Obama is the most progressive President in decades.

[ProSense]

President Obama is the most progressive President in decades, and his achievements support that assertion.

Clinton may have stared down Republicans, but he also signed the repeal of Glass-Steagall and the Enron loophole into law.

Then along comes President Obama, who has a different governing style, but is racking up progressive achievement, reversing many of the bad policies of his predecessors.

He revitalized the NLRB, resulting in major victories, and paved the way for the largest federal union organizing effort in history.

It's apparently easy to ignore what the President says and spin opinions that sound good.

After all, it seems that FDR is the President held up most often to counter Obama's liberal credentials.

If one's primary complaint against the health care bill is that it lacks a public option or similar price control, that is something that can be addressed. It's still a huge progressive achievement.

As it stands, President Obama's health plan not only included catastrophic care coverage (picked up for Kerry's 2004 plan), but it also extend free preventive health care to seniors, expanded funding for community health centers, established a funded path to get to single payer and changed the MLR. List of provisions.

[timtom]

1. Which certainly accounts for

why we're still in Iraq/Afghanistan after all this time...

Spreading the democratic process to the unwashed.

[ProSense]

3. Hmmm?

What's your point? Clinton bomb Kosovo, Truman went to war with Korea. FDR imprisoned Japanese Americans.

The withdrawal from Iraq is proceeding on pace. Withdrawal from Afganistan is now in process.

Still, what does that have to do the the point that President Obama is the most progressive President in decades?

[TheWraith]

Facts? We don't need no stinking facts.

All we need to do is point at some random thing which dissatisfies us today. Even if we have to make it up, like the imaginary war in Yemen.

[TheWraith]

124. Facts? We don't need no stinking facts.

All we need to do is point at some random thing which dissatisfies us today. Even if we have to make it up, like the imaginary war in Yemen.

[zipplewrath]

128. Whole argument is absurd from the ground up

We've had what 2 democratic presidents since 1982 or so? So that's "decades". That alone means the comparison is between him and Clinton. Clinton was anything but a "progressive" president. So the comparison is absurd. Extending to include Carter means you're talking about a one termer that also never really presented himself as much of a "progressive". At that point you have to go back to LBJ, a president the party threw out of office. Heck of a basis of comparison. It's a bit like saying that you're the richest person at the homeless shelter.

And as you point out, you can go all the way back to FDR (anyone before that wouldn't even be in the modern democratic party. FDR virtually realigned the democrats, which began the split with the southern dixiecrats) and you won't find much of a pacifist at all. You can look at virtually every president we've ever had from both parties and you won't a true pacifist amongst them.

Bottom line is that we've had presidents that served progressive issues better (some of them were republicans), but none of them were "pure" or consistent across the spectrum of issues. LBJ has beat Obama hands down, and all it cost was a huge pointless war. Not sure that was such a hot trade. God knows the progressives at the time didn't think so.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

5. Hey

got an intelligent rebuttal to this:

He revitalized the NLRB, resulting in major victories, and paved the way for the largest federal union organizing effort in history.

[MannyGoldstein]

10. I guess Trumka is just ignorant or ungrateful

http://www.thenation.com/blog/161208/afls-trumka-pols-selling-out-workers-ive-had-snootful-st

“For too long, we’ve been left after Election Day holding a canceled check, waving it about—‘Remember us? Remember us? Remember us?’—asking someone to pay a little attention to us,” recalled (AFL-CIO President) Trumka, who like many union leaders was frustrated with the failure of the Obama administration and Democrats in Congress to pass the Employee Free Choice Act and other needed labor law reforms. “Well, I don’t know about you, but I’ve had a snootful of that shit!”

[ProSense]

13. I guess

you missed the change that the RW is now attacking.

[MannyGoldstein]

16. The right are also attacking evolution, fluorescent light bulbs, and earthquake monitoring

Assuming Obama is just trying to mollify the fringe right rather than actually subscribing to their agenda, he's wasted his energy - they are insane, he might as well have tried to actually fix this country and he'd gotten the same opposition.

[ProSense]

17. And

"The right are also attacking evolution, fluorescent light bulbs, and earthquake monitoring"

...the President's new union rule.

[dennis4868]

107. dude!

you are in DU...facts regarding Obama means NOTHING...they mean less than shit on a piece of toilet paper...don't watse your time here.

[Kolesar]

6. worked really hard on that one didn't you, Mr. Chair Occupant? eom

[ProSense]

7. Wait

it's going to get interesting.

This claim seems to do it: Obama is the most progressive President in decades.

Because you know everyone can point to something about Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, that makes them more progressive, even if it's a "stare." <<<<<sarcasm.

[shellgame26]

50. +1

so true. K&R

[BklnDem75]

23. I doubt too much effort was put into that

Looks like a copy and paste smiley job

[Donnachaidh]

39. [phone] n/t

[Hart2008]

45. [phone] NT

[ProSense]

47. "[phone] " doesn't

make Nixon a liberal. Still selling that?

