Oil is renewable!?????

[SoutherDem]

Today while talking to a typical Republican about climate change I pointed out one day like it or not all of the oil will be gone, that it may not happen in his or my life, but it will run out. His reply was "scientist haven't' proven that more oil isn't being made". Really, I am not joking. Has anyone else heard such a claim. Last number I hear was something like 50 or so years.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Well, sort of.

You just have to wait awhile. A really long while. Really long.

[Possumpoint]

15. Agreed, A Really Long Time

There is a theory that, with plate Teutonics, the sea bed and all its debris and deposits along with water is drug down to the mantel and that in an unoxygen environment is cooked into crude. It is also theorized that trapped water is the reason there is extensive volcanism along the plate rims.

One of the largest fields recently found is about 100 miles east of Brazil 12,000 feet below the water surface and another 15,000 feet below the floor of the ocean. Just what dinosaurs walked there?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. Does "plate Teutonics" refer to the studies of German geologists?

:rofl:

Sorry, just had to play with the fun typo.

[SidDithers]

35. I don't think that's a typo...

It's repeated elsewhere in the thread.

Sid

[mike_c]

27. no....

The problem with making new petroleum goes far beyond the need to wait for long times for biomass to convert to crude. The Earth has changed since those fossil fuel deposits were laid down, and new ones simply are not being created. One can wait forever. No new oil.

The reason we have fossil fuels today is that during one long period in the Earth's biological history terrestrial biomass productivity far outstripped organic decomposition, so after plants (mostly) died, their biomass-- which is energetically rich because it represents the energy they captured via photosynthesis-- accumulated and did not decompose. Eventually those deep accumulations of organic debris were buried by sediments and moved around in the Earth's crust, subjecting them to pressure and aging, which converted many of their constituent biological macromolecules into the simpler, but still energy rich, hydrocarbons we harvest today.

In today's world, there are very few places where the decomposer community can't handily convert that biomass into carbon dioxide and mineral nutrients LONG before geologic processes could convert it to fossil fuels, and sufficient biomass to make new oil doesn't grow in those places anyway, so there won't be any more petroleum when the bit we have runs out, at least not on this planet.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

34. You're right, of course. I was just being a bit sarcastic.

Obviously, even if we had a few million years to wait for more oil to be made, the conditions no longer exist so it just wouldn't happen. But the premise that it's renewable in any way is totally absurd. Even through the efforts of German geologists using plate Teutonics.

:)

[mike_c]

38. yup, but you gave me an opening to respond at the top of the thread...

...instead of way down at the bottom. :rofl:

[Vincardog]

2. He must have been talking about Vegetable Oil

[ChairmanAgnostic]

3. It helps to squeeze dinosaurs like a toothpaste tube.

That way you get the best quality oil, low sulfur content, easily cracked into usable oils and gasoline.

the same people think the universe is 7000 years old, no?

[yellowcanine]

11. I always did like the Sinclair Oil signs.

[Lars39]

4. Which is the plot to Steve Berry's book, "The Emperor's Tomb".

Just finished it. :D

[HereSince1628]

5. There is a fiction out there that geologic, not biologic

processes are involved in the genesis of oil...I'll look at google and see if I can find it.

But THAT is what your R was talking about.

[Recursion]

9. Probably "Deep Hot Biosphere" by Thomas Gold

I've heