There should be some industries which should be not for profit.

[Skidmore]

Poll question: There should be some industries which should be not for profit.

[notesdev]

1. Banking

"If the American People allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks... will deprive people of all their property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

- Thomas Jefferson


(sound familiar?)

[AndyTiedye]

4. The Issuing of Currency

is not quite the same as "banking".

The above quote supports government control over the issuing of currency, not "banking" as a whole.

Jefferson had it right.

That is in fact how our system worked, until recently. Banks had to work with the currency
the government issued. Allowing banks to sell derivatives was effectively allowing them to
mint their own currency, and had just the sort of results that Jefferson predicted.

It's OK (and probably better) for banks to be private, but they must not be allowed to create
their own "money".

[notesdev]

6. Actually

In our system, the creation of money (for which currency itself is a mere representation) IS in fact performed by the banks, by way of fractional reserve lending. Seriously, look it up, in America new money is issued by private banks.

This IS in fact the issuing of currency that Jefferson warned us about.

[AndyTiedye]

14. The Fed Sets the Reserve Requirements Though

so the Fed still controlled the money supply.

Derivatives broke that control.

[notesdev]

16. And the Fed is a banking cartel

There's a reason Andrew Jackson chased the central bankers out of town. We are rediscovering that reason by repeating the history we did not learn.

[SDuderstadt]

21. Oh, bullshit...

You have little idea what the Fed does or how it does it.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

56. The Fed is a autonomous federal agency, like NASA.

It is not "owned by the banks".

Oh, and Jackson's shutting down of the Bank of the US caused a depression, he was a moron.

[Exultant Democracy]

60. The people who work for it are owned by the banks its called regulatory capture.

In fact many think for some obvious reasons that our entire government is deep captured.

[SteveG]

25. Health care should never be for profit (nt)

nt

[Llewlladdwr]

40. Health Care Should Never Be For Profit?

So how exactly is a doctor supposed to eat?

[arbusto_baboso]

42. They eat just fine in other countries where it's not for profit.

Are you that ignorant of the world outside the US?

[Llewlladdwr]

45. Not that ignorant, no.

I am thinking though, that telling all the doctors in the US that they need to shut down their private practice (if they have one) is not going to end well.

[arbusto_baboso]

48. Well, now you're just misreading what was said.

Operating as a not-for-profit is FAR different from "shutting down private practice".

Perhaps you've heard of the Red Cross? They're a non-profit, and their employees are paid quite well.

[hooknows]

91. I thought the idea was to have Health care publicly owned, and

privately contracted. That is what, I think Ralph Nader has emphasized.

[Ron Green]

43. Ummm....from a nice salary.

[Llewlladdwr]

44. Where does the salary come from? NT

[Ron Green]

52. The salary comes from a universal health care system that pays doctors well,

subsidizes their training, and supports decisions made for medical (not economic) reasons.

[hooknows]

93. Cuba's socialized medicine is very good. They also have made

leaps in R&I without vested interests "killing he competition" so to speak. Why can't we just go on a fact finding mission to see how their system works and let the chips fall where they may?

[jmowreader]

111. Very simple.

They will work for the government, like they do in the Army or the VA. I have seen VA doctors and they don't look malnourished to me. They're not driving Mercedes, but they do fine.

[n2doc]

2. Health care

Because it is a fundamental right, IMHO.

[canoeist52]

3. yes health care -including pharmaceuticals

[Nye Bevan]

5. No, pharmaceutical companies need to be allowed to make profits.

That's what gives them the incentive to develop new drugs. Many of today's drugs would not have been discovered if not for profit-seeking pharmaceutical companies.

[SoCalDem]

8. No necessarily so. Polio vaccine was not a "profit-making" venture

There is a LOT of federal funding going on right now in medical research, and when a breakthrough happens, the drug companies reap massive profits that were (sometimes in a large part) built upon federal start-up money....and look at how many "wonder" drugs are pushed out on the market, only to be recalled a year or two later (after a HUGE profit-taking) because they seem to be killing people:(

[BzaDem]

46. The poster said "many" drugs wouldn't have been discovered -- not "all" drugs. The truth is that

researching a drug and bringing it to market costs unimaginably high sums of money, and many would not take on the huge risk without a commensurate reward if they succeed in discovering a life-saving drug.

Of course profits need to be regulated. Our system is unsustainable as it is now, and many changes are in order. But removing profit altogether from the equation isn't one of them.

