In Libya: Killing In The Name Of Peace

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

In Libya: Killing In The Name Of Peace
(posted with the author's permisson from: http://sane-ramblings.blogspot.com/2011/06/in-libya-killing-in-name-of-peace.html)

With its daily multiple missile attacks in Tripoli, NATO is delivering its deadly message. On Tuesday, for example, as ear jarring explosions rocked the city with earthquake force, debris flew in every direction, as black billowing clouds of toxic smoke rose high into the skies, darkening day into night. Red hot flames consumed buildings and burned to death anyone unable to flee from them.

This action NATO is taking to bring "pressure" on the Libyan government. Pressure for what? For new leadership? And if so, who will rule next? How and by whom will those rulers be chosen? How will order be established and maintained? What voice will the Libyan people have?

Four months ago when President Obama and NATO launched this war, Mr. Obama told us it was in support of the "rebels" and to prevent a massacre of the Libyan people. But that massacre is in full force as NATO unleashes Hell on earth to bring peace. Mr. Obama said there would be "no boots on the ground," but what about the boots of the Libyan people? Aside from the dead and severely injured Libyan men, women and children, how will the rest of the Libyans live? In this brutal chaos, how will they get food and other necessities? If Tripoli's hospitals aren't bombed, are there enough of them and enough doctors and medicines to care for a bloodied populace? Highly unlikely.

As their housing is being destroyed, where will the survivors live? Reportedly they are fleeing by the thousands, but to where can they flee where its safe? What will become of their economy and their jobs? What about all the traumatized and frightened children, why must they suffer? What about all the orphaned children, who will care for them?

Despite President Obama's fantasy presentation, this is what war does. It destroys everything in its path. It is horrifically sickening as we saw in Vietnam which today is why the U.S. news media shows little of it to the American people. For if Americans could see what their war machine is causing in Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, no-one would want to be associated with it.

In response, they might hold President Obama and Congress accountable for their actions. We as a people can sit silent while all this death and destruction takes place, as most Americans are doing or we can raise our voices on behalf of our fallen brethren and bring this killing to an end. What we do now tells our children and tells the world who we are as a people and what values we uphold.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Being unrecc'd ?

Truth's a bitch at times.

You maybe should've posted this in reponse to Libyan Revolution Week 316 part 4. :rofl:

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

2. Re: Being unrecc'd ?

I know it is nice to collect recommendations, but I was hoping for more comments, as I fell the author asks some valid questions.
Answers anyone? Anyone?

[TheWraith]

3. The author's questions aren't valid. They're based on false premises.

By the Libyans' own accounts, the "bloodbath" and collateral damage created by NATO strikes doesn't exist.

[dipsydoodle]

6. By " Libyans' own accounts" I take you it mean

the propaganda which spews forth from the rebel posse aka complete tossers.

[tabatha]

8. Well, the Libyan government

have tried again and again to show civilian casualties - and each time they have proven to be fraudulent.

Surely, the Libyan government of all bodies, would be able to make the case - but they cannot. Because there have been next to none.

As for destruction:

NATO ============> destroying MILITARY targets
GADDAFI =========> destroying CIVILIAN targets

Please provide facts to prove otherwise.

On edit:
One comment I read was that about 60% of Libyan earnings were spent on weapons.
So much so, that Libya is basically a military infrastructure with people living in it.

[sabrina 1]

7. We don't hear from the actual, original rebels anymore.

We hear from the collaborators. There are always collaborators and CIA operatives on the ground in these Imperial wars.

Soon, there will be troops on the ground in Libya, a puppet government installed, their oil resources divvied up among the Global Oil Cartels, just like Iraq's and the fighting will go on, because just removing/murdering/assassinating or whatever we call killing uncooperative leaders of Oil Rich countries these days, won't end the conflict. All of which is GOOD for the war profiteers, and who will even speak to a real Libyan citizen. Certainly not on our media.

