Tell me this isn't going to happen here at DU. Please?

[FredStembottom]

People are going to weigh in and deride folks who are happy about Rham leaving!?!?

How is that possible? He hated us from all available evidence.

Someone explain this to me.:banghead:

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

6. Deep vein thrombosis is no laughing matter

[jgraz]

48. Are you saying that the OP is intentionally trying to Depress Voter Turnout?

In other words, are you accusing him of intentionally trying to make Democrats lose?

If not, why do you continue to post this in every thread you disagree with?

[Aramchek]

2. Rahm didn't even know you existed, let alone hate you. He was busy actually doing things.

[phleshdef]

4. LOL. I know right. The degree to which some people let internet politics go to their head is amazing

Not just on this but on just about everything. Its like people have convinced themselves they are characters in a hypothetical Obama season of the West Wing and its all played out on political discussion boards.

[stevenleser]

23. I know. The drama is something. I've said it before, everything is turned into Hamlet's last scene

Everything is raised to the level of poisoned daggers, stabbing and death.

[prolesunited]

46. I think you nailed it

Although the characters in the West Wing were more articulate and intelligent.

[FredStembottom]

9. "us"

n/t

[Aramchek]

16. you.

[Hello_Kitty]

60. The first part of your sentence was pretty obvious. eom

[yurbud]

63. ...for corporate donors and his past and future private sector employers

[Fruittree]

64. Thank you for posting what I was thinking..

[bigwillq]

3. You are free to be happy or unhappy.

And others have the right to deride those who are happy or unhappy.

[Nite Owl]

8. Deride no

disagree ok. There is a difference and some people here don't realize that.

[grasswire]

5. people are unrec-ing this thread?!

I rec'd it for your images. I just love seeing that Hiroshige.

[FredStembottom]

18. Hiroshige rock(ed)!

Thanks, grasswire.

[stray cat]

7. Maybe he just hated you; he did't know me

DU in not a monolithic blob just like the democratic party and America. I didn't sign away my brain or individuality by posting on DU

[FredStembottom]

10. He shouldn't have hated even me.

And even I should not be derided.

[mkultra]

11. I dont even know who you are so you cant be with "US"

[FredStembottom]

12. us=DU members

just to be clear.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FredStembottom]

17. Thanks, mkultra! You surprised me.

That response was so over the top that I got a truly hearty laugh from it.

If you get time you might want to read over what I've written over the years here.

A lot of it is about convincing disappointed Democrats to stick with the party at every election. That the changes many of us would like to see are truly buried under the Republicans. That change time is during the primaries.

So why hate me?

I not only don't hate you, I do GOTV stuff with all types of Democrats every cycle (except 2008 when illness stopped me). Depending on where you live, maybe with you.

I support policies. Democratic policies. I don't tie my support to individuals. And when an individual with great influence consistently advocates un-Democratic policies to our Democratic president, I can't help but be pleased to see that particular person lose his influence.

So, again, someone explain to me why being happy about this guy, this un-Democratic guy leaving, gets me a tounge-lashing here at Democratic Underground?

[mkultra]

35. because the "angry left" is a right wing propoganda machine

Obama and his entire administration is doing an awesome job on multiple fronts. I guess Rham leaving might be considered on the notch on the belt of some.

[Ozymanithrax]

14. Rahm carried out the President's policies.

The President is President Obama not President Emanuel.

I never understood the deep antipathy for Rahm, but I've never angry enough at a tool to throw it in the trash.

I don't expect any great change in Obama's policies. He was a community organizer and has run his administration like a community organizer. He seeks consensus rather than cowboy his way through.

I am not attacking or deriding people for partying on Rahm's political grave. I think that a lot of the anger at Rahm was misplaced.

[FredStembottom]

24. Hi, Ozy!

Thanks for a nice useful reply!

I recently read Jonathon Alter's the Defining Moment. It was all about just that. That a president's first act - choosing a cabinet - is kind of like launching a catapult. Hard to change the direction of the projectile after that.

Obama launched one that was all about currying favor with Republicans of all types while dividing his own party into worthies and un-worthies as an ultimate act of bowing to the Republicans.

This was a terrible idea and Rham authored it from what I can read.

I now hope that R's leaving signals an effort to unite all Democrats and divide the Republicans instead.

[Ozymanithrax]

30. I think that Obama new what he was doing in selecting Rahm..

because he knew Rahm fit his philosophy of consensus, his need to appeal to all sides. Obama did not want to kick ass, he wanted to community organize the government. Rahm's abrasive personality was an important tool. because he had a natural affinity to a lot of the "new" centrists Democrats, and Rahm is, at best, a moderate and I'd place him right of center.

I did not like Bush II's tough cowboy style figurehead government.