[SoCalDem]

53. Profit for the drugs that are not life-saving (boner pills/acne meds, etc)

maybe, but meds that are necessary for life should be excluded from the money-grubbing .

I am not against paying the researchers/manufacturers a lucrative salary for what they do, but to make people choose between food or meds is evil

[Nye Bevan]

61. If you allow profits for "boner pills" and acne meds, but not for lifesaving drugs,

where do you think the pharmaceuticals are going to focus their research and development?

[txlibdem]

105. Big Pharma isn't making any "cures" -- only treatments for symptoms, on drugs for life

For-profit pharmaceuticals haven't "invented" a cure for anything in decades. There is far more profit in forcing you to take a drug, a series of drugs, or a "drug coctail" for the rest of your life.

[Maine_Nurse]

13. But profits are also why the companies...

Will develop 3 versions of a drug at the same time and for nearly the same cost as one (except for trials costs), then only release the first and worst one until the profit protection expires. Then they release number 2, and so on, keeping the public from getting the best available drug for at least a decade or more all to maximize profits.

[BzaDem]

47. This is an argument for much more regulation -- not removing profit entirely.

If you remove profit entirely, most companies simply will not take the huge risk and spend unimaginable sums of money to research and develop drugs. They simply will not take such a high risk without a commensurate reward if they are successful at discovering a drug. That is reality.

We need to regulate to prevent abuses of the kind you describe -- not eliminate profit altogether.

[AlabamaLibrul]

95. We need to reform the drug trial/introduction/patent process entirely

There are safe, useful drugs out there for a variety of things that never make it to the US simply because it was developed 30 years ago in some European country and no drug company is going to pay to introduce, FDA trial, market etc. a drug that they can't patent.

It's ridiculous that the health care system is based on procuring the drug that makes profit, not the one that works best.

[blondeatlast]

27. Not entirely true. Research now concentrates on how to reformulate existing drugs

in order to re-patent them and thus keep prices and profits up.

Let universities and the NIH do research. I'm no Big Pharma=Evil" type, but I am realistic because I've seen pharma's investment in insulin dependent diabetes research steadily decline while research into non-IDD rise.

Now just which one of those yields more profit for them? Hint: they don't make an enormous profit off of insulin.

[jmowreader]

112. Many of today's drugs probably shouldn't have been discovered

Put on your television and you're sure to find a commercial for a prescription drug. After listing this massive string of side effects, they invariably tell you to "ask your doctor if Urdixadrupen is right for you." Gee, I dunno...I don't think a drug that is supposed to treat depression, but whose major side effects include even more depression, is right for anyone.

[txlibdem]

121. Exactly. they don't "discover" any cures, only treat symptoms

There's no profit in curing you, far more profitable to keep you coming back each month for the rest of your life.

Profit corrupts the entire health care industry, at every level.

[Maine_Nurse]

11. It doesn't appear to help

all of our hospitals are non-profit or charity facilities and they suffer from the same kinds of issues as the for profit facilities in other states. Of course, if the Medcaid that makes up about 70% of their income was paid by the state within 5 years, that might help a bit.

[SoCalDem]

7. Amen.

1. energy (auto fuel/heating fuel/electricity)
2. health care (doctor/hospital/medicine)
3. communications (phone-internet)
4. banking
5. education

come immediately to mind.

[brewens]

9. Blood services. The FDA mandates we have to be not for profit

and it needs to stay that way. We also can't pay people to donate. Plasma centers can but that plasma is sold for research and manufacturing, it can't be transfused to patients. If people are paid to donate it gives them incentive to lie to us on the donor history questionnaire.

I suppose blood could be cheaper if some corporation imported it from China but how do you think that would work? They'd probably just drain all the blood from prisoners. You could get eight units a pop that way.

[Festivito]

10. Representation, Campaigning, Courts, Police, Post, News, and Health.

Should a rich person wish to add their own money to any of these, that money they give should be divided to their choices and to all the others involved. That is, for example, if someone wishes to raise the profile of a case, campaign, news story, et. al., they can, but, everyone is then allowed raising that profile together.

More tangibly, if an expensive lawyer is hired, the opponent gets that same additional amount in defense against that lawyer. If the rich person then decides not to expend double his lawyer cost, fine, both sides get average lawyers to adjudicate their claims.

[madokie]

12. Fuel, Food, Medicine, Housing and Energy

Things it takes to live should be controlled as to how much profit can be made.

