2 choices

[rdking647]

you can either support Obama and the dems even if he does cut ss and medicare or you can support someone else which meand teh GOP wins in 2012 and instead of SS and medicare being cut the get eliminated..
thats it.
those are your 2 choices. you can bitch and moan and complain all you want but that is the reality. It may suck but lifes a bitch..
2 choices.
either Obama with all his flaws or a complete GOP takeover.
which will you choose?

[Autumn]

1. Not much of a choice there

lesser of two evils is still evil.

[rdking647]

3. but that doesnt change things

thats your 2 choices. period.. thats just the way it is. you may not like it but thats it. period.

[Autumn]

5. One does not have to vote for the top ticket period.

One can vote their conscience and support Democrats down ticket. NO ONE who cuts SS will get my vote. period. Thats just the way it is.

[rdking647]

7. so you dont have a problem

with the elimination of SS

[Autumn]

9. Obviously you don't have a problem with the

elimination of SS as long as it's a Democrat who does it. Me, I prefer a rapid descent into hell over a long drawn out slide. If the Democrats cut SS then it's probably time for the party to implode and build a new one from the ashes. My vote will not be given to any one who cuts SS.

[rdking647]

8. it may be a bad choice

but thats the reality. whether you like it or not its either Obama or a bat shit crazy republican

[Autumn]

11. IF, and that's a big if, Obama cuts SS,

he is bat shit crazy. That will cost us the election and put a republican in the White House, and I doubt you will see a Democrat there for years. Republicans don't bother to help the Democrats when they screw up, in fact you will never hear them praise Obama the way he praises Reagan.

[SharonAnn]

78. A GOP takeover would mean a huge crash. Then, maybe people will vote

to restore middle class America.

Sometimes, an addict has to "hit bottom" in order to want change. We haven't hit anywhere near bottom yet.

It's a lousy thing to look forward to, but I don't think voting for the "least worst" is going to get us what we need.

[Ichingcarpenter]

2. You can financially support democratic candidates for congress

work for their election etc.

I will vote for Obama but not give him more time or money
than just to pull the lever.

You give a false choice.

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. I will not support any democrat who cuts SS and medicare.

If the party and the country burn, that is THEIR lookout, not mine.

I only take responsibility for my own conscience and principles.

[rdking647]

6. like i said you only have 2 choices

if the GOP wins,especially if its a nut like bachman then kiss SS and medicare goodbye.
a good analogy is which would you rather have. The flu or terminal cancer????
on eis bad and the other is FATAL

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. No, I don't have two choices. I have only one.

The representatives, the senators, the president have two choices. They can support SS and medicare, or they can allow the republicans to crash them.

THEIR choice. Not mine.

[stlsaxman]

67. MATH 101: If you have two things to choose from you only have ONE choice.

you DO NOT have "2 choices".

You have 2 to choose from.

[woo me with science]

15. +1

[Crazy Dave]

10. That's the same kind of shit they'll be using for stump speeches

I'm bad but not as bad as my opponent is.

[Autumn]

12. That sure as hell won't get them votes.

A strategy like that will ensure we lose.

[Rex]

It is beyond pathetic that we get to choose between 15 different types of toilet paper

but only 2 types of ruling parties. Like there is any choice in the matter...vote D or don't vote.

[Brickbat]

13. It's amazing, but I'm finding a way to not take either of your two choices.

[sudopod]

14. If you're going to talk to me that way, at least pull my hair like you really mean it. nt

[kenny blankenship]

16. All you people with your stinking "you got noplace else to go" shit just convince me

that Nader was right.

That may suck for you and it's a bitch and too bad and all that - but hey that's life pal, deal with it. Now you got two choices: LOVE IT or LUMP IT. I don't give a fuck either way.

[L0oniX]

17. Retire in poverty and live out in the streets or ....hmmm

If Obama cuts SS and Medicare then as far as I am concerned it won't make any difference who gets to be president. Maybe it would to someone younger who doesn't want to be forced to pay into the systems. Guess what ...get ready for a knock on your door and see your parents asking if they can stay with you ...when they can't get a job cause they are too old ...and they got fucked out of the SS and Medicare that they paid into all their working life.

[spanone]

19. says who?

[mmonk]

20. My vote is my own and cannot be defined by you or anyone else

or any stated false choices. It is what it is and if does not match yours, that does not mean it is less.

[rdking647]

26. and a third party vote is a vote for a rethug

especially in a swing state.
it was only a couple of hundred votes in a swing state that gave us 8 years of shrub

[ZombieHorde]

59. Gore and Lieberman spoiled the 2000 Presidential race for Nader.

A vote for Gore was a vote for Bush.

[mmonk]

61. Even though I have not voted third party before, a vote for a third

party candidate is a vote for that third party candidate and no one else.

[LWolf]

21. The real world is simply not that clear cut.

There are always other choices.

I will, as always, choose the best candidate on the ballot. If there is no acceptable candidate, I'll write one in.

If enough made their voting choices like that, our nation would be a hell of a lot healthier.

It's the cowardice of the voting masses, and the propaganda that drives them, that results in the reality you predict.

[rdking647]

24. none of this changes the fact that we will have 2 choices in 2012

Obama or a rethug.
a vote for a third part takes a vote from obama. it only took a couple hundred votes to give us 8 years of shrub.
but certain far left folks can stand on their high moral ground and proclaim "if Obama does this I wont vote for him" And then when bachman or romney wins they can continue bitching about how bad things are.
Its almost like certain parts of the left are masochists and want to inflict maximum pain on themselves. they arent happy unless they are miserable

[Raine]

48. It's presumptious and arrogant to claim that

takes a vote from Obama. That vote doesn't belong to Obama it's not his by divine right. Neither does it belong a rethug. It belongs to the voter and it's their right to cast it for whoever they feel has earned it.

[rdking647]

70. are you prepared to live with the result?

[LWolf]

73. We have a variety of choices in 2012.

1. We can vote for the Democrat.
2. We can vote for the Republican.
3. We can vote for a 3rd party candidate.
4. We can vote for an independent.
5. We can not vote at all.
6. We can write in an acceptable candidate if none appear on the ballot.
7. We can vote, but withhold donations and campaign support, if the party candidate is unacceptable.
8. We can work our asses off for every good candidate on our ballot, and bypass the rest.

We have plenty of choices. Just because you reject them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Which is my point; to rebut your false claim that there are only 2 choices.

Disclaimer added: please note that I am not advocating for, nor against, any of the above choices; simply pointing out that they exist.

[saras]

22. I choose not to buy into your model - it offers nothing but despair and death

Do you seriously believe that Bachmann, or Romney, or whoever the Republicans end up nominating, is going to be running that close to Obama that every vote in every state is going to count? The only way I could see THAT happening is if the vote is fixed with voting machines in every single state, and massive adjustments are made. Under those conditions I'm not going to worry about whether I support Obama or someone more progressive and worthy of the Democratic nomination.

And if that is NOT the case, then you're simply lying. In many states, one or the other will be sure to win, and so a fair number of Dems (all of them in some red states) are free to make a protest vote for a more progressive candidate with no risk to the election.

And thirdly, as my title noted, I've ALWAYS found the "*I* say that *YOU* have to eat either cat shit or dog shit" model to be untrustworthy, and I always look towards whoever is presenting me with the choices as the problem, and the correct choice as the one they're denying me. It works pretty well as a generic system, even if I ignore the actual subject matter of the debate. That model just has a 100% failure rate.

[Edweird]

23. Nonsense. W couldn't touch SS due to unified Dem opposition.

[Bluebear]

25. "you can bitch and moan, It may suck but lifes a bitch.. " Such eloquence.

[Palmer Eldritch]

63. Do you deny the validity of the OP?

[Raine]

27. I don't have to make a choice when there is none, I don't have to anything.

I don't have to cast a vote and I will NOT cast a vote for anyone who screws with SS. If the Democrats screw with SS they are the ones that made the choice. They are the ones at fault, if they don't get elected. They know what people want and they aren't following the will of the people, they only have themselves to blame.