[Kolesar]

4. My partly disabled brother will finally be able to get health care coverage

His $13,000/year pay does not extend very far.

[zipplewrath]

129. Actually, he'll get insurance

you might be surprise how little CARE he'll be able to afford on $13K a year.

[n2doc]

8. You mean he is more progressive than Clinton.

Because we haven't had any other Democratic Presidents in decades.

At least Clinton raised taxes on the rich.

[polmaven]

15. Umm...

The 60s and 70s weren't "decades" ago? :shrug:

[n2doc]

20. If you want to say Obama is more progressive than LBJ, you are a nut n/t

[polmaven]

40. President Obama would, I'm quite sure,

welcome having the same numbers in Congress which LBJ enjoyed. If he had those numbers he would not be limited in the progressive legislation he could enact. When a president is left with a Senate that will not allow the legislation to reach his desk, it becomes a matter of compromise of pass nothing. This president realizes that he must work with what he has.

Before you try to say that we had control of Congress for 2 years, well, yes...sort of. Speaker Pelosi's House passed a lot of very progressive legislation, which died in the Senate, never reaching the president's desk. With the same Senate, even a "President Sanders" would not be able to sign progressive bills. The "bully pulpit" does not work when the opposition has already stated that, even before the good of the country, the number one priority is to see to it that this is a one term president.

LBJ Congress:

House: Democrats - 295 Republicans - 140


Senate: Democrats - 67 Republicans - 33


President Obama has not had a filibuster proof Senate but for 49 days - and even then, it was when Senator Kennedy was not too sick to be there, so effectively, there has not been a single day of a filibuster proof Senate.

I am what might be called a realist...not a "nut", thank you very much.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mikekohr]

62. Great Post! Facts are stubborn things.

Remember the dissatisfaction among many of our allies and friends over whether Al Gore was "progressive" enough, and the Nader option? How'd that work out?

[OHdem10]

9. Until we are able to even idetify a Progressive from a Conservative

Democrat, we will be in trouble.

President Clinton has never hidden the fact that
he is a Conservative Democrat. I can remember
he explained this way way back eons ago when
speaking to an all Liberal Group on C-Span.

Obama is a New Democrat and has told us this
early on.

Trying to tell us they are Progressive just makes
our hair stand on end.

It is better just to explain what they have done
and do not lable them.

Right now Obama's problem has nothing to do with
Progressiveness. He is losing that most important
quality---Leadership. If someone is seen as a
weak leader, they cannot win a second term.

This is painful for me, but we had better get
a grip on reality and face facts.

[Exultant Democracy]

18. very well said.

[ProSense]

21. Don't agree

Obama is a New Democrat and has told us this
early on.

Trying to tell us they are Progressive just makes
our hair stand on end.

It is better just to explain what they have done
and do not lable them.

Right now Obama's problem has nothing to do with
Progressiveness. He is losing that most important
quality---Leadership. If someone is seen as a
weak leader, they cannot win a second term.

"Obama is a New Democrat and has told us this early on."

What does that mean? Would Evan Bayh support the policies in the OP? No. Would third way? Have you read a real New Democrats' position? See Claire McCaskill.

"Right now Obama's problem has nothing to do with
Progressiveness. He is losing that most important
quality---Leadership. "

Right now the President is being subjected to spin. The fact is that he couldn't accomplish the things he has if he wasn't a leader. When he decided to support the no-fly zone over Libya (which even Senator Sanders expressed support for), he was accused of acting like a dictator.

The noise and constant attacks on the President's character do not mesh with the reality the majority of people see.

[alsame]

32. Right. It's just an uncanny coincidence that most of the

cabinet, staff and advisors are Third Way/DLC/NDC/BlueDog or other assorted ConservaDems. :eyes:

[Pab Sungenis]

11. Considering that the other Presidents in decades

were two Bushes, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Ford, and Nixon that is not saying much.

[ProSense]

14. Yet

Considering that the other Presidents in decades were two Bushes, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Ford, and Nixon that is not saying much.



...the statement causes such consternation. The Presidents achievements speak for themselves.

[Pab Sungenis]

22. Yes, they do.

Carter pretty much did nothing. He was a placeholder. The only good thing he did was an emphasis on human rights in foreign policy, everything else was just damage control.

Clinton destroyed financial regulation, ended (excuse me, "reformed") welfare, signed NAFTA, enshrined bigotry into law in the form of DADT and DOMA. The only thing that kept him from being in the same league as Bush II in rightward tilt was his tax and economic policies and that he didn't go start unnecessary wars.

We haven't had a progressive President since LBJ and he had his own baggage. Before that we have to go back to Roosevelt and before that the other Roosevelt (or maybe Wilson).

[polmaven]

73. As far as President Clinton

"enshrined bigotry into law in the form of DADT and DOMA." I assume you preferred the military prior to DADT, when other troops could make accusations without any proof, and those men were simply given dishonorable discharge for "conduct unbecoming", and you would have preferred a Constitutional Amendment to enshrine marriage as between 1 man and one woman. That is what DADT and DOMA addressed. It was a very different time.

