Venezuela Offered Aid to Colombian Rebels

[robcon]

Source: WaPo

"High-ranking officials in Venezuela offered to help Colombian guerrillas obtain surface-to-air missiles meant to change the balance of power in their war with the Colombian government, according to internal rebel documents.

Venezuelan officials served as middlemen with Australian arms dealers and agreed to help the rebel commanders travel to the Middle East to receive missile training, according to files on computer hard drives seized by Colombian authorities and shown to The Washington Post. In interviews, Colombian officials said they have no evidence that the guerrillas obtained the antiaircraft missiles but added that Venezuelan authorities appear to have provided light arms, thousands of rounds of ammunition and rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

The disclosures have already started to reverberate in the Bush administration and among Latin America policymakers on Capitol Hill, where a small group of Republicans has proposed classifying Venezuela, a major oil exporter to the United States, as a state sponsor of terrorism. The United States and Europe long ago blacklisted the rebel organization, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, as a terrorist group. "

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/14/AR2008051403785.html

---

Chavez seems to be bent on destabilizing Latin America, joining with a terrorist group to undermine the Colombian government.

[the other one]

1. As opposed to the United States

which pours money into a right-wing gov't. under the guise of fighting a drug war that is based on United States demand for cocaine.

Yeah, blame Chavez.

[Zorro]

5. So you're OK

with Venezuelan officials helping FARC obtain SAMs?

[the other one]

6. I am against ALL war, thus the answer is no. Are you OK with

the war on drugs and the United States financing and arming a gov't. that actively uses a paramilitary to terrorize its own people in the name of said war on drugs?

[ronnie624]

8. These accusations

are made by the Colombian government, and thus far, they have not been corroborated by other sources. From the article:

"In interviews, Colombian officials said they have no evidence that the guerrillas obtained the antiaircraft missiles..."

The article claims that "there is no evidence that anyone tampered with the hard drives after they were seized..", however, actual quotes from the INTERPOL report say otherwise:

- "Using their forensic tools, they (the Interpol experts) found a total of 48,055 files for which the timestamps indicated that they had either been created, accessed, modified or deleted as a result of the direct access to the eight seized exhibits by Colombian authorities"

- "The actual seizure of the eight computer exhibits occurred between 5:50 a.m. and 7:50 a.m. (local time at the place of seizure, GMT -5:00) on Saturday, 1 March. However, it was not until more than 48 hours later that the eight seized exhibits were given to the computer forensic specialists of the Colombian Judicial Police," the report goes on to say."

- "the Colombian Judicial Police, did not conform to internationally recognised principles for handling electronic evidence by law enforcement."

You are being misled by 'news' sources that are complicit in advancing the Bush administrations policies in Latin America.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnie624]

14. The quote is from INTERPOL's report.

They say that files have been altered. The actual quote is:

"Using their forensic tools, they (the Interpol experts) found a total of 48,055 files for which the timestamps indicated that they had either been created, accessed, modified or deleted as a result of the direct access to the eight seized exhibits by Colombian authorities"

Can you expand on your statement that the Colombian government could not Alter computer files?

[Tempest]

16. And he had the nerve to call you an idiot

It appears his hatred of Chavez has made him irrational.

[Zorro]

17. So do you believe

the Colombians installed 48,000+ phony documents on the laptop?

I think that's ludicrous to believe that.

[Tempest]

18. You are being disingenuous

So do you believe the Colombians installed 48,000+ phony documents on the laptop?

That's not what the Interpol report says.

If you are going to continue with this, at least be honest about it. You can start by reading the text before making wild-ass claims.

[Zorro]

19. From the source of my wild-ass claims

<snip>

...Using sophisticated forensic tools, INTERPOL's experts determined that the eight seized computer exhibits contained more than 600 gigabytes of data, including 37,872 written documents, 452 spreadsheets, 210,888 images, 22,481 web pages, 7,989 email addresses, 10,537 multimedia files (sound and video), and 983 encrypted files...

<snip>

http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/PressReleases/PR2008/PR200817.asp

That is indeed what the Interpol report says. You need help toting up those numbers?

Do you believe the Colombians installed 48,000+ phony documents?

Be honest.

[Tempest]

20. You still don't get it, do you?

"Using their forensic tools, they (the Interpol experts) found a total of 48,055 files for which the timestamps indicated that they had either been created, accessed, modified or deleted as a result of the direct access to the eight seized exhibits by Colombian authorities"

And it appears you never will.


Oh, and then there's this:

"Access to the data contained in the eight FARC computer exhibits between 1 March 2008, when they were seized by Colombian authorities, and 3 March 2008 at 11:45 a.m., when they were turned over to… the Colombian Judicial Police, did not conform to internationally recognised principles for handling electronic evidence by law enforcement.

"When law enforcement directly accesses seized electronic evidence without first making physical images of the data, such access leaves traces of the relevant law enforcement officer’s accessing and viewing of the evidence.

"Direct access may complicate validating this evidence for purposes of its introduction in a judicial proceeding, because law enforcement is then required to demonstrate or prove that the direct access did not have a material impact on the purpose for which the evidence is intended," the report adds.

[Zorro]

21. Why can't you answer the question?

I'm "getting" that you want to avoid answering the question.