I don't think Obama's desire to find consensus and be a transformative figure that brings everyone together had much of a chance of broad success. But now that he has established that style, I suspect there is too much energy to change unless some equally powerful political or societal force is applied.

[FredStembottom]

43. I was just thinking yesterday...

.... how out if touch that vision was.

If this had been, maybe the 1980 elections, and Dems wanted to cool down the war-on-the-white-male perceptionthat was out there among all of my (white male) blue-collar friends.... then, yes. That would have been very practical, if nothing else.

But to try and do consensus, now? The white males are gone. They joined the other Party. The only way to get them back is to do what only Democrats have ever done. Truly protect the little guy against the priviledged few.

Enact the policies that bring our jobs home. Well-paid people are much happier. They support those who made it possible - in droves!

Thanks again, Ozy. Your post is really stimulating to me. I wonder if the plan we seem to both regret was an misguided attempt to do what I was just talking about? Get back the white, working class male?

Nawwww.....that idea just fell apart in my head.

Still, this nasty thread has turned out good for something!

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FredStembottom]

29. Thanks, Proud Dad!

I am not at my best today and salute you for doing the heavy-lifting.:patriot:

I will still spend my work-day wondering how any Democrat could possibly be sad about the man you described above - leaving - especially to the point of deriding fellow DU members.

If the Democratic Party is about excluding the common man, then I must ask, again and again, what is this thing now calling itself the Democratic party?

[ProudDad]

37. It appears that

it's completely devolved into one of the two right-wings of the Big Business Corporate War Party...

Maybe it always was...

During the 2008 pResidential race, I read the 1932 Democratic Party platform. The contrast with the 2008 campaign's timidity was STARTLING!

Check it out here (tidbits below):
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/the-democratic-party-platform-of-1932

Of course, to be fair, the FDR administration did VERY little that was in the 1932 platform -- just enough crumbs to save capitalism -- for a while...

I'm afraid that only the final collapse will substantially change anything but it would be refreshing to see a Democratic Administration that at least TRIED to do what needs to be done as the Earth warms up...

=====================================

In this time of unprecedented economic and social distress the Democratic Party declares its conviction that the chief causes of this condition were the disastrous policies pursued by our government since the World War, of economic isolation, fostering the merger of competitive businesses into monopolies and encouraging the indefensible expansion and contraction of credit for private profit at the expense of the public.

Those who were responsible for these policies have abandoned the ideals on which the war was won and thrown away the fruits of victory, thus rejecting the greatest opportunity in history to bring peace, prosperity, and happiness to our people and to the world.

They have ruined our foreign trade; destroyed the values of our commodities and products, crippled our banking system, robbed millions of our people of their life savings, and thrown millions more out of work, produced wide-spread poverty and brought the government to a state of financial distress unprecedented in time of peace.

The only hope for improving present conditions, restoring employment, affording permanent relief to the people, and bringing the nation back to the proud position of domestic happiness and of financial, industrial, agricultural and commercial leadership in the world lies in a drastic change in economic governmental policies.

<DIDN'T HAPPEN in 2009>

We advocate the spread of employment by a substantial reduction in the hours of labor, the encouragement of the shorter week by applying that principle in government service; we advocate advance planning of public works.

...

We advocate a Navy and an Army adequate for national defense, based on a survey of all facts affecting the existing establishments, that the people in time of peace may not be burdened by an expenditure fast approaching a billion dollars annually.
<HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA -- now it's bankrupting us to the tune of over $1.3 BILLION$ yearly!>

...

We advocate a firm foreign policy, including peace with all the world and the settlement of international disputes by arbitration; no interference in the internal affairs of other nations; and sanctity of treaties and the maintenance of good faith and of good will in financial obligations; adherence to the World Court with appending reservations; the Pact of Paris abolishing war as an instrument of national policy, to be made effective by provisions for consultation and conference in case of threatened violations of treaties.

...

equal rights to all; special privilege to none.
<Boy, Howdy, THAT Horse left the barn!>

[Ozymanithrax]

42. Progressives and the left detested and Demonized FDR...

They considered him a Bankster, and a the whole new deal as nothing more than a Corporate Con, at the time.

[ProudDad]

51. And your evidence for this "opinion" of yours is what? (n/t)

It is probably as true that real Progressives at the time were not satisfied with the (very) few Progressive/Socialist ideas he co-opted in order to save capitalism...

It's just as bad that capitalism wasn't allowed to die then as it is now that end-stage capitalism is being prolonged for more short-term profit for the capitalists.

And my republican, patrician grandmother (rest her soul) just called FDR that "damned man in the White House"...

[Ozymanithrax]

55. Not opinion, it was history.

These two threads here at DU cover the opinion the left and progressives had of FDR with links to historical sources for those statements.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x460799

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x407004

The complaints by the left, both the far left radicals and mainstream left sounds a lot like the criticism the progressive left now has for Obama.

Yes, Republicans did not like him. But they were far from being alone. The left consider him to be in the pockets of the big banks, that social security was too weak to ever work.

The difference, of course, is that we have the comfort perspective, of looking back over history.

[ProudDad]

66. Then the left was completely accurate then

just as we are now.

FDR saved capitalism for himself and his friends (many of whom repaid his kindness by reviling him for tossing ANY crumbs to the working classes)...

Obama IS a tool of the banksters (hell, he hired them to fill out his fucking "economic team") and didn't toss much in the way of crumbs to the working folks...nothing like even FDR finally did...

Obama (and Rahm, the subject of this thread, remember?) completely caved when it came to proposing or defending any REAL Progressive initiatives.

Hell, we wouldn't have minded a bit of co-opting of our program but, alas, they didn't even try.

[ProudDad]

65. It appears that accurate history is no longer welcome here on DU

or the oh, so fragile eyes of the true believers in the new lord were "offended" by my phrasing...

Belated thanks for the support though :hi:

[Ozymanithrax]

32. Obama is not a progressive, he is a left of center moderate liberal.

Obama ran his administrsation as a community organizer. He wanted to get the players at the table and find consensus. Rahm worked well in that role. He got people at the table, but the players did not really want to play and chose not to be organized.

That choice was Obama's not Rahm. It's like this, if you are shoveling shit, you don't get angry and shovel because the shit stinks. Rahm was Obama's choice of shovel. Rouse is another shovel, and Obama will continue to use the shovel the same way he used Rahm.

[ProudDad]

39. I agree that Obama is NOT a Progressive...

He's a corporate "liberal"...

Alas!

[Ozymanithrax]

40. I disagree with the whole "corporate "liberal"" thing. n/t

[ProudDad]

52. OK, he's corporate and NOT a liberal... (n/t)

[Ozymanithrax]

56. That is an inacurate statement, considering his policies.

He is a moderate, as was Clinton and even Carter in most things.

[ProudDad]

68. Clinton was corporate as HELL

NAFTA, GATT, WTO, begin the Global War On Terror (with that fucking "Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996" and he gave away the media to the Murdochs and GEs with the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Not to mention the Goldman Sachs economic team and repeal of Glass-Steagel - bringing on the Last Great Depression that much sooner.

Carter WAS a moderate and had his head handed to him by the republicans AND MOST OF HIS "FELLOW" DEMOCRATS in 1980!

Here's a fact, if the MoFos had listened to Carter when he spoke of conservation and alternative energy instead of stabbing him in the back, we wouldn't be facing the probable end of the Earth as a hospitable environment for large air-breathing mammals within the next couple of centuries.

[depakid]

58. Actually, the record is rather convincingly center right

though you're correct: cats don't up and change their stripes, so I expect to see more of the same.

[SwampG8r]

62. i think its

an offshoot of anti clintonism
rahm was a clinton guy before he was a obama guy
a lot of toes still may feel stepped on on both sides of the clinton/anti clinton folks
to many he is just another dlc conservaliberal
just a pet theory of mine

[CakeGrrl]

15. It's called "having people agree or disagree with your opinion"

If you can't handle that, not sure why you're on an internet message board.

[FredStembottom]

19. What was my opinion in the OP?

I expressed surprise and anguish that people would be attacked over what seems like a happy event for all Democrats.

You are anti-surprise?

Pro-attacks?

Unhappy Rham is leaving?

Expand on that third one for me.

[CakeGrrl]

28. I don't think he's as bad as the most vehement anti-Rahm contingent believes

But apart from that, I'm generally just not down with all the hand-wringing worry about the well-being of people who exchange opinions on the internet.

Some can really dish it out but can't take it. Some give as good as they get. That's the game.

[FredStembottom]

36. I understand your point now.

Thanks.

I would point out, however, that DU isn't just a random group of posters - like a chat room.
This a group that is supposedly united in some basic way and hopes to have some influence because of it.

So internal attacks on each other are, at least, quite significant for what it says about this unity.

Also, the discord here models what has happened to the Democratic Party at large. Our Demo leaders have divided the Party into worthies and un-worthies. They pronounce to the world that they aren't one of, you know, those Democrats (people w/o college. Workers. People with dirt on them)In fact they have nothing to do with the traditional Democratic policies that helped those Democrats at all.

And so we fight. We are divided because they divided us.

And that fella about to leave? Seems to have been the head divider.

[CakeGrrl]

38. A group is only as divided as it allows itself to be

There, in your statements, lie the seeds for setting up armed camps:

First, I'm not sure who comprises "Our Demo leaders". It's clear that you think Rahm was the head of this particular snake, but is it a small, set group of people? Does that include the President? Can I assume that you include Robert Gibbs after his comment referencing the "Professional Left"?

I don't feel marginalized. I don't feel insulted. I don't feel put down and trampled on.

Why is that?

And why do some people on this board feel that way?

The core of the "division" is that we have our opinions and many of us aren't likely to be swayed in another direction.

And when some people are unable to sway others to their way of thinking, the arguments get ugly. People take it personally and label others for not thinking or believing what they believe.

Is that Rahm Emanuel's fault? No. People have opinions about him. Whether they have the maturity and temperament to agree to disagree at the worst is up to them.

[VMI Dem]

20. Rahm is a sensible centrist piece of shit.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[niceypoo]

34. There is no such thing as a sensible centrist anymore

There is no middle. The right will never, ever, vote for him and 'centrist' Democrats (blue dogs) are to the right of Ronald Reagan.

[NoPasaran]

22. Only the gooberheads who can't spell his name correctly

[FredStembottom]

25. Damn that spell-checker!

:blush:

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

31. I thought we didn't march in lockstep?

And now we are scolded for expressing a different opinion.

[bigwillq]

41. Or we're called whiners!

:rofl:

Scolded and called whiners! How progressive! :rofl:

[Jennicut]

33. Rahm was not my favorite Dem politician around but newsflash, people will disagree with you at times

It happens.

[FredStembottom]

45. And we come here to talk about these things.

Hi Jennicut!

I don't think I have ever spoken with you before.

Welcome!

[Jennicut]

49. Yes, I like to look at DU as a place to agree to disagree sometimes.

I have been here since 2006 and sometimes it does get crazy. But it is for the most part one big family, although a bit dysfunctional at times. I haven't been posting a much lately because I have been student teaching (to be a preschool teacher) but I try to come on when I can. DU is too addictive to leave!

[FredStembottom]

44. Gotta go to work, folks!

We'll talk more tonight.

[PopSixSquish]

47. I've Personally Never Understood the Hatred Toward Rahm

I know folks who know him very well and have worked with him. Yes, he can be rude and arrogant and obnoxious. But he can also be a real mensch.

Yelling and screaming about how Rahm controlled President Obama is simply not true and a disservice to both men. Rahm will argue his point until the President makes a decision and then he runs with the decision.

I have been told that if you bring your ideas and make your case about how to do something better, faster, easier, etc and convince him and others of said strategy, then he becomes your biggest fan and champion. However, if you don't and just complain, then he will cut you off at the knees.

One friend, whose known him since the Clinton White House, says that if Rahm were a football coach, then his team would be the grind it out, pound the rock, running team. Get yards on each play and if you have to win ugly, then you win ugly. If you win by a field goal, you win by a field goal.

But you still win...

[vaberella]

50. ~sigh~ I never saw Rahm as my enemy. My enemy was with policy makers---ie Congress.

You an stress over who disagrees with and praise the fact Rahm is leaving. The real handicap is fully working and causing the same problems---they are entirely in Congress and they are the ones who turn on anything Obama does.

[Chan790]

61. We view this at odd-ends.

I blame Rahm for Congress. It's a beast of his making when he was chair of the DCCC and he was hired by this administration, in part (by his own surmising and the role he acknowledges being explicitly given by the President), to twist arms on the Hill and push the President's agenda...if Congress is the problem, Rahm Emanuel is the progenitor of that problem twice-over.

He's not my enemy, I just think he believes inane falsehoods and is a fucking incompetent; I hope he loses in Chicago. (I can say that because it's a one-party town) If we could find clear to lose some of these other consistent-failure top-dwellers of the Democratic Party we might find an actual party identity that consists of more than "laundry"...just because someone says they're a Democrat doesn't mean they're a Democrat, we should be more discerning than that. Being a Democrat means possessing shared Democratic ideals...Rahm Emanuel has none. He's a cheap path-of-least-resistance opportunist in an expensive suit. Good riddance to bad fish.

[Codeine]

53. Rahm didn't hate me.

He worked to get things that are important to me accomplished. Not as much and not as complete as I'd like, but better than the alternative would have done, and for that I doff my cap to the man.

[boppers]

54. He didn't hate all of us.

He hated people seeding and fomenting divisiveness.

[robcon]

57. Ridiculous OP "He hated us from all available evidence."

Simplistic. Stupid. Insultingly offensive.

[FredStembottom]

59. It's a reference to the "F--king retarded" thing.

n/t

[vaberella]

67. We have more important things to do here than whinge endlessly on Rahm. n/t