[fasttense]

12. I can finally get my 2, very healthy college kids on my health insurance for $24,000 a year.n/t

[Carolina]

35. I am truly happy for you

and that is a plus of the Affordable Care Act, but otherwise it is still a give away to insurers and big pharma. Hope your kids health remains good and that they have good jobs with benefits when they're 27.

It came too late for me and my son or my sister and her kids, one of whom is now employed but cannot afford health insurance. Moreover, the Act intended for more people to be eligible for Medicaid but as one hand giveth, the other taketh away since Medicaid is on the budget slashing agenda of Obama and the Congress.

[JoePhilly]

82. My sister's 15 year old daughter, who had cancer at 2 ... now gets

very affordable coverage.

Between the ages of 2 and the passage of that legislation, the best insurance they could get for her covered colds, and sports injuries, and nothing else.

[ChiciB1]

156. $24,000 A Year??? That's More Than I Make In A Year! I'm Glad You

find this such a bargain. What I could do if I made enough money to afford insurance that cost that much!

WOW, that's a FORTUNE to me! Really, I'm NOT kidding! I know quite a few people who have opted out of ANY health insurance because it cost them $3,200.00 a year.

$24,000.00??? WOW!

[Enrique]

19. with that kind of reasoning, you could make Poppy Bush look progressive

if you only look at one side of the coin.

[ProSense]

24. Hmmm?

"with that kind of reasoning, you could make Poppy Bush look progressive"

Maybe you could. Go ahead, start a thread and enlighten us about your views on how Bush could look progressive. Maybe use the Nixon claims as a template.

[Enrique]

25. Nixon too

even Bush Jr. The list technique can work wonders.

[ProSense]

27. Well

"even Bush Jr. The list technique can work wonders."

...don't just keep repeating this, show us a "list" of Bush's progressive policies.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

33. Hmmm?

"But if I were a propagandist tasked with making that bogus argument, I could do it."

What in the OP is "propaganda"? Are you saying the President didn't do those things, or are you saying they are not progressive achievement?

Still, give us an example of your skills. Don't just talk crap. Show us how you could make Bush look progressive!

[GillesDeleuze]

42. ill give it a try

-Clear Sky Initiative
-As a share of GDP, Bush II over saw the largest domestic spending increase
-Signed McCain-Feingold
-Worked with Sen. Kennedy on NCLB
-encouraged middle class asset-building via "American Dream"
-Sarbanes Oxley act to reform corrupt accounting practices
-Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: $286 billion in public works/infrastructure
-Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007
-Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008
-Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act
-Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008
-Supplemental Appropriations Act of 2008
-Economic Stimulus Act of 2008

Thats a decent list of policies President Bush the Lesser signed into law. Sure they aren't perfect, but its impressive when you put blinders on and thats all you can see.

I think ive made my point.

[ProSense]

44. Thanks. It's

-Signed McCain-Feingold (appointed Roberts and Alito)

-Worked with Sen. Kennedy on NCLB (underfunded it and allowed it to become a profit-making policy for Neil Bush and others)

-Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 (tried to circumvent, but the courts intervened. Obama established the most progressive policies to date, including the first-ever for http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=741435&mesg_id=741435">heavy trucks

-Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act (finally http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=629066&mesg_id=629066">established under Obama)

....kind of like a Democratic Congress pushing Nixon to enact policies, and him working to undermine them.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Enrique]

77. congratulations

you have proven Bush is the most progressive president in history!

Now keep posting that list over and over again to really have full effect. ;-)

:thumbsup:

[ProSense]

80. Thanks

"you have proven Bush is the most progressive president in history!"

...for demonstrating your of skills. It's not the list that makes the President, it's his actions.

Demonizing a list of accomplishments back up by actions to prove that "progressive" could apply to Bush isn't very logical.

In fact, it's fairly ludicrous.

[Jakes Progress]

131. Whoa, buddy.

You don't really want to make actions important, do you?

No the term progressive could not apply to bush. But by the same standards, it does not apply to Obama either.

[JNinWB]

66. But that would require research, evidence and maybe some links

It's so much more effective to just direct unsupported accusations at Obama.

There are rational thinkers who require supporting data and the irrational accusers who believe that we care about their "opinions".

[shayes51]

26. It's easy to ignore what he says because

he hasn't done a very good job of saying it.
President Obama has not really connected with the American people since the election, and that is a real shame.

[ProSense]

29. What's

President Obama has not really connected with the American people since the election, and that is a real shame.

...the evidence? There is a lot of media/online spin. This President is polling consistently higher than most Presidents during their term. He has never dropped to the 30s like Presidents who supposedly connected with people: Clinton and Reagan.

He still has it, he was able to issue a call to action that crashed the Congressional servers.