Let me repeat it for you: Do you believe the Colombians installed 48,000+ phony documents?

I do not believe the Colombians installed 48,000+ phony documents. That's my answer, and I'm being honest.

See how simple that is?

[Tempest]

22. Again you're being disingenuous

Getting an answer wasn't your intention in your original post. You asked the question as an accusation the poster was lying.

And since you insisted on insulting the poster, your post was deleted which means we can't go back to it.


I don't believe the Columbians installed 48,000 phony documents, but then again, that's not the point.

The point is that the Columbians HAD violated international law enforcement procedures by creating, deleting and modifying most of the files on the laptops without first creating an image of the original hard drives.

Because of that, we don't know what kind of fraud and deceit the Columbians, and their American counterparts, may have engaged in. Hence, the claims of the Columbians and Bush administration should be considered with high suspicion.

[Zorro]

23. Disingenuous I am not

But let's be civil.

I noticed you left out "accessing" as one of the actions in your description.

A couple of points about that:

1. I doubt that the Colombian forces had an IT guy along with them when they searched the FARC camp. So I think it's quite logical that they'd turn the computer on and start looking for the juicy parts prior to making an image backup. I know I'd probably do the same thing; wouldn't you in the same situation?

2. I also doubt that the Colombians are interested in using the material revealed in the documents as court evidence. What I suspect they will do is follow the uncovered leads, and use that evidence in court, if it gets that far.

Frankly I understand that there's reason to doubt the authenticity of the recovered material. However, I really don't think this will be used as a pretext to go after the innocent; I think there's an exceptional wealth of information on the truly guilty that will keep the Colombian government busy for a long while.

And that's why both Chavez' and Correa's responses are so telling, IMHO. They are quite concerned that the depth of their involvement with FARC will be revealed, which will expose them as both liars and terrorist supporters. That's why they are working so hard to discredit the material, without knowing what is really in those files.

And I wouldn't get too worked up over my "insulting" the poster. He and his cadre of sympathizers don't mind dishing it out either.

[Tempest]

15. Are you really so biased you failed to notice where the text came from?

It came from the Interpol report, the same report you are using as ammunition against Chavez.

Talk about being an idiot.

You're something worse.

[Tempest]

10. Interpol: Columbia's government manipulated files on laptops

"Using their forensic tools, they (the Interpol experts) found a total of 48,055 files for which the timestamps indicated that they had either been created, accessed, modified or deleted as a result of the direct access to the eight seized exhibits by Colombian authorities between the time of their seizure on 1 March 2008 and 3 March 2008 at 11:45 a.m.

"The actual seizure of the eight computer exhibits occurred between 5:50 a.m. and 7:50 a.m. (local time at the place of seizure, GMT -5:00) on Saturday, 1 March. However, it was not until more than 48 hours later that the eight seized exhibits were given to the computer forensic specialists of the Colombian Judicial Police," the report goes on to say.

"Access to the data contained in the eight FARC computer exhibits between 1 March 2008, when they were seized by Colombian authorities, and 3 March 2008 at 11:45 a.m., when they were turned over to… the Colombian Judicial Police, did not conform to internationally recognised principles for handling electronic evidence by law enforcement.

"When law enforcement directly accesses seized electronic evidence without first making physical images of the data, such access leaves traces of the relevant law enforcement officer’s accessing and viewing of the evidence.

"Direct access may complicate validating this evidence for purposes of its introduction in a judicial proceeding, because law enforcement is then required to demonstrate or prove that the direct access did not have a material impact on the purpose for which the evidence is intended," the report adds.

[sinkingfeeling]

2. Read any USA propaganda lately?

[Larkspur]

3. More US propaganda

Bush can't get the Saudi's to lower oil prices so he's hoping to forment a coup against Chavez to replace Chavez with a US compliant vassal who will gladly sell oil to us cheaper and screw their own people.

[redqueen]

4. Yeah, sure. And Iraq had ties to Al Qaeda.

Shameless.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

7. Everything you need to know...

about what this bullshit is really about is right here in this sentance:

"The disclosures have already started to reverberate in the Bush administration and among Latin America policymakers on Capitol Hill, where a small group of Republicans has proposed classifying Venezuela, a major oil exporter to the United States, as a state sponsor of terrorism."

For the retarded here (and there appears to be quite a few), this is a exact lather/rinse/repeat of the leadup to the Iraq invasion.

Same ol' same ol', brought to you by Bush and the Oil Companies.

[ronnie624]

9. This phrase also speaks volumes:

"Latin America policymakers on Capitol Hill..."

Who are these arrogant, elitist bastards to be 'making policy' in Latin America or anywhere else, especially through the use of propaganda and covert war? They need to leave Latin America alone, and allow the nations there to determine their own political and economic destinies. It's the right thing to do.

[Robbien]

11. Old Story. This is just an opinion piece from the rabid right

Rehashing the rehash of the propaganda being pushed by the Bush Admin.

[Cieran]

12. Ah yes, the magic laptop that never stops giving.

This magic laptop has provided new "damning" info every couple days, always something to slander Chavez with. Amazing how they always "find" some "lost" info on that magic laptop.