The recipe is always the same. First report on unrest against a despot, then claim you care about the people, report on atrocities real or imagined to get the emotional support needed for the eventual war. That worked this time, even on people like me as they cleverly piggy-backed on the other Arab revolutions.

Then comes the air war. Lighting up the sky and of course there are no bodies from our humanitarian bombs. After the air war will come a plea to understand why some ground troops are necessary, because there are still Qadaffi supporters there. I wouldn't be surprised if those supporters morph into Al Queda, traditionally enemies of Qadaffi. That way they can blend the WOT with their 'humanitarian' occupation of yet another Oil rich Arab country. And some peopel will buy it as they bought Saddam and Al Queda despite the fact that he hated and feared them.

Libya's resources will be plundered, as were Iraq's, their infrastructure destroyed, and nothing will improve for the citizens, just like Iraq.

Anyone who doubts this outcome must believe in the fairy tale that the same people currently killing innocents in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Yemen have only a humanitarian interest in Libya. They have suddenly lost interest in the oil resources of the countries they invade.

So sad, especially since the original rebels stated over and over again how they did not want their country occupied or turned into 'another Iraq' or any foreign troops on the ground. But they have all been shoved aside now and the 'expats' always part of the scenario, have taken over.

And the PNAC can cross another oil rich Arab nation off their list. I think only Iran remains.

[Arctic Dave]

9. Preach it.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

20. CIA has been there for a long time.

I've been involved, and now I'm just sad for the people of Libya. I don't support Imperial wars.

I hope you're right about 'troops on the ground', but I doubt it.

Libya is on the PNAC list and it is about to be 'occupied' the way imperialists always occupy countries whose resources they want, by placing in power, puppets who will not rock their boats, and if they do, they will meet the fate as Saddam and others.

[tabatha]

25. Well, we will have to see who is right.

"about to be 'occupied' the way " is not true.

NATO has said over and over again that there will be no boots on the ground.
The boots on the ground are the FFs.

[joshcryer]

45. Indeed, post-Gaddafi will have no NATO troops on the ground.

There will likely be UN forces for the elections but other than that there will be no occupation. Again and again we repeat this and again and again we're proven right but every day it seems like the false claim of NATO occupation is pulled out of someones ass.

[Distant Observer]

70. Why would NATO troops be on the ground? This is a Western/Saudi SCAM. NATO'S' a tool.

[joshcryer]

44. How have you "been involved"?

Let's see, I only saw your nickname bashing the revolutionaries since Catherina stopped posting because of some sort of conspiracy.

[Distant Observer]

24. The original protestors said Western involvement would DELIGITIMIZE there cause -- the new leaders

call for NATO to win the fight for them and give them billions to boot.

[tabatha]

26. Incorrect.

The people begged for NATO support - did you not see the cheering when the UN resolution was passed.

The "new leaders" are not giving them billions - they are asking for billions.

Please could you list the "old leaders" and the "new leaders".

[Distant Observer]

33. While the people starve in Tripoli, the Benghazi Titans DEMAND access to Soveriegn Fund

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-17/libya-rebels-economy-chief-says-help-to-fight-qaddafi-taking-too-long-.html

[Cerridwen]

58. "Titans"? Well, thank heavens that doesn't show any bias.

Nope. None.

Not a bit.

Really.

[joshcryer]

62. I remember when UN WFP aid went in to Tripoli but Gaddafi attacked the same aid from Misrata.

I remember that really well. Cluster munitions, mines, rocket deployable mines, even. Fun times. A war crime, btw.

[joshcryer]

40. They're the same people and they STILL do not want NATO OCCUPATION FORCES.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

Great comments, Sabrina.

"Libya's resources will be plundered, as were Iraq's, their infrastructure destroyed, and nothing will improve for the citizens, just like Iraq."

Bingo!