[mtnsnake]

28. How about his war policy? Where is the progress there? Where is the change?

[ProSense]

31. Three words:

Korea. Vietnam. Kosovo.

Now, for a President who inherited two wars, how does his policies, ending the war in Iraq, proceeding with a withdrawal from Afghnistan, the Libya no-fly zone (which many initially supported as a humanitarian mission), counter the point made in the OP?

Here's another policy to counter past failures

[Carolina]

34. Yeah

His public option is soooo wonderful
His Deficit Commission really got those bankers, corporations and war profiteers
His jobs program is amazing
His support of unions is astounding
His economic team is stocked with populists, who knew
He truly is the working man's best bud

[ProSense]

36. Hmmmm?

"His public option is soooo wonderful"

If one's primary complaint against the health care bill is that it lacks a public option or similar price control, that is something that can be addressed. It's still a huge progressive achievement.)

As it stands, President Obama's health plan not only included catastrophic care coverage (picked up for Kerry's 2004 plan), but it also extend free preventive health care to seniors, expanded funding for community health centers, established a funded path to get to single payer and changed the MLR. List of provisions.


"His Deficit Commission really got those bankers, corporations and war profiteers"

The Deficit Commission has nothing to do with policies aimed at banks. That would be this


"His jobs program is amazing"

Inherited the worst economic crisis since the depression. the economy is stagnant, it is not slipping backward (despite the Republicans attempt to blow up the U.S. economy).





source


"His support of unions is astounding"

He revitalized the NLRB, resulting in major victories, and paved the way for the largest federal union organizing effort in history.


"His economic team is stocked with populists, who knew"

Policies, not people, are the proof of the pudding.


"He truly is the working man's best bud"

From establishing the CFPB, ensuring that millions of uninsured Americans will get coverage, saving seniors money, implementing life saving environmental policies, he could be worse!

The President is trying to make improvements to the quality of people's lives, despite the odds.

[Cali_Democrat]

37. Hmmm?

:smoke:

[ProSense]

38. Hmmmm?

Good one!

[Stoic]

43. The last three decades. He's also the most martian.

Although Ronald Reagan might be edging him out on the former.

[RandomKoolzip]

48. That says something more about how bad the decades have been

than about how good the president has been.

[Jakes Progress]

49. Obama is a centrist, third-way, reagan democrat.

Shall I list all the things that point to that conclusion?

You can argue history and titles and names all you want. We have not been well-served by this administration and congress. Many of the things that people call progressive now would have been thought of as right wing thirty years ago. Obama is just the latest to help sell-out of the American dream.

Play your games if you like. We know what we have in the WH. We know what is progressive and what isn't.

But I understand when some people are so much better off than others that they have to yell how good things are, and how much progress has been made. It eases their conscience that they are doing well while so many are leading desperate lives, without hope of a better one. They know that the well-off will be taken care of and that they have no voice. They aren't bankers or corporations. They don't have millions of dollars to pay lobbyists and buy politicians. They know better. I think you do too.

[ProSense]

52. Ah

"Obama is a centrist, third-way, reagan democrat."

Obama is not Clinton. Have you read a real Third Way Democrat supports? See Claire McCaskill.

Would an Evan Bayh support the policies in the OP? No.

"Play your games if you like. We know what we have in the WH. We know what is progressive and what isn't."

Acknowledging the President's achievenments is not a "game." Ignoring them is.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jakes Progress]

130. Obama is

Clinton fulfilled. He is the culmination of the third way, win-at-any-cost, pander to money, new democrat movement.

A batch of pr dept. releases don't a progressive make. Show me where Obama asked for a better health bill. Show me where he sent a proposal to congress that included language that would require a public option, something he vowed he would fight for.

Show me how the president helped the unions in Wisconsin. Show me the time that Obama ordered his point guard buddy to stop bashing and crashing teacher unions.

A progressive would have stood by his vow to veto any bill without a public option. (And a smart progressive would have made it possible.) A progressive would have defended the workers in Wisconsin, and a progressive would definitely fired an advisor that consistently trashed teacher unions in speech and policy. A progressive would have ended the bush tax cuts for the wealthy.

The party can continue to ignore the anger and disillusionment of those who put him in office. They can write them off as stupid or uninformed. They are not stupid, and they are, to the party's dismay, uninformed. They will not be blinded by public relation office tricks.

So trash DUers who have become disillusioned with the president. Write them off. It would appear that the party has decided that actually doing progressive things will cost them donor money from the corporations that their actions aid.

[Little Star]

138. Good summation Jakes! They can continue to ignore the anger &

disillusionment at their own risk.

[Pisces]

51. Pro, I love your tenacity for facts and actual links to prove your point, but

there are a bunch of naysayers on this board that don't want facts or the truth. They prefer their conspiracy theories that Obama is a secret Repub ( Tea Party think he's a secret Kenyan) funny how the
purists are on the fringe of reality.

Keep up the good work you give me hope and motivation that some of the truth will seep in.

