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boxman15 Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 11:55 PM
Original message
President Obama and the National Defense Authorization Act
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 11:55 PM by boxman15
As a big supporter of the president, is anyone else worried as to the reason President Obama has threatened a veto of this atrocious bill, supported by 93% of the Senate?

This is kind of sad/embarrassing to admit, but I just saw the reasoning behind the administration's threat on the Daily Show. I always knew he was threatening a veto, but I always assumed that it was because this bill is obviously unconstitutional and downright scary. After doing some research to make sure it wasn't just taken out of context, I was surprised and saddened to see that the president has threatened a veto because it complicates civilian intelligence gathering too much, not because of the obvious implications of a president being able to unilaterally lock up Americans with no actual evidence and no trial. This is disturbing, if true.

If I'm wrong, please set me straight. But, this bill scares the living shit out of me. I know the Obama administration wouldn't lock up Americans at will, but imagine a Gingrich or a Perry White House. This undermines the foundation of this nation, and President Obama should be against it not because it is too bureaucratic, but because it is un-American and downright disturbing. Thoughts/corrections?

Sorry if this thread is a little ranty or unclear, but I just needed to let off some steam.
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. it's not true...
There are a few reasons Obama is against the bill...one of which is the indefinite detentions language.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/02/white-house-veto-indefinite-detention_n_1126399.html

"It (the White House) also contended that rather than clarifying the rules, the bill was adding uncertainty to the difficult legal landscape around detentions."

Jon Stewart cherry picked here to get a comedy bit for the night but it didn't tell the entire story.
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boxman15 Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I haven't seen anything yet that says he is against it because of its un-American provisions
It's all about how it gives too much power to the presidency. Too much micromanagement. There's nothing about how it's wrong that the executive branch should have authority like this. It's basically that "That would be too tough to do." And I expect more out of the president. He's smarter and better than that.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong. I really hope I am.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Here you go
From the New York Times editorial page (paper's own editorial) on November 30:

The Pentagon, the intelligence community, the Justice Department and the White House oppose the detainee rules. The people who would have to carry out these boneheaded policies think they would actually weaken national security. ... Fortunately, President Obama has threatened to veto the Defense Authorization Act.

http://loyalopposition.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/30/president-obama-veto-the-defense-authorization-act/
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boxman15 Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Here's what the White House said in a letter to the Senate Armed Services Committee
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 01:00 AM by boxman15
"Broadly speaking, the detention provisions in this bill micromanage the work of our experienced counter-terrorism professionals, including our military commanders, intelligence professionals, seasoned counter-terrorism prosecutors, or other operatives in the field. Any bill that challenges or constrains the president's critical authorities to collect intelligence, incapacitate dangerous terrorists, and protect the nation would prompt the president's senior advisers to recommend a veto."

I'm glad the president wants to veto the legislation and has called it "harmful and counterproductive", but it's for the wrong reasons. It's not because locking up Americans indefinitely at will is flat-out wrong, no. They're against it because it would stretch our top military brass too thin. It would require too much micromanagement and work.

The prevailing attitude in Washington must be this: "It'll be easier to lock terrorists up this way. What could go wrong?" Under a sane administration (like this one), sure. I can (somewhat) see that attitude, but under an insane administration (like a Perry or Bachmann)? This bill authorizes the executive branch to be able to indefinitely lock up a person for being suspicious. And that is extremely dangerous.

Maybe the President also believes it's wrong because of its inherent unconstitutionality and danger. I sure hope so, but he needs to come out and say it. I know Obama wouldn't lock up just anybody, but a nutjob GOP president just might.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Please don't use The Daily Show as a source of information
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 12:19 AM by frazzled
I'm sure John Stewart would be the first to tell you that.

TDS often uses a clip out of context or exaggerates a single position to make a good satirical point. It's not in the business of giving you a full or detailed analysis of real policy issues. Often, they really get it wrong, too.

I think your best bet is to do some research (remember, The Google is your friend) to satisfy yourself on such questions. Make sure to consult a range of sources: national newspapers as well as sites you trust; and especially solid expert opinions. (No, Jane Hamsher or Ed Schultz are not "experts" in military or legal issues).
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boxman15 Donating Member (389 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I know that.
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 12:24 AM by boxman15
At first, I was 100% sure he took the quotes out of context so he could do a funny bit about how the bill was designed to box Obama in. But, then I looked into it, and I still am looking into it, and the Administration has not made a case against the bill that sounds like something I'd hope for, along the lines of "This bill is downright un-Constitutional and gives the presidency far too much power." Instead, it's been about how he's threatening a veto because, essentially, it's too complicated.

