Maybe for OWS, the time has come for shifts in the fight to hold

[mmonk]

the Park. The problem is where will the people off shift sleep since the strategy against it is to make the movement too uncomfortable to stay.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. Assuming 8 hours shifts

That's 1/3 the numbers at any given time.

What's wrong with dawn to dusk protests? It's not like people are walking by at 2AM to gauge the vitality of the movement.

[mmonk]

3. Again, where do people sleep? Not everyone is a resident.

This is all part of strategy to remove it from existence.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. Then it's a logistics issue

If you have shifts then you still need places for folks to sleep, albeit not all at the same time but as I mentioned the "crowd" presence is diminished because shifts divide the number of people. That division gives the optics that the numbers have faded.

If you want full numbers for maximum visibiity then everyone has to be housed during down time.

You gotta admit, these establishment types got this game wired.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Here is a clue missed

Homeless were given a face and services and some shelter.

Where do they go? Home?

Yes, I heard exactly that conversation the other day

In fact this is one reason OWS is a challenge. It is putting faces to stats.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. That doesn't change the problem of the logisitics

Either divide the presence or find crash pads for everyone.

Where the crowd came from doesn't alleviate the fact they have to be sustained in a situation where the police and local gvoernment have the legal upper-hand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. We will see

You claim it's on death bed.

I can't help you, really I can't.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. I'm not the one who needs help

The people fixated on turning Zucotti park into the next Green Zone are. They have competing challenges of maintaining visible presence vs. allowing people to conduct simple, basic personal maintenance.

People have to sleep, bathe, brush their teeth, eat, etc. If they leave Z-Park then the media breezes past, snaps a few pics and says "Oh look! It's petering out!" Surely, someone supposedly as attenuated to propaganda as you profess to be can understand the potential framing of that narrative.

Personally, I'd advise, assuming the logisitics can be cobbled together, to have full presence during the day with the protesters retiring at night. No one is watching or walking past at night anyway. Business hours are what matter. Maintain the higher numbers as numbers count in public demonstrations. It also deprives the police of their biggest legal bludgeon. I also think such a course would earn a lot more points with middle America.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I will assume you have never, or ever will, go to

Your local occupy. Yes, it matters.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

22. You are in serious denial of any statement that doesn't fit your pre-conceived dialogue

It really is a sign of emotional immaturity when someone makes a point and you completely change course to a atotal non-sequitor. Whether or not I attend an OWS site changes not 1 iota of the fact that the protesters have to care for themselves while maintaining visibility. You're only saying this nonsense as an escape mechanism to avoid the point.

How will you keep up public visibility while making sure the protesters can attend to their personal needs?

That is the point of the OP.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. No, I am trying to drive a point

There is a lense put on by your "liberal" media. It matters to go to the actual source.

This is the Nile tv phenomenon.

There are already cracks in the edifice.

And I will share with you a reality...adapt, overcome. That's what has happened everywhere.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

25. What are you even talking about?

It's a simple proposition requiring a dificult solution -- The OWS folks cannot camp at Z-Park. They can either protest in shifts (reducing their numbers/visibility) or they can protest during business hours for maximum visibility (increasing the need for more places to rest, etc). That is the issue. "Adapt, overcome" doesn't solve that.

Do you have a practical solution or not?

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Adapt, overcome

Each occupation is comming up with specific solutions. What I am talking about is exactly what the media is not reporting and is confounding cops every where.

Multiple routes. As I told you, this is one thing you will have to find out yourself. The press will not feed this to you.

Locally the occupation has files for a tro due to uneven enforcement of municipal codes. There are other things they are doing and the strategizing is way ahead. Plan a, b and c with d in planning as I type.

Suffice it to say they are not conventional, ergo the confounding.

And to find out what your local occupiers are doing, some shoe leather is needed.

Problem is you believe they aren't planning ahead. They are.

Adapt, overcome, not just for the marines any longer.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. I'm not asking the press how to feed and house a few hundred people

I'm asking a brick wa--you. The the Z-Park GA has a solution then OK, but you make these pointless bloviations. Just answer direct questions directly or say, "I don't know." There's no shame in that. Nobody expects you to know everything -- except maybe, you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. I gave you a specific answer from a specific occupation

It is you not reading that.

By the way the threat to the powerful is precisely shining light on issues and giving names and faces to stats

Better admit you are not willing to do this and prefer media narratives...that's cool.

Bu if you ask about NYC, I can't walk there...I told you what San Diego is doing. They are taking this to courts...unequal enforcement of code is major.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

29. Perhaps you're confused on the definition of "specific"

"adapt, overcome" is not "specific." Define HOW OccupySanDiego is adapting. Going to court is good but that can take long time to play-out, longer than people can hold-out without personal maintenance. What happens until the case is resolved?

And please set this tired "media narrative" in the same mass grave as the rest of your dodges. I very explicitly noted that to avoid the media narrative of a dwindling movement it would be wise to not split the protest into shifts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. They have been

When the tents went they stood in shifts. When they were expected to leave due to rain they used tarps. On the whole the wider community has been supporting them with food, socks, showers, medical care and experts for teach ins.

Not that any of this will be covered by media. This is adapting and overcoming. It has a specific meaning. And in spite of the MSM campaign wider community support continues to grow.

I expect NYC and ther occupations to do similar things. I am not there, so I cannot tell you what are the specifics.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

2. That is a good idea but --

the problem becomes finding enough safe houses for them to sleep in when they are off shift. :( Safe houses are currently used here in SF for extra sleep and for showering -- just not enough of them to go around.

I do think shifts is a goal to work towards -- it enables the occupation to continue and yet keeps excuses for the cops to attack at bay. Until they come up with a new excuse. ;)

[brooklynite]

4. Why hold the Park?

The park was symbolic, just as "Wall Street" was symbolic as a target. I think the protestors got too focused on the Park as an "ours vs theirs" issue, and lost their focus on the underlying protests that brought them there.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

6. I think the park is in danger of becoming the new Green Zone n/t

[mmonk]

8. Because they gathered there but it will be the same at any of the parks.

Some tried to move to another and were ousted. They can't sleep or camp on the sidewalks. In Raleigh, we had to ask for volunteers to watch over those that slept on the sidewalk in front of the capital grounds by shifts. This because police changed policy and would not be present for protection at certain hours.

[EFerrari]

10. You hold the park because re-claiming the commons is central

to the movement.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Commons

Public square

At one time people understood this.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. Anti-vagrancy/homeless laws and case precedence pre-date OWS

As do time, place and manner restrictions on protests; just ask the anti-choicers. Fair or not that's the legal environment. Creatures that do not adapt to their environment tend to become extinct through starvation and predators.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. The constitution and the bill of rights precede them

You might, someday, figure it out.

I really can't help.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

20. You should read up on case precedence.

[mmonk]

19. Vagrants aren't protesters seeking redress.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. No, but there is also case precedence for time, place and manner restrictions

to protests. Otherwise anti-choicers would have free rein in front of womens' health centers.

[postulater]

7. They could focus on a different target each day.

Block the employees from getting to work. Use bicycles like the cops to slow traffic.

[mmonk]

11. That might cause the focus to be lost.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. Or not

When it was announced OWS would march on the NYSE the PD shifted.

If OWS shifted every day then every day the PD has to shift with them. It seems that might make the OWS more visible.