[GillesDeleuze]

54. or hes a run of the mill corporate dem. no secret agenda. no conspiracy.

or maybe he just hasn't found those comfortable shoes i kept hearing about

[CakeGrrl]

64. It's true; truth and facts are largely ingored in favor of

continuing to bash the President.

On the other hand, this could trigger another 'blue link'/'list' outburst.

:rofl:

[Number23]

115. Yep. She's a pit bull with the facts and has the patience of Job

No wonder so many here will say just about anything to discredit her.

[WiffenPoof]

150. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

That is some funny stuff, my friend.

-P

[Armstead]

55. Possibly -- But that's a very low bar that is meaningless

[ProSense]

57. Yeah,

"Possibly -- But that's a very low bar that is meaningless"

...being the most progressive President in decades is "meaningless." He was supposed to be the most progressive ever?

The arguments go from he's to the right of Nixon to being the most progressive in decades is "meaningless"?

Absurd!

[Armstead]

67. It's like saying I'm the tallest person in a room of ants

[ProSense]

74. Maybe

"It's like saying I'm the tallest person in a room of ants"

...the OP should have been titled: The previous Presidents were "ants" compared to Obama.

[Armstead]

79. That might make sense, actually

[great white snark]

56. Yes he is and you have the facts to back it up.

Amazing what needs to be defended on a Democratic forum.

Obama/Biden 2012!

[bvar22]

58. That says more about the sad state of our country...

...than it says about President Obama.

But I think, after all is said and done, that the DLC Centrist Bill Clinton
will have a more progressive record than Obama,
but that debate would be as idiotic as having a "Who is the Slowest" mock footrace.


It freaks me out to look back and realize that old Iron Assed LBJ was the Most Liberal President in over a half-century.

Sad.


---bvar22
a Mainstream Center FDR/LBJ DEMOCRAT



Who will STAND and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?
You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ProSense]

59. Speaking

"But I think, after all is said and done, that the DLC Centrist Bill Clinton
will have a more progressive record than Obama"

...of "sad."

Yeah, including repealing Glass-Steagall, signing the Enron loophole, DADT, DOMA and NAFTA into law.

Shows the level of absurdity.

[bvar22]

68. Obama is not finished yet.

Wait until the MANDATE explodes in 2014,
and MILLIONS (40Million? 70Million?) are forced to BUY Junk Insurance they can't afford to use.
They WILL blame Obama, and worse the Democratic Party, for a generation.


I'll wait until Obama is done,
and then decide who WON the "I'm the Slowest" mock foot race, Obama or Clinton.


And "talk about sad",
you didn't even try to contest my statement that LBJ was the Most Liberal President of the last half century.

Also "sad" that you would attempt to make Obama appear more palatable by tearing down another Democratic President.

Hertz, Donut?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ProSense]

69. Oh

"Obama is not finished yet.

Wait until the MANDATE explodes in 2014,
and MILLIONS (40Million? 70Million?) are forced to BUY Junk Insurance they can't afford to use.
They WILL blame Obama, and worse the Democratic Party, for a generation."

...your assessment was based not on Clinton's record compared to Obama's, but on the speculation that people will hate him for health care reform?

That's deep!

[dflprincess]

125. Health care reform?

His buddy Rahm bragged that they had managed "to keep the private delivery system in place". That is not reform.

Reform would have been a bill that guaranteed Americans access to care instead we got a mandate to buy the same old crap from the same old crooks. We need health care, we got health insurance that more and more of us can't afford to use. Pardon me all to hell if I'm not grateful for that.

[Bake]

60. Nobody gives two shits about any of that.

All people care about is JOBS. Obama has done nothing for JOBS, which should have been his focus like a laser beam from Day One. Healthcare "reform" actually reformed NOTHING. I still can't afford to go to the doctor, and I HAVE health insurance, crappy though it is.

JOBS JOBS JOBS.

Where was Obama? MIA.

Obama blew it.

Bake

[ProSense]

61. Oh, but

...the "Repug white knight" Perry is on the way to save us!

People do give "two shits" about supporting unions and expanding access to health care.

[Bake]

63. That's the thing. We DIDN'T expand access to health care.

What we got was a watered down way for insurance companies to make even more money.

I support unions! I AM A UNION MEMBER. Where was Obama during the Wisconsin uproar? MIA. MISSING IN ACTION. Looking for his "comfortable shoes," apparently.

Bake

[ProSense]

70. Let's see

"I support unions! I AM A UNION MEMBER. Where was Obama during the Wisconsin uproar? MIA. MISSING IN ACTION. Looking for his 'comfortable shoes,' apparently."

...nonsense versus making it easier for employees to unionize? Hmmm?

[Ignis]

83. Are you a union member?

Bake is. I'm a former one. How about yourself?

[ProSense]

84. Why

do I have to be a union member to believe that "Repug white knight" Perry is going to win?

[Ignis]

86. Sorry, was that a "yes" or a "no" answer?

[ProSense]

98. No

it was a non-answer to an irrelevant question.

