If Howard Dean does not "primary" Barack Obama, will you still consider him a strong progressive?

[LoZoccolo]

[rurallib]

1. ??? i surely do not understand this question.

[LoZoccolo]

3. If he doesn't run, wouldn't that mean that he is caving to the DNC establishment?

[Ken Burch]

12. Will you please stop badgering people about this?

And no...to anticipate where I think you're going with this...accepting a Dean non-candidacy would NOT obligate a person to accept all of Obama's compromises.

[LoZoccolo]

15. Doesn't it mean that Dean himself accepts Obama's compromises?

[Ken Burch]

16. No, it doesn't have to mean that at all.

It may just mean that Dean doesn't personally WANT to run for president anymore. You can't just assume that it would mean acceptance of Obama's decisions.

[Ken Burch]

2. Useless question

He doesn't HAVE to stand against Obama to prove he's a strong progressive.

[LoZoccolo]

6. Wouldn't he be letting Barack Obama get away with something?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. He's not going to do it, and yes, I will still see him as a strong

progressive.

[LoZoccolo]

8. You don't see it as a compromise for practicality's sake?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

9. I don't understand your question...

What would be a compromise?

[LoZoccolo]

10. Howard Dean would be letting Barack Obama do things that he disagrees with just to get along.

[Ken Burch]

11. Are you going to end up arguing that, if we're ok with Dean not challenging Obama

on the grounds of "practicality" that this means we have to accept everything Obama has done in the name of "practicality"?

You're clearly setting up something cynical with this loaded thread.

[LoZoccolo]

14. Do you think this thread implies that?

[Ken Burch]

18. Yes. Your threads are always about implication rather than direct statements, anyway

Why didn't you just say "If Dean Doesn't Run, it means he's OK with what Obama's done and all progressives should feel obligated to feel ok with it as well".

That's obviously your point...just for once come right out and say what you mean.

[LoZoccolo]

19. There could be another point that I'm making.

[Ken Burch]

21. Then save us all the trouble and just MAKE it.

You don't need to try to trick people into agreeing with you. Just SAY what you mean. OK?

It's never progressive to be passive-aggressive.

[LoZoccolo]

23. Was Socrates a progressive?

[Ken Burch]

25. This isn't the Socratic method

Just say what you want to say. You don't need to do this kind of thing.

[LoZoccolo]

26. Wouldn't it be better if you said it instead?

[Ken Burch]

28. I am not inside YOUR head

I don't know why you even started this thread. Wouldn't it be enough just to say you don't think Dean should challenge Obama? Why are you determined to try to trick people into sounding like they agree with you even when you know perfectly well they don't?

Will you please just SAY exactly what you mean? You're being childish.

[LoZoccolo]

30. If they sound like that, wouldn't they still be able to explain why they still disagree?

[Ken Burch]

33. They're all perfectly capable of doing so.

But what you're trying to do is to set up a false premise that you can use to say "see? You can't disagree with me because you agreed with THAT".

It's not an honorable debating tactic.

[LoZoccolo]

36. Why not just let them refute me?

[Ken Burch]

38. Why don't you just SAY what you want them to refute?

You don't need to do tricks.

[LoZoccolo]

41. Are trial lawyers and police employing tricks when they question suspected criminals?

[Ken Burch]

42. Are you equating everyone else in this thread to a suspected criminal?

:wtf:

[LoZoccolo]

46. Am I equating them in every respect?

[Ken Burch]

71. Is it appropriate to equate them in ANY respect?

It's not a crime to question whether Obama should be renominated.

[LoZoccolo]

77. Are they both capable of answering questions?

[Ken Burch]

78. Are you just trying to turn this in to the "Questions Only" sketch on WHOSE LINE IS IT, ANYWAY?

n/t.

[Ken Burch]

31. Actually, I.F. Stone thought he wasn't

In his book, Stone concluded that Socrates was guilty of trying to induce the youth of Athens to join him in an elitist, anti-democratic revolt.

[Ken Burch]

43. Is there a reason you won't give this a rest?

n/t.

[LoZoccolo]

47. Do you keep responding to my posts?

[Trajan]

5. perhaps ...

But how will this improve his golf game ? ...

(non sequitur)

[MannyGoldstein]

7. Dr. Dean is a strong moderate

To the far left of Obama, to be sure.

[frazzled]

13. Not really

I never saw Howard Dean to the left of anyone. For a governor who sold the Vermont Yankee plant to Entergy and rallied around the cry to "move" the Muslim Community Center away from the Ground Zero neighborhood ... I see Howard Dean as a kind of blooper.

[vaberella]

17. He wanted to move the community center?! ugh. n/t

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[vaberella]

54. Ay? I'm from New York and saw nothing wrong with it and wanted it there.

It's better than the empty space that is there.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

20. Most progressives in Vermont were never really enthused about Dean

The dynamic between his administration and progressives(from what I've read) was pretty much like the dynamic between Gatekeeper Rahm and the left.

[LoZoccolo]

22. Does that mean that you do not consider him a strong progressive already?

[Ken Burch]

24. I'm saying his decision on whether or not to challenge Obama in the primary

would and should have nothing to do whether he's considered a strong progressive nationally or not. What I was saying in this subthread is not related to that.

Stop the passive-aggressive tactics already. It's not cool to try to trick people into making it look like they agree with you.

[killbotfactory]

27. If he doesn't eat Obama's children on live TV then he is no true progressive.

[Ken Burch]

29. If he does without trimming the fat, he's no true nutrionist

n/t.

[styersc]

65. Don't give the GOP any ideas.

Or those poor girls don't have a chance!