[rdking647]

28. i hope no one you know has an unplanned pregnancy

since president bachman will nominate a far right person to replace ginsberg when she retires.
and i hope you dont lose your job since there will be no unemployment.
as for healthcare--- dont get sick

[RegieRocker]

29. Two dimensional thinking in both partys keeps us in the

same ol loop. There have been numerous Tea Party members trashing republicans. The only way out, is to get out of the loop. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Yea, that will work.

[rdking647]

30. you have 16 months until election day

who one the left has a prayer in hell of winning except Obama?
name me 1 person...
maybe if you started nov 5 2008 you could have a prayer but now? dream on

[RegieRocker]

31. Still stuck in the loop I see.

[rdking647]

32. so name me 1 viable alternative

just one who has a shot of wining in 2012

[RegieRocker]

39. That depends on you, I and enough people to make it happen

doesn't it.

[rdking647]

42. so name 1 viable candidate

1. it takes enormous money to run a campaign. who can draw the type of money they need.
2. who has the name recognition.

im still waiting for the name of 1 viable candidate.

[RegieRocker]

55. The internet is free. A candidate could easily

win just by it alone. Some one that can pull enough people together to win. Someone that can think outside of the herd mentality, but bring the herd home. It's not me, if that's what your asking. Probably not you either. I do feel that the time is right for a really BIG change in the way things are done. That does include the way We do things. The first step is how and why we vote. Everyone is voting for A or B every time. Same old crap. We follow the media vote for those who are put in front of us and by whom? The Media and either of the two party's. Yea that's the ticket. The amazing thing about this country is WE have the ability to change it. WE are not changing it. Why? Because we are afraid to step out of the box and try something new, something bold and courageous. Nope, it's groundhog day every day over and over again. We need to elect someone that no one has ever heard of. A good person, trustworthy loyal and brave. Fearless. This goes for all our elected officials. Starting from the local level all the way to the top. This person could say they are a Democrat and be a Democrat even if the party says they aren't. I don't need their seal of approval on that matter. I need to believe it myself. You see, the majority of Americans just aren't that brave. They fear losing what they have, therefore they continue on in the same manner as the day, month and year before. They have you by the balls and you let them. What makes those that are put in front of us so special? Have they proved they were that good? Why can't it be a non politician? Someone who is qualified in one area for the job? Someone who is a good speaker and a fast learner? It must be without question, the only people that can be good at being a President, are those that are put before us. Yea right.

[Palmer Eldritch]

65. you go ahead and try to start your own loop. The rest of us will live in the real one.

[defendandprotect]

33. Continue to vote against our own interest or move to the LEFT ... hmmmm....

It is only fear-based thinking which suggests those who want a more liberal

candidate should continue to vote for the lesser evil -- which, btw, only moves

the party and Congress further to the right--~!!

If you've read DU today you know the dam has burst --

And whether here at DU or directly, that's going to mean a great loss of money

for Obama and the Dems -- who will be even more reliant on elite/corporate money --

and more in the debt.

[Lucian]

34. So we're stuck with two amazingly shitty choices.

Either way, we're screwed.

I think what we should do is get a viable, third candidate in there that's better than the two horseshit choices.

We're not limited to two horrible people, despite what you say.

[rdking647]

36. who?

name 1

[Lucian]

54. I'm pretty sure there's better than the two choices.

It's not hard, if you think about it.

[rdking647]

69. who?

[RegieRocker]

43. You can tell it's nightime. The Owls are out.

[Lucian]

51. Just saying what everyone's thinking.

[RegieRocker]

56. It can be whomever you wish. It really is that simple.

Just imagine if everyone thought that way.

[pipi_k]

74. If everyone thought that way...

OK, let's say everyone thought that way

Your alternate candidate probably wouldn't be the same as mine, which wouldn't be the same as my neighbor's, which wouldn't be the same as his brother's, which wouldn't be the same...

So we've got a few million people voting for whomever they think is a good candidate.

The Democrat loses...the Republican wins.

The Republican fucks things up for four or eight years.

Democrats are pissed off and decide to UNITE. They vote in the Democrat they feel is most likely to win. Someone who promises, and ends up disappointing. People get pissed off and vote for an alternate...

And the whole thing starts all over again.

Tell me where things change...

