have been successful at entirely black-holing the story of the private, corporate takeover of our vote counting system, and the entire loss of its transparency. And these two things are, of course, related. No matter how hard we work in the political sphere, we can EASILY, without detection, be overridden. And we have been, believe me.

True representatives of our people will always be a minority in Congress--mere tokens permitted to win because it maintains the delusion that has been foisted upon us--as long as we have the 'TRADE SECRET' vote tabulation system. The same in state legislatures and other bodies. Thus, even if an Obama is permitted to be elected to the White House (and I think he really was elected), he has little or no power. No "New Deal" Congress will ever be elected.

I think there are other ways that Obama has been curtailed, some of it perhaps by his own doing--deals he had to make. But the bottom line is, he can be yanked in 2012, whether he 'wins' at that time or not. And in both cases--2008 and likely in 2012 (if he is permitted to win)--his mandate is SHAVED (%'s deducted from his vote, further reducing his "bully power" for reform) and he is stuck with a very unrepresentative, pro-war profiteers, pro-corporate, Puke/"Blue Dog"-infested Congress.

There are, of course, other things going on, huge problems in our system--the corpo-fascist press and its hypnotizing narratives, and the utterly filthy campaign contribution system (now much worse than it ever was). But the end-stage control--and the bottom line of our ability to start turning things around--is the 'TRADE SECRET' voting system, and it is still fixable by us. It will take a lot of effort but it is DOABLE, and it is furthermore ESSENTIAL.

KNOW what they've done to you and to our people. Then get practical. How did they do it? "TRADE SECRET' vote counting screams manipulation. That is the actual mechanism of power. Voting is very nearly a definition of our sovereignty. And our votes are now blips on a screen in some far rightwing billionaire's nerd basement.
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VioletLake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. It will be worthwhile to post this by itself in GD. nt
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-03-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. good post.
I agree with you, 100%.
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L Cutter Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-04-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Thank you for the welcome
Thank you for the welcome and the acknowledgment. Since discovering this forum, during the Honduras coup of 09, I have learned to open a Peace Patriot post with the anticipation of a good read.

While this one did not disappoint, and I agree with you 100% on the issue of the e-vote, I regret that we diverge in our opinions concerning its priority level; and, our "dumb redneck" detection meters seems to be set at different levels - perhaps because I live in the center of one of the highest concentrations of them in the nation.

Edit

At this point I deleted a long diatribe that I had been pounding out on my keyboard about Puritans and witch burning and slavery and native genocide and Monroe Doctrines and competing Empires and anti-commie warriors, and being "The indispensable Nation/people" (sorta like being "The Chosen People" but with corporatism being the God), and people blindly trying to follow well established memmes.

So, I scraped all that and went to my garden were thoughts grow along with the vegetables, and this is what I thunk about that:

Suffice it to say that I agree wholeheartedly with your concern about the e-vote machines, but not so much about the nature of the people, and therefore the priority ranking. People are like concrete; a viscous liquid that can be formed into any shape by a skilled manipulator. But, once set, the only thing that can change it's form is dynamite or a vigorous application of the sledgehammer. People do not become foolish from watching Fox News, people watch Fox News because they like their foolishness verified and publicly validated by some authority.


But, fear not that I might fall into despair. The silver linings keep me on a positive track .


And, to fill in for what I took out, a final 'note' about the Emperor's storm-troopers from a long abandoned web site.


http://shadowvoices.net/politics.html


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