[LeftishBrit]

15. Public services: health care, education, sanitation, etc.

[ThatsMyBarack]

17. Parts of the Airline industry.

Baggage check, pillows & blankets, food & drink, etc.

[panader0]

18. Our natural resources should belong to the people.

oil and gas
basic health care
education

[nuxvomica]

19. Health care, energy, telecom, journalism

I would include internet providers as well.

[exboyfil]

20. So what does not for profit really mean

Public universities are not for profit but doctors on staff at these universities make $300K or more. Examples of CEO pay

Partners HealthCare Systems $3.4M/yr
Museum of Modern Art $2.7M/yr
Children's Hospital of Phil $2.4M/yr
Metropolitan Opera Assoc. $1.5M/yr
New York University $1.4M/yr

Lots of foundations set up by the rich to avoid taxes who pay their idiot progeny big bucks.

Some of the items listed are truly crazy and has led to disaster in other countries. So long as strong antitrust regulations are in place markets like food, energy (utilities aside), and telecom are strengthened by being for profit. What is the alternative - central planning? If the distribution of gasoline was controlled by the government, do you really think normal folks would have nearly the opportunities and flexibility to drive?

Profit making is not sinful. It is what harnesses the strength of our modern economy.

I am in favor of single payer health care, but I recognize the market distortions that will be present if it is implemented. Primarily the near immediate access to advanced technology will be more limited for most middle class individuals, it could slow the potential development of more advanced drugs (I am not completely sold on this point, and I don't know if freezing drug development in place would be that bad compared to the alternative), we will see fewer specialists and access to those specialists will be reduced (doctors salaries are a big area of cost containment in single payer countries).

[A Simple Game]

70. CEO salaries are a sore spot for me.

I am sure no one could ever make a valid argument that those jobs could not be competently filled at a fraction of the cost.

[NightWatcher]

22. public safety, national defense, food safety, education, general welfare (small W)

[txlibdem]

23. All of them

[badtoworse]

26. This is not a well framed question.

I think you should draw a line between what industries do and what governments do. There's a lot of grey in the middle.

[SDuderstadt]

28. Well said n/t

[HopeHoops]

29. Health care and health insurance.

[Wounded Bear]

36. Yes to health care....eliminate "health insurance."

:)

[dionysus]

30. yes, energy and health care.

[Auntie Bush]

34. Agree

[defendandprotect]

31. A people's government should ensure the greatest good -- not the greatest profit -- !!

Let's just uninvent the dollar bill --

As long as it stands it will be a threat to democracy because it's a

way for elites to use wealth to usurp official power -- transferring

legitimate power from legitimate representatives to elites.

[Quantess]

32. Churches.

Maybe if they got taxed, they wouldn't be so profitable.

[Liberal_in_LA]

33. education

[Uncle Joe]

35. The use of for profit prisons, "health" Insurance and mercenaries should be outlawed.

They all contribute, magnify and serve to create national crisis-es whether it be a 21st century version of slavery with an exploding world record breaking prison population here in the "land of the free", inherent racism, criminalizing the American People in general and thereby disenfranchising the people from their government, exploding deficits and health care costs, elimination of political accountability, built in motivations for waging war and war profiteering, etc. etc. etc.

These for profit institutions are dysfunctional, illogical, serve no useful purpose and will over the long term threaten national security in one form or another.

Thanks for the thread, Skidmore.

[hifiguy]

37. Health care, public safety/parks and education

That is what this thing called civilization is all about.

[Jack Sprat]

38. Banks and oil companies for certain.

I think Wall Street needs to be nationalized too, if we aren't planning to regulate their financial activities.

[Quantess]

65. Good luck with that...and then you wake up from your silly dream.

:rofl:

[MrSlayer]

39. Health care, Prisons and Education should not be for profit.

I'm sure I could think of a few others but these are right off the top of my head.

[JuniperLea]

41. Health Insurance...

Making a profit off sick people is blood money.

[Tx4obama]

49. Prisons, jails, child detention centers, education, healthcare, ambulance service

Edited to add:

Adoptions and human organ donations.

[TBF]

50. Let's get rid of the market entirely. JMHO. nt

[Odin2005]

57. Uh, that was tried in several countries, it failed.

co-ops in a market economy is much better if true Socialism is what you are after.

[TBF]

68. Do you think it's working here? Hint: maybe for the top .05%. nt

[Quantess]

73. Yes, let's get rid of the Market, entireley.

Let's just...get rid of the whole market....entirely.
And not be subtle about it all.