(I've looked at sources such as the New York Times and the Chicago Tribune, not Schultz or anyone like that, trust me I can't stand talking heads)
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. it's clear...
Edited on Thu Dec-08-11 02:51 PM by dennis4868
from the articles posted for you that the WH is concerned about the legality of it all....you just don't want to see the facts....that's your problem.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. That
"but I just saw the reasoning behind the administration's threat on the Daily Show"

...is a bogus claim that originated with a RW asshole. The fact that it is being pushed by left blogs is beyond strange.

STATEMENT OF ADMINISTRATION POLICY: S. 1867 – National Defense Authorization Act for FY 2012 (PDF)

<...>

Detainee Matters: The Administration objects to and has serious legal and policy concerns about many of the detainee provisions in the bill. In their current form, some of these provisions disrupt the Executive branch's ability to enforce the law and impose unwise and unwarranted restrictions on the U.S. Government's ability to aggressively combat international terrorism; other provisions inject legal uncertainty and ambiguity that may only complicate the military's operations and detention practices.

Section 1031 attempts to expressly codify the detention authority that exists under the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) (the “AUMF”). The authorities granted by the AUMF, including the detention authority, are essential to our ability to protect the American people from the threat posed by al-Qa'ida and its associated forces, and have enabled us to confront the full range of threats this country faces from those organizations and individuals. Because the authorities codified in this section already exist, the Administration does not believe codification is necessary and poses some risk. After a decade of settled jurisprudence on detention authority, Congress must be careful not to open a whole new series of legal questions that will distract from our efforts to protect the country. While the current language minimizes many of those risks, future legislative action must ensure that the codification in statute of express military detention authority does not carry unintended consequences that could compromise our ability to protect the American people.

The Administration strongly objects to the military custody provision of section 1032, which would appear to mandate military custody for a certain class of terrorism suspects. This unnecessary, untested, and legally controversial restriction of the President's authority to defend the Nation from terrorist threats would tie the hands of our intelligence and law enforcement professionals. Moreover, applying this military custody requirement to individuals inside the United States, as some Members of Congress have suggested is their intention, would raise serious and unsettled legal questions and would be inconsistent with the fundamental American principle that our military does not patrol our streets. We have spent ten years since September 11, 2001, breaking down the walls between intelligence, military, and law enforcement professionals; Congress should not now rebuild those walls and unnecessarily make the job of preventing terrorist attacks more difficult. Specifically, the provision would limit the flexibility of our national security professionals to choose, based on the evidence and the facts and circumstances of each case, which tool for incapacitating dangerous terrorists best serves our national security interests. The waiver provision fails to address these concerns, particularly in time-sensitive operations in which law enforcement personnel have traditionally played the leading role. These problems are all the more acute because the section defines the category of individuals who would be subject to mandatory military custody by substituting new and untested legislative criteria for the criteria the Executive and Judicial branches are currently using for detention under the AUMF in both habeas litigation and military operations. Such confusion threatens our ability to act swiftly and decisively to capture, detain, and interrogate terrorism suspects, and could disrupt the collection of vital intelligence about threats to the American people.

Rather than fix the fundamental defects of section 1032 or remove it entirely, as the Administration and the chairs of several congressional committees with jurisdiction over these matters have advocated, the revised text merely directs the President to develop procedures to ensure the myriad problems that would result from such a requirement do not come to fruition. Requiring the President to devise such procedures concedes the substantial risks created by mandating military custody, without providing an adequate solution. As a result, it is likely that implementing such procedures would inject significant confusion into counterterrorism operations.

<...>


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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Plus the fact that the bill is unconstitutional.
And any 8th grader could tell them that.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. The portion the OP is looking for:

"Moreover, applying this military custody requirement to individuals inside the United States, as some Members of Congress have suggested is their intention, would raise serious and unsettled legal questions and would be inconsistent with the fundamental American principle that our military does not patrol our streets."


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