[dkf]

32. Howard Dean would never challenge a sitting Democratic President.

He would not put us through anything that would jeopardize the good of the country, helping Republicans to win the Presidency.

He is the politician I admire the most.

[CakeGrrl]

34. In other words, wouldn't a "true" progressive do their civic duty and primary him?

Why won't they come forward and stop this runaway corporate-loving train of a Presidency?

Good question for those who think a primary challenge is necessary or at least a good thing to do.

[pscot]

35. Is this a form of self=flagellation?

Or are you just picking a fight?

[Ken Burch]

39. he's pocking it...AND picking it...

pick-pock, pick-pock, pick-pock...regular as clockwork.

[Name removed]

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[quaker bill]

37. Of course

He is not obligated to run for President to prove something to me, or to you for that matter.

[OHdem10]

40. I see him as strong and very wise politically not to primary Obama

[ReggieVeggie]

45. another flamebait post

[CakeGrrl]

49. Why? It's pretty much a 'yes' or 'no' question.

People go on and on and on ad nauseum about the President's failure to be a progressive, what's so threatening about asking this?

[Ken Burch]

66. Why is a question that even NEEDS to be asked?

It's not like there's a massive "Draft Dean" movement out there.

What LoZo seems to be trying to do is to use this unnecessary question to trick people into agreeing with him against their wills.

[CakeGrrl]

70. People can always not respond.

I don't see why it's so insidious. I see a lot of threads that ask questions that don't need to be asked IMO.

[grahamhgreen]

48. Didn't he cave on HCR?

- Warning! Reverse flamebait post! -

[Cali_Democrat]

50. Actually one could make the argument that Howard Dean not running makes him a strong progressive.

[DFW]

51. I just spent last Tuesday with Howard. You misunderstand what he's doing these days.

Howard is no longer interested in running for President. Period. He is running himself
ragged all over the world helping organize fledgeling Democratic-style parties and
movements, helping with brother Jim's DFA, and is very much attached to the kind of
grass-roots style "ground up" politics from whence his Deaniacs sprang back in 2003.

He has by no means at all abandoned his progressive views. I don't understand how not
suddenly jumping back into the presidential race could somehow be an indication of this.

I had asked him back in early 2009 what he would do if Obama passed him up for a position
in his administration. He said he'd be "raising hell for causes he believed in." He has
been true to his word. He is constantly on the go these days, and the distraction of a
primary challenge he doesn't even want to mount is the last thing he's interested in.
His credentials as a strong progressive are unassailable. When we got off the train in
New York last Tuesday, we walked up from Penn Station to Times Square--where he left to
take the subway to where he was going. Howard is still very much one of us.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GoCubsGo]

55. What a stupid question.

Will YOU be considered a strong progressive if YOU don't "primary" Barack Obama?

[Stoic]

56. I love Howard Dean but they'd play the "Scream" 24/7 on him.

I want to see him in the House or Senate, though.

[tekisui]

57. Auto Unrec.

[ClassWarrior]

60. Wow, what a ham-handed attempt at a trick question.

:eyes:

NGU.

[Ken Burch]

67. You can actually SMELL the ham on his hands

(not that you wanted that particular olfactory image, but still...)

[JoePhilly]

61. Dean is just another Obama apologist.

As are the Democratic Senators who voted for HCR and Financial reform ... and those who vote for the budget comprise.

Bad Dems!! Bad!!

[AtomicKitten]

62. HDean is and has always been a moderate. A pragmatic, progressive moderate.

And he has made it clear he will not run for prez in 2012.

[themaguffin]

63. Why is he obligated to run????

[Chef Eric]

64. If a tree doesn't fall in the woods, does that mean it is standing up for tea party nonsense? nt

[Arkana]

68. Swear to God, dude, you're just out to piss people off, aren't you?

Eh, I can respect that.

[Shiver]

69. Rec'd, because you amuse me.

:rofl:

[quiller4]

72. Yes. And a loyal Democrat, too.

I have no use for a Democrat who primaries a Democratic President seeking re-election. It took me years to forgive Ted Kennedy for giving us Ronnie.

[Ken Burch]

74. Ted didn't give us Ronnie

Carter's insistence on putting low inflation before full employment, plus his pointless loyalty to the Shah(the loyalty that provoked the Iranian embassy takeover)are what gave us Ronnie.

Carter was doomed to lose even if Teddy had sat that one out.

[BlueMTexpat]

76. Carter did NOT have pointless loyalty to the Shah.

It was actually his emphasis on human rights reforms, including the return of Ayatollah Khomeini who had been in exile for years, that helped remove the Shah. It was pressure from powerful Republicans, including Chase Manhattan's Joseph Verner Reed, that literally forced Carter's hand in reluctantly allowing the Shah to enter the US for treatment. ABC's Nightline coverage kept flashing images of Iranian militants and Reagan's people were negotiating with Iran behind Carter's back. Carter's financial policies were working, as one can see if one compares the Carter era to the first Reagan admin.

It was all this and so-called Reagan Dems who gave us Reagan.

[center rising]

73. Oh God, not Howard Dean

Please, don't want the screamer anywhere near Obama

[BlueMTexpat]

75. What an absolutely stupid, useless and know-nothing question!

Am I alone in finding that the average post on DU seems to reflect a drop in IQ generally since the 2008 elections?

There are still some excellent posts and posters. But some of my all-time favorites have either left or never post here any more. In their place, it's idiocy like this question, repetitive "birther" nonsense and anything that will slime or bash the President.

[Avant Guardian]

79. Bizarre OP

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. I'm not primarying BO and I know I'm a strong progressive.

The answer to your question is yes. Progressives who choose to not run for president are still progressives.