[Nye Bevan]

62. YES! Supermarkets, clothes stores, book shops etc. would all be just like the DMV!

Excellent!

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBF]

67. Look up Emma Goldman -

education does wonders. Although I realize Obama supporters are only into standardized tests these days ...

[Quantess]

69. HaHa, fair enough!

"Let's get rid of the market entirely"
What does that entail, in your wildest dreams?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quantess]

72. You call me an "elite"?

"non-elites are not amused", you say.

But you never answered my initial question:

"Let's get rid of the market entirely"
What does that entail, in your wildest dreams?

[TBF]

103. I answered the question the best I could within the constraints of the rules

of this site. If that isn't good enough I'm sorry.

[Quantess]

107. So.... you don't know.

I hate it when people tell me this,

but at at least I have the courage and the honesty to tell you that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[TBF]

116. Read my response again slowly because you didn't understand

what I said at all.

[Quantess]

123. Oh, I understood you just fine. LOL

Once again, can you please explain what you meant?
Maybe re-stating in different words would be helpful.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quantess]

108. Does your explanation include profanity? Racist or sexist innuendoes? Really, it does?

Ooooh, let's see! Love it! (gleefully rubbing my hands)

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quantess]

77. .

duplicate.

[rucky]

51. Anything deemed a necessity. Any raw material that comes from nature. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. The Defense Industry - aka The Military Industrial Complex.

Better yet, just shut it down.

[RainDog]

63. Gen. Smedley Butler suggested military contractors get paid the same as infantry

whenever our nation went to war.

he assumed this would greatly reduce the numbers of wars.

[Odin2005]

55. Healtcare. Energy. Utillities. Mass Transit.

[Canuckistanian]

58. Postal Services

Never has been profitable, never should be. It's a vital government service that is partially funded by user postal fees.

[Hannah Bell]

110. it's very profitable for ups & fed ex. because their services are partially subsidized by the post

office & the feds.

[RainDog]

59. health care, energy, water, libraries, schools, prisons

probably others that I haven't thought about.

the profit motive is not always the best model when the common good, not shareholder profit, should determine practices, prices and policies.

[Supply Side Jesus]

64. Energy...Public Services

[blindpig]

74. Why get picky, let's get rid of profit. n/t

[SDuderstadt]

76. Oh, please...

Do you expect your bank to pay you interest on your savings account? Why? Why not just let your money sit there without earning interest?

[blindpig]

78. They pay interest on savings accounts?

Can you tell without a microscope?

Yep, the whole profit system needs to go. Profit is derived from stolen labor.

Of course this will not happen all at once, first finance, energy, the MIC, healthcare, prisons....that's a start.

[SDuderstadt]

81. Why should anyone take risk...

if there's no profit?

I think we are served best by a mix of big business and small-to-medium size business (especially) on the for-profit side, and government (socialized), non-profits and NGO's on the not-for-profit side.

This constant demonization of profit is a real disservice to small-to-medium size businesses.

[blindpig]

82. Why should they control the means of production in the first place?

Why should anyone profit from another's labor?

Medium and small business is but a blip on the radar, big business controls the bear's share and works constantly at putting small business out of business. In truth the petty businessperson would do well to throw his lot with the workers, they have the same enemy.
BTW, the US definitation of small business is absurd, 200 employees is small?

[SDuderstadt]

83. "Why should anyone profit from another's labor?"

Among other things, for taking risk. For providing ideas and innovation. For bringing products to the market. For providing livelihoods for suppliers.

I don't think you know very much about business.

[blindpig]

84. So where did they get this ability to 'take risk'?

Where did this money come from?

Stolen labor.

Ya wanna understand business? Here ya go:

[SDuderstadt]

86. Yes....

I often get my business education from cartoons.

[blindpig]

87. You should...

that one makes more sense than a pile of MBAs.

[SDuderstadt]

88. Of course it would...

to someone who does not understand business.

[blindpig]

89. Dispute the contention of the cartoon...

instead of making unfounded statements.

[SDuderstadt]

96. "Dispute the contention of the cartoon instead of making unfounded statements"

Think about what you just said. I would respond but I am laughing too hard.

[blindpig]

97. So, my laughing friend...

where does this capital to be 'risked' come from? Is it divinely bestowed? Does the capitalist pull it out of his ass? Or is it derived from previously stolen labor?

We are not talking about Mom&Pop's corner store, that is comparing ants to elephants.

[SDuderstadt]

98. How about SBA loans....

other borrowed capital and savings, dude?

Sorry, not buying your tripe.