[joshcryer]

39. Complete untruths.

[joshcryer]

64. BTW, when none of this nonsense happens will to agree to admit you were wrong?

Or will you just quietly slither away because you know on an internet forum no one will hold you accountable for repeated false claims?

[xchrom]

4. I thought every body was broke?

The euro zone has a 9% unemployment.
We have 9.1% unemployment.

[Octafish]

5. K&R 3 and it's down to '2' before I can even post this...

If we weren't so busy running a protection racket for Big Oil, we coulda asked Gaddhafi for an honest election before killing innocent people in the name of democracy.

[sabrina 1]

16. But we are an Empire now and Empires invade and kill

and pillage. They don't have much interest in 'honest elections' they install who they want to run things for them.

Re the unrecs, some people still believe all these bombs are humanitarian bombs.

[Octafish]

18. Unlike Afghanistan and Iraq, they've got a 'D' beside them.

Then, again, who went along with all that WMD-hoola and then took impeachment off the table?

Maybe we should just drop the pretense: War Party or Not War Party.

[sabrina 1]

21. Yes, I suppose we had to see it happen to believe it.

Well, I'm speaking for myself. I was fooled :-)

[David__77]

10. Sovereignty is the solution.

I am tired of the "human rights" imperialism.

[pampango]

19. Perhaps the John Birch Society was right after all. The UN is a threat to sovereignty.

;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

The society is against "one world government", and has an immigration reduction view on immigration reform. It opposes the United Nations, the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), the Central America Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA), the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA), and other free trade agreements. The society argues that there is a devaluing of the U.S. Constitution in favor of political and economic globalization, and that this trend is not an accident. It cites the existence of the Security and Prosperity Partnership as evidence of a push towards a North American Union.

Or, for a more modern example, perhaps Frances' National Front?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)#Political_profile

In the early 2000s, the party denounced the treaties of Schengen, Maastricht and Amsterdam as foundations for "a supranational entity spelling the end of France." In 2004, the party critisised the EU as "the last stage on the road to world government," likening it to a "puppet of the New World Order."

If you have examples of liberal progressive parties that promote the importance of sovereignty (politicians, dictators?) over people, please feel free to provide them.

It's the right that fights institutions like the International Criminal Court, the UN, climate change treaties and many others in the name of national sovereignty.

[David__77]

23. Nation-states and "people" are not mutually exclusive.

The modern nation-state emerged as a progressive step for human rights. To me, this is not a "left" or "right" thing, but rather a north-south thing (developed countries and developing countries). The global south is asserting its rights increasingly, including its right to form sovereign, viable nation-states. I think that is a progressive demand. If JBS thought so too, I would commend them - but they in fact do not. JBS wants unlimited sovereignty for the US and none at all for the developing countries and certainly none for socialist countries.

[Distant Observer]

11. Who still believes that the "trreat" of a massacre in Benghazi justifies the destruction and havoc

that the Western powers have unleashed in Libya.

Every death from the current civil war is more blood on the hands of the West and its citizens.

Obama has lost a lot of respect as he becomes the mouthpiece of the same old
elegantly ruthless, arrogant and self-righteous Euro-imperial dominance a philosopher once
called "the splendid blond beast."

[tabatha]

14. Jeez, did you not notice the

flattening of Zawiya; the destruction of the cities in the western mountains; etc, etc.
It was not just about Benghazi. But, then of course, you are not very up-to-date on Libyan matters.

"Obama has lost a lot of respect as he becomes the mouthpiece of the same old
elegantly ruthless, arrogant and self-righteous Euro-imperial dominance a philosopher once
called "the splendid blond beast."

Crapola-salad. Almost as bad as Palin-word-salad.

[Cerridwen]

66. "...by Gaddafi forces, including attacks on civilians, aid workers, and medical units."

An estimated 10,000 to 15,000 people have been killed on both sides in four months of fighting in Libya, according to Cherif Bassiouni, who led a U.N. Human Rights Council mission to Tripoli and rebel-held areas in late April.