Clear?

[Ignis]

103. So you're not a union member, then?

[Ignis]

112. I don't understand why this is such a difficult question to answer.

Every union member I know is quite proud to be one.

:shrug:

[BklnDem75]

93. I am

Do you have a point?

[Ignis]

94. Of course I do. That's why I wear a hat.

[BklnDem75]

97. Is it a special hat that allows us to disregard non-union people?

[Ignis]

102. Not a fan of humor, eh? Fair enough.

I don't disregard any people, union or non-union.

If you're asking if I might disregard the opinions of non-union members, the answer is still no.

Do I give the opinions of non-union members the less weight that I do the opinion of current/past union members when discussing the labor struggle in the US? Not consciously, but I do find it helpful to understand the context in which opinions are offered--especially when those opinions paint a rosy picture regarding the state of labor in the US today.

Any other questions?

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

89. You should ask the guy who ran for Prez on the 2008 (D) party platform.

That would be the platform that includes this lovely little bit of text:

Covering All Americans and Providing Real Choices of Affordable Health Insurance Options.

Families and individuals should have the option of keeping the coverage they have or choosing from a wide array of health insurance plans, including many private health insurance options and a public plan. Coverage should be made affordable for all Americans with subsidies provided through tax credits and other means.

-- http://www.democrats.org/about/party_platform

So perhaps you can tell us why the fuck Mr. Obama ran for president on our party's platform, when he had no idea how to implement the planks contained therein.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

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[Dad Infinitum]

65. Obama is the most right wing Democratic president in history

Cant have it both ways.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

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[DevonRex]

92. So, I guess you're a dad...

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

134. now is a dead

[BklnDem75]

100. I thought it was Clinton?

Whew! I'm getting dizzy!

[Jakes Progress]

132. Same thing.

[inchhigh]

71. Wha??

OK, Maybe in A decade, but even then its close.................

[ProSense]

72. Huh?

Wha?

Sheesh!

"OK, Maybe in A decade, but even then its close."

Obama is teh Bush 3!!!!

[Fuddnik]

75. If that were true, you wouldn't have to tell us about it continually.

We'd kind of know it instinctively.

[CakeGrrl]

78. You mean, like some of you 'instinctively' know

the Tea Party will definitely back down in a game of chicken over the economy, or that they'll see reason if you propose no taxes on the middle class while taxing the rich.

Oh, and let's not forget the people who can't seem to remember how many times (i.e. EVERY TIME HE'S BEEN ON TV RECENTLY) the President has said we need the rich to pay their fair share by letting the Bush tax cuts expire.

Those are some crackerjack instincts at work there. Yep.

[BklnDem75]

81. So the constant threads claiming Obama's a conservative...

should be rightfully laughed at. It's posted in this forum more often than any attacks against actual conservatives.

[Enrique]

85. good point

they doth protest too much. :thumbsup:

[great white snark]

99. Better point just above yours.

Thou doth outrage too much.

[GOPBasher]

87. You make good points, but I'm not sure it's a fair comparison.

Obama came to power with 59/60 senators (at various points in his first two years), a huge majority in the House, an opposition party about as popular as Casey Anthony in Chuck-E-Cheese, and overwhelming momentum and political capital that allowed him to pursue a progressive policy platform. No one else had that. Yes, he did a lot, but given the situation, I still think he could/should have done more in those first two years. Now, I'll give him good marks on health care. I wish more would have been done, but that part is not his fault; he couldn't get 60 senators for a public option (or Medicare buy-in, which is what I wanted). So, I give him a pass on that, not his fault. However, he didn't even TRY to repeal any part of the Bush tax cuts, and that really needed to be done then before the 2010 elections. He didn't even mention the Dream Act. Also, part of the stimulus should have consisted of federal money to build the infrastructure to move toward alternative liquid fuels or battery technology for cars. Also, he should have fixed the long-term budget at that time, when the GOP had no power. Why wait until they have power again? That was stupid. If he did the things I just mentioned, the economy would be on its way toward recovery, we would not have had this economically-damaging debt ceiling fight, and his approval rating would probably be 60%+.

Overall, I give him about a B- on his presidency. It's pretty good, but I wish I could say great.

At any rate, I do agree with the main thesis of your op. Funnily enough, the last president who was as progressive as he is was not a Democrat but the Republican Nixon.

[RBInMaine]

88. SPOT ON CORRECT, and NO ONE more progressive will EVER be elected. Ever ! Just YouTube Maddow's

list of Obama's accomplishments. Not perfect purity, and a HUGE list of pretty damn progressive accomplishments.

[Ignis]

95. We do not all share your pessimism.

[Honeycombe8]

127. I don't think that statement is pessimism. Most people in the country are not progressive.

All polls that I'm aware of support that. A lot of people agree with some progressive stances in certain things, but across the board, would not be called progressive. It's also true that most people in the country are not far right/tea partier types. It would be hard for either the far left or the far right to win a Presidential election.