[blindpig]

99. And where did that come from?

It always comes from someone else's labor, the labor of many for the benefit of the few.

[SDuderstadt]

100. Dude....

this is pointless.

[blindpig]

101. To you, perhaps.

It is clear that you do not want to or cannot understand the origin of profit.

[SDuderstadt]

102. Dude...

this is pointless.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cal Carpenter]

114. Risk

Like the risk of poisoning water and land so that production is as cheap as possible (and as profitable as possible - for the few) while the majority of the people pay for it forever, via their health and taxes.

How, in the face of some of the most blatant disasters (gulf oil spill, nuclear plants in Japan) caused by profitable 'risk' taking, not to mention the 'small' ones (pesticides in our food and water, toxic plastic in baby bottles) can you make this argument? When the quest for profit generates cheap products that are designed to be obsolete ASAP and create waste and contamination in both production and disposal...

The long term costs of those so-called 'risks' are put right back on the people. The same people who generated the profit for the few, the same people who work their butts off and barely make a living if at all...

What is really risky these days? Starting off with more money than one person could possibly need, and 'risking' some of it to make even more? Or just trying to be a normal human being working a 'normal' job and trying to make a living in the face of shrinking wages and benefits all in the name of some uber-wealthy person's increased bank account?

Risk. My ass.

Try again.

[maryf]

106. Damn, you took my line...

I'm just too slow and outta practice...:hi:

[myrna minx]

75. Potable water, energy, healthcare, prisons,sanitation, law enforcement. n/t

[Horse with no Name]

79. Anything that is completely necessary for survival should not have profits attached

Gasoline, utilities, healthcare, food, etc and should ALL be matters of national security--because security isn't just about protecting borders.

[grahamhgreen]

80. All essential services, or industries that have become defacto monopolies.

[Exilednight]

85. Basic utilites - electricity, water, basic local phone service - Basic protection services - police,

fire, military, prisons - Basic health care. Internet service.

On a side note, I notice 9 people voted for the market, but failed to explain why.

[WhollyHeretic]

90. Health care, education (including college), energy, and water

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

92. Education, healthcare, water, electricity, public transportation. Maybe I'm leaving something out.

I'm thinking defense, too, but not 100% sure on that.

All other should have regulation to avoid rich oligopolies bleeding people dry.

[hooknows]

94. In "Das Kapital" Marx talks about the phenomenon of the Capitalist

system taking over all other modes of production by turning everything into a commodity. The problem that plagues this system is that monopoly and NOT FREE ENTERPRISE has always been the norm. The Capitalist system as its champions like to repeat has never operated as they want to believe. Libertarianism religiously tries to argue for free enterprise when there has never been a way of insuring it. Without its main premise how can the pro-Capitalists continue with their delusion?

[Cal Carpenter]

115. That's the thing about capitalism

It has to fill in every nook and cranny, that's what it does. As a system it relies on expansion. And it leads to concentration of wealth and power, of ownership of the means of production for everything we need to live. It has to spread to all industries, to all corners of the globe. Maybe a couple hundred years ago it was hard to imagine how ubiquitous it would become but in modern times anyone who argues that it can harnessed, regulated or controlled, is either lying or terribly naive.

[NotThisTime]

104. Healthcare/nt

[wickerwoman]

113. Any industry that puts one person substantially in another person's power

should never be run for profit.

Absolutely not: prisons, defense, health care, education, air travel, space exploration, the police.

And any industry with the potential to seriously threaten peoples' ability to secure basic needs for themselves should be regulated: public utilities, finance, real estate, agriculture, transportation, etc.

[F Bastiat]

117. Are you willing to work for free in one of these industries?

[Motown_Johnny]

119. of course not. Employees still get paid, it is the stock holders we are talking about here

to bad you don't understand that without being told

[F Bastiat]

120. If there are no stock holders, there is no capital...

if there is no capital, there is no industry.

[Motown_Johnny]

122. you honestly believe there are no non profit companies in America?

maybe go browse here for a while

http://www.manta.com/mb_33_F0_000/associations_non_profits

^snip^

1,053,854 Associations/Non-profits in the U.S.
There are too many to list. Narrow by: Subcategory | Location


have fun

[Motown_Johnny]

118. All Insurance, it is just blood money which is their profit

a "Co-op" approach to insurance, all insurance, where benefits and operating expenses are the only things needed to be covered by premiums would greatly increase the spending power of the American consumer and boost the economy (while saving our souls, if we have them).