People look at the damage, which the Libyan government said was from a coalition air strike, at the house of Saif Al-Arab Gaddafi, son of Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi, in Tripoli

His panel found evidence of war crimes by Gaddafi forces, including attacks on civilians, aid workers, and medical units. Aircraft, tanks, artillery, Grad rockets, snipers were used. It also found some evidence of crimes by opposition forces.

Still want to argue he's the Arabian Huey Long?

[readmoreoften]

13. To paraphrase Tariq Ali: whether Libya wins or loses against Gaddafi, they have already lost.

The US and NATO will either control who gets to govern next, with the possibility of splitting the nation, or, at worse, we could have an Iraq-style occupation. It was the devil or the deep blue sea. And those CIA disinformation spouting opportunists (or "humanitarian" jingoists) are un-excusably ignorant or downright sinister for misrepresenting this as anything other than imperialism in the guise of solidarity.

[tabatha]

15. I'd love to see what you say when a

new govt is elected and all of the Libyans are SO joyful and happy at what they have accomplished.

[sabrina 1]

28. Like the Iraqis you mean? Who would be so thrilled to be ''liberated'

they would be throwing flowers in front of our tanks? Ask them now how that worked out for them. Lots of people here believed that back then also. I remember having these exact same conversations with Iraq war supporters. 'They will thank us for toppling their dictator, for shutting down the torture chambers' etc. etc.

Exactly the same. They will get another Iraq, it's almost there. And the rebel I heard on NPR a few weeks ago, knew it. 'Who are these 'commanders' he asked, 'where did they come from' and 'why are they ordering us to go fight battles we cannot win'? And finally, 'I have seen things I do not want to talk about, I am so angry'.

I do not support Imperial wars.

[inna]

22. Exactly.

"Sinister" is one way of putting it, I guess. :shrug:

[joshcryer]

57. Interesting how your premise begins with nonsensical claims that have been rejected from the start.

The rebels do not want to split the nation and consider such an option non-viable. And they do not want an occupation of any kind.

While no doubt the US and the west will make deals, particularly rebuilding contracts for the US (we can't refine their oil very well and it's just no good for us), the end result will be a society free from the tyranny that they've had to deal with for 40+ years. While you may think that "bashing imperialism" is more important than supporting freedom fighters, I myself will chose to side with the freedom fighters despite that I know that yes the west will benefit from helping them. There currently exist no alternative, and they would've lost in a very bad way had the west not intervened. Now if only the west would give a shit about Syria.

[gratuitous]

17. "Hold President Obama and Congress accountable"

Comedy gold!

Seriously, though, the questions are pertinent: Who succeeds Qaddafi if we finally kill him (all nice and legal, of course, because we're the empire and have agreed this week that Qaddafi is a really, really bad person) or drive him out of the country? Is there a plan for free and open elections? What happens until those elections can be held? How will voter eligibility be determined and by whom? Or will a new strongman emerge and seize power in Libya? Will we remove that person, too? Or, if we decide that he's a nice, friendly type who will grant Big Oil access to all that sweet, sweet, Libyan crude, will we suffer him to rule Libya? Will he be more or less repressive than Qaddafi, and how will we know that prospectively?

We're busy blundering into Quagmire No. 3, and nobody in a position to do anything about it is asking any of these questions (and there are a LOT more to be asked and answered).

[tabatha]

27. I'll be so glad when all of the detractors are proven wrong.

But then I won't be thinking of the detractors - but of the joy of the Libyans.

[Distant Observer]

29. Joy for some DEATH FOR THE REST. That is the story of civil war, but West is now the big killer

of people who are defenseless against their vastly superior technology. SOME CALL THAT MURDER!

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inna]

37. "repetitive distortions and lies" - not only a ridiculous and uncalled for personal attack,

but apparently also a projection on your part.

Tabatha - why do you have a need to personally attack anyone who isn't buying the (painfully obvious) propaganda?


And for god's sakes, if you're so "tired" of other people's opinions that happen to differ from yours, just ignore their posts, that's all it takes.

[Cerridwen]

65. "...by Gaddafi forces, including attacks on civilians, aid workers, and medical units."

An estimated 10,000 to 15,000 people have been killed on both sides in four months of fighting in Libya, according to Cherif Bassiouni, who led a U.N. Human Rights Council mission to Tripoli and rebel-held areas in late April.

People look at the damage, which the Libyan government said was from a coalition air strike, at the house of Saif Al-Arab Gaddafi, son of Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi, in Tripoli

His panel found evidence of war crimes by Gaddafi forces, including attacks on civilians, aid workers, and medical units. Aircraft, tanks, artillery, Grad rockets, snipers were used. It also found some evidence of crimes by opposition forces.

Still want to argue he's the Arabian Huey Long?

[gratuitous]

30. I'd be as joyful as a liberated Libyan to be wrong

However, just because it's in the universe of possible outcomes, doesn't mean it's going to happen. I suppose if you jam a fork into an electrical outlet, you just might poop out a pill that cures cancer. But the smart money is going to bet on the forkholder being shot across the room, collapsing in a cloud of steam and smoke.

[tabatha]

32. Try listening to this station

http://www.tributefm.com/

They are live from noon to 5pm, PST.

(They are live now, maybe a repeat.)

[killbotfactory]

34. Where was this blog when Gaddafi's army was slaughtering it's way through towns?

When he was gunning down protesters in the street? When his forces were shelling cities indiscriminately and sniping people who dared to walk down the fucking street? You know, before any outside power decided to intervene?

I know, I know, I'm sure I'll find it in the archives somewhere. :eyes:

[Distant Observer]

35. US Defence and Intel said they could not find evidence to support those claims -- before the bombin

[Cerridwen]

50. Link? Proof? n/t

[Distant Observer]

67. Do a quick google and look at press reports at that time. Not Secret. McCain called for resignation

[Cerridwen]

68. You're advocating for mccain? Wrong board, btw.

No. You made statement. You provide evidence.

I don't give a flying-fuck what mccain said. Really. I don't.

Provide your link or stand down.

[inna]

38. try to exercise some critical thinking. you bought into propaganda.

[killbotfactory]

41. I watched things unfold thanks to DU threads

DU = CIA OPS!!!

[JVS]

42. DU is only as good as the sources it refers to.

Very little is done here in the way of investigative journalism.

[inna]

47. well, good thing then that most DUers (as well as most of general population too, btw) do NOT

support the imperialistic "intervention" in Libya (or elsewhere, for that matter).

(You wouldn't know it if you uncritically accepted the pro-war propaganda, though.)

[Cerridwen]

48. Speaking of propaganda...what's a 'government minder'? n/t

[joshcryer]

53. Link?

[The Northerner]

36. K&R nt

[joshcryer]

43. No one is fleeing Tripoli except for black migrants that Gaddafi has loaded on to ships at gunpoint.

The people fleeing Libya are fleeing because of Gaddafi's aggression and laws that make it effectively illegal to dissent or to even be in the same jurisdiction of someone who has dissented. They have no choice and can only hope to return to Libya if Gaddafi is ousted.

[inna]

49. lol, where do you even get this garbage?

improvising as we speak, or are you really THAT misinformed?

even the rabidly pro-war corporate M$M doesn't make such ridiculously outlandish claims as you guys do sometimes.

[joshcryer]

51. What aspect of what I wrote is wrong? It is factually accurate. It's not my fault you find it funny.

...that Gaddafi forced migrants on to overloaded ships at gunpoint or that there are no mass migrations out of Tripoli but that the western mountains and the eastern side of Libya have had hundreds of thousands of Libyan citizens migrate away due to Gaddafi's aggression.

I also don't know what's funny about laws that make entire jurisdictions responsible for the acts of a few. It'd be like arresting everyone in the French Quarter for what a few people did on Bourbon Street.

[Cerridwen]

52. Reading articles that mentioned the problems with 'government minders.'

Which you seem to have missed.

Not that I speak for anyone else on this board, but if you haven't noticed a salient point about a particular topic, I'd guess you haven't been paying attention. If you comment without paying attention, I'd guess you don't know what exactly you're commenting on.

YMMV.

eta: article was meant to be plural

[joshcryer]

54. Haha, you might be interested in this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=960062&mesg_id=966894

[Cerridwen]

55. LOL

That was precisely what I remembered.

:rofl:

wtf is "minders"? sounds like something out of the Harry Potter books

[joshcryer]

59. Ahh, I was wondering if that's what you were getting at.

:hi: :)

[Cerridwen]

61. Ya, shhhhure, ya betcha.

I'm a fan of SG-1 and that's a 'line' from the dialogue. Yeah, I'm weird.

:hi:

:D

[inna]

60. wrong assumption(s) on your part, but... whatever.

[Cerridwen]

63. Really? You didn't know what a 'government minder' was after

weeks of reporting from journalists talking about their government minders but somehow you managed to miss all that while following what was happening in Libya?

Okay.

[Kurska]

46. Yup, sometimes to protect innocent people the bad guys gotta die.

I'll try really really really hard to care.

[EFerrari]

56. About 15,000 killed in Libya war: UN

An estimated 10,000 to 15,000 people have been killed on both sides in four months of fighting in Libya, according to Cherif Bassiouni, who led a U.N. Human Rights Council mission to Tripoli and rebel-held areas in late April.

His panel found evidence of war crimes by Gaddafi forces, including attacks on civilians, aid workers, and medical units. Aircraft, tanks, artillery, Grad rockets, snipers were used. It also found some evidence of crimes by opposition forces.

http://hken.ibtimes.com/articles/160246/20110610/about-15-000-killed-in-libya-war-un.htm

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

71. Thank you for that link. nt

[Distant Observer]

69. US Intel assessment said there was NO INDEPENDENT EVIDENCE of massacres

of "innocents" occurring prior to the "intervention".

The war is based on false pretexts use to achieve Western goals for the region.

Council on Foreign Relations
Senate Testimony
http://www.cfr.org/africa/perspectives-crisis-libya/p24602
Richard Hass, CFR President:

" In two critical areas, however, I would suggest that what has been asserted as fact was in reality closer to assumption. First, it is not clear that a humanitarian catastrophe was imminent in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi.

There had been no reports of large-scale massacres in Libya up to that point, and Libyan society (unlike Rwanda, to cite the obvious influential precedent) is not divided along a single or defining fault line. Gaddafi saw the rebels as enemies for political reasons, not for their ethnic or tribal associations.

To be sure, civilians would have been killed in an assault on the city – civil wars are by their nature violent and destructive – but there is no evidence of which I am aware that civilians per se would have been targeted on a large scale. Muammar Gaddafi’s threat to show no mercy to the rebels might well have been just that: a threat within the context of a civil war to those who opposed him with arms or were considering doing so. "

James Clapper, the Director of National Inteligence, concurred with this assessment

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

72. And how do bombs differentiate between "bad guys"...

and little babies and their moms?

[krabigirl]

73. uh yeah, and when we do that, we kill innocent people along with it.

I am tired of the killing. enough is enough.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

74. “Gates blasts NATO, questions future of alliance.”

“Gates blasts NATO, questions future of alliance.” http://www.airforcetimes.com/ NATO is comprised of 28 nations but most NATO bombings in Libya are U.S. and to a far lesser extent, British and French. After that it quickly falls off to zero, for it seems most other members don’t have the stomach or the budget to do what the U.S. is doing.