Most candidates who win the Presidency have certain characteristics. Being moderate is one of them. Being taller than the other candidate is another. It's the image of a leader that most people have.

But if either a far right or a far left were to be elected, it's more likely that a far right candidate would be elected, IMO. That's because the far left would be spending more money, more taxpayer money, and that would have a direct impact on the public. Although they might dislike a far righter, it would be harder for the average citizen to see how their policies would directly adversely impact him. He could take the attitude of...well, I don't belong to that group, or that group, so it doesn't really affect me that much. The more involved issues...the average citizen doesn't follow the issues or the news that closely to be well informed. It's the huff and puff and the obvious that catches their attention.

But it's the moderate who wins, time and again. Or at least perceived to be a moderate. That's why junior Bush campaigned as a "compassionate conservative" (which was a lie), that he "works across the aisle" (which was a lie). He knew that in order to win, he had to appear moderate and reasonable. He had been my governor, so I knew he was lying. But most people don't follow the facts that closely. The Dems did a horrible job of pointing out the facts to the public, so the public bought the fiction.

[TheKentuckian]

135. When was this? 1976? Reagan was no moderate. Bush41 moderate in temper but not in policy?

Junior Bush was a complete ideologue down to the theocracy.

The only "moderate" was Clinton and he was savaged as some murdering counter culture freak and the most liberal candidate evah just like Obama. He also got less than 45% of the vote and only a bit better the second time around.

Most importantly, moderate no longer has a functional political definition. The constant pursuit of something no one can describe in policy terms is silly. It is well beyond putting the cart before the horse.

The fierce urgency of ordering a medium soda regardless of the size or the relative sizes of the small and the large. As long as it can be called medium then the size is just right.

[alsame]

137. Great post. nt

[politicasista]

91. Kick

Trying to be more positive than negative. :kick: :patriot:

[BackToThe60s]

101. I don't disagree

But I'm wondering where the line is between "he's constrained by the nutjob Republicans" and "maybe he's not as into this as we thought."

K&R, though.

[John Agar]

105. If you compare to the Bushes, sure.

I'm not sure he is any more "progressive" than Clinton, or Carter, however.

What are the yardsticks?

Clinton and Carter never proposed raising the age of Medicare eligibility, but the president apparently did (it's been widely reported, and has not been denied to my knowledge).

Of course, comparisons across decades are hard to quantify, and it seems that you didn't even try here.

I end up concluding that the OP this is some sort of gesture, directed to an ongoing "debate" which I know and care very little about.

[ProSense]

106. Really?

"I'm not sure he is any more "progressive" than Clinton, or Carter, however.

What are the yardsticks?"

Clinton signed DOMA, DADT and NAFTA, repealed Glass-Steagall and enacted the Enron loophole, pretty much rounding out the de-regulation started by Carter.

Airline Deregulation Act

Jimmy Carter on deregulation, health care

<...>

JIMMY CARTER: I would say that the most seminal change that affected the future was what you just mentioned, and that was deregulation. I was very much against government intrusion in private affairs, and so I thought that the airlines and the railroads and the banks all should be regulated. And they were while I was in office. It was a tremendous change.

RYSSDAL: Did it ever occur to you that part of the reason that this economy is in the state it's in -- that we've had the financial crisis and corporations with huge profits at the expense of workers and sometimes consumers -- is because you started this drive for deregulation that continued through Republican and Democratic administrations?

CARTER: No, that's not true. The elements that have resulted in the latest breakdown were done under a later president, I won't call his name. We kept tight control over the banking and finance committee. There was a constant monitoring of the loans to people. And in getting those loans and then selling those mortgages to other people, and indeed they would be resold again -- all of that was prohibited when I went out of office.

<...>

It's the Deregulation, Stupid

Then along came President Obama

[John Agar]

111. Really.

The Medicare proposal is at least as bad as anything associated with Clinton.

Besides, Obama fiddled for a good long while before touching DADT, and even longer with DOMA.

PS: What is the deal with the blue links?

[ProSense]

113. Um

"The Medicare proposal is at least as bad as anything associated with Clinton."

...what Medicare proposal?

"Besides, Obama fiddled for a good long while before touching DADT, and even longer with DOMA."

I'd say fiddling to fix the mess is not equal to creating it, you?

[John Agar]

119. He's pushing for new NAFTA-like legislation right now.

The Panama deal looks especially bad.

Here's a link, but I'm not a professional, so it looks like this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/09/panama-trade-deal_n_922398.html?ref=fb&src=sp

I'm more concerned with getting it right NOW than I am in re-fighting debates from the 1990s.

Besides, I thought the resident d=ran on changing and improving the old NAFTA deals, not expanding on them.

[ProSense]

121. No,

he's pushing more trade deals. The claim that they're NAFTA, doesn't make them so. From your link:

<...>

The deal with Panama was first negotiated by President George W. Bush in 2007, but in April, Obama met with Panama President Ricardo Martinelli to announce the signing of a new information sharing agreement as part of the broader deal to help facilitate tax enforcement.