[RegieRocker]

75. Not truer. It could be the same. There is nothing that is logical

which proves otherwise. The point was our choice doesn't have to be what the Media or the two parties give us.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. No. That's Obama's choices. If he wants the votes of the left, he'll leave SS and Medicare alone.

Which will he choose?

[rdking647]

37. if hes smart he will tell the far left to go away

its moderates that decide elections. not the fringes.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. He's doing a pretty good job of alienating the left in favor of the "moderates" and right.

[rdking647]

40. becasue he know that most on the left

are smart enough to realize that staying home is a vote for the rethugs. and if despite that the left does stay home and hands the election to the rethugs the left deserves what it gets.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. So you're going to blame the left if Obama fails to get enough votes?

It's his job as a candidate to appeal to the voters. If he fails to do that, whose fault is it?

BTW Gore lost because "moderate" Democrats chose Bush. They sure as hell didn't choose Nader.

[RegieRocker]

57. We haven't gotten what we deserve for a looooong time.

Are we getting what we deserve now after electing Obama?

[Zavulon]

41. Another "don't complain" thread. Cool.

I love being told that we have to accept subpar performances from our side just because the other side's demonstrably worse.

[rdking647]

44. so whats the alternative

a poor democrat or a disaster from the right.
whats worse a thunderstorm or a category 5 hurricane

[Zavulon]

52. Those are really our two choices?

We can't, say, voice our displeasure and hope that the administration we put into office starts representing us better? We just take whatever we're given or accept a disaster from the right?

If so, why should any Democrat even bother to visit a message board until the right takes over again? You know, if we're all supposed to agree, approve and refrain from any criticism?

[Bluebear]

45. This one adds don't "bitch and moan"

Just to give it some lustre.

[rdking647]

46. and yet the far left cant name 1 viable alternative

[Bluebear]

47. ooooh the "far left". Skeery!

[Zavulon]

50. Yep, that's what made it special to me.

I love the fact that we didn't get single-payer, that Gitmo is still open, all of that cool stuff. I didn't know it until this thread, but now I do.

[Marr]

53. Wow, that'll make an awesome poster. "This or a complete GOP takeover, chump".

How far we've come in 18 months.

You're telling people their choice is between a Democratic president who pushes the GOP's dream agenda, and the actual GOP? Do you really see it that way?

I plan to support populist Democrats at the local and state level, as I always have. They support me in return.

[Morning Dew]

58. I don't HAVE to do shit.

And if this President cuts SS and/or Medicare, I can assure you that I will not be voting for him.

If he goes so far as to act like a Republican, then I'll treat him like one at the polling place.

You can bitch and moan and complain all you want but that is the reality. It may suck but life's a bitch..

[Lasher]

60. I thought the Democratic Party had a presidential primary every 4 years.

Are we skipping it this year?

[Palmer Eldritch]

64. Yes. Now shall we discuss things that might actually happen?

[Lasher]

77. Sure, but me voting for Obama in the Primary isn't one of them.

[Palmer Eldritch]

62. Don't tell them this, they don't like reality. Fantasy is much more fun.

[Chan790]

66. Obama out.

Because everything you've postulated past that is conjectural, not fact. In a vacuum, the only fact is that he has done a poor job and deserves to be removed from office.

You're going to come back with some load of shit "facts", but it's no match for empiricism. You cannot state definitively any future consequence of a current act.

[Major Hogwash]

68. Well, I'll be voting for Obama because there will be 2 Supreme Court appointments in the next few

years that will get this country back on the right track.

I truly believe that.

There's no way that a Tea Party Supreme Court judge would not approve of more corporate control.
And I will NOT allow that to happen in the next election.
No way, no how.

Ted Kennedy would roll over in his grave if he knew how much the Republicans have done to ruin this country since 2009.

This is the price we pay for freedom.
This is the price we pay for having so many racists in this country.
This is the price we pay for having a black President.

So be it.
If I live to be a 110 years old, I will NEVER regret voting for Obama.
The first black President of these United States of America!!!

[boston bean]

71. Sooner or later you end up voting for the same evil, in your scenario.

if you are comfortable with that, well that's your decision.

I for one think it's better to rebuild, versus becoming them.

[rdking647]

72. look what happened in wisconsin

are prepared to have the same thing happen on a national scale?

[Name removed]

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