"Thanks to the leadership of President Martinelli, there have been a range of significant reforms in banking and taxation in Panama," Obama said. "And we are confident now that a free trade agreement would be good for our country, would create jobs here in the United States."

But the tax enforcement agreement amounts to little more than a gesture, relying on a decades out-of-date framework that is not very effective at recovering lost tax revenue. Thanks to the TIEA, American tax officials can now obtain tax information on U.S. citizens stashing money in Panama. That's great -- if they already know which citizens are using Panama-based schemes to dodge U.S. taxes. But, of course, the IRS doesn't actually know who is doing this -- if it did, it wouldn't need to gather bank account information in the first place.

<...>

This is President Obama fixing a trade agreement negotiated by Bush.

Still, repealing Glass-Steagall and signing the Enron loophole (the primary drivers of the economic crisis) tops everything.

[John Agar]

126. It's a bill that is full of holes.

Much better jobs legislation is coming out of the House right now.

Why doesn't the president embrace these DEMOCRATIC ideas?

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

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[ProSense]

109. Hey,

"Hey, but thanks for all of the blue links...and all the fish. So long..."

...thanks for stopping by!

[Number23]

114. I can't tell what's the most terrifying boogedy-man on DU

The DLC (even though I hear it's been dead for some time), this mysterious "Third Way" that only the very special here seem to keep talking about, or Prosense's blue links.

Hmmmm.... maybe I should do a poll...

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

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[jefferson_dem]

110. irrefutable

[Vinnie From Indy]

117. And, he is a mime, an Octagon fighter and he can juggle chainsaws

See how easy that is?

What I find routinely funny about your posts is that more times than not your "linkies" do NOT support your arguments or they flat out disagree with your offerings. You post this stuff and hope nobody ever actually clicks the links.

At the end of the day, most DU'ers are well enough informed to spot the propaganda and BS that you peddle incesssantly.

Cheers!

[Fuddnik]

120. You forgot to mention his 11 hole-in-ones the first time he played golf.

[Jakes Progress]

133. Of course. But then those things are easy for gods.

[FSogol]

118. K & R. Well said.

Keep up the good work, Prosense.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

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[inna]

136. lol, Obama himself would protest such a characterization

funny post though, thanks!

:spray:

[ProSense]

139. Of all

the posts to kick, wish it had been this one or this one.

I like this one too, but the those are current issues.

[NorthCarolina]

140. No wonder the priorities in this country are so fucked up. nt

[ProSense]

142. The country

is "fucked up" because, unlike the President, there are people who spend a lot of time and money trearing shit down.

[Dr Fate]

154. RWers ARE NOT using the tax cuts Obama gave them to tear down our country. Take that back!!!.

I agree that there a lot of people who are spending money trying to trear shit down.

HOWEVER- I think it is important to note that this money DID NOT come from the tax cuts Obama and centrist DEMS extended to the wealthy.

I believe you are talking about the professional left who is spending money to tear shit down- NOT conservatives & corportions who were awarded tax cut extensions by Obama and Democrats.

Obama would have never given tax cuts to them if they were going to use the money to tear shit down- he's no fool.

[Dr Fate]

141. I tell people I'm a progressive and no one believes me either.

I'm starting to see how Obama must feel.

[MissDeeds]

143. Best laugh I've had all day

Obama is a progressive..That's a good one!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ProSense]

144. So

revitalizing the NLRB and strengthening unions is funny?

OK!

[MissDeeds]

145. "Strengthening unions"?

Stop! Stop! You're killing me!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ProSense]

146. No,

I think you're doing a fine job of that on your own.

Strengthening...

NLRB Rule: A Positive Step forward for all Workers

NLRB Orders Reinstatement Of Santa Barbara News-Press Journalists

Board Orders a Repeat of a California Union Election

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

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[Dr Fate]

153. Read Prosense's links. It proves that Unions are stronger under Obama than in decades.

Read the FACTS about how Unions are now stronger under Obama than ever b/f you laugh.

[ProSense]

155. Here's a good read:

NEA delegates vote to support President Barack Obama in re-election bid

[Dr Fate]

157. Thanks. More proof that Unions are stronger under Obama than in decades.

I am printing this out and showing this to swing-liberals I know at work, BTW.

[quaker bill]

148. You are correct, thanks

[Fearless]

149. Single payer??? Oh my, that made my night.

You have to fight for something to make it happen. He isn't. It won't. End of story.

[LetTimmySmoke]

151. You forgot about the debt ceiling deal that ended big oil subsidies.

[Dr Fate]

152. Any family who cannot SEE and FEEL all the awesome things that are happening to them must be fools.

Families should not even need to read your list to know about all the awesome things that are happening to them as we speak.

I realize this is just to set the far left DUers straight- fortunately voting families and swing voters in general probably already know how great they have it. The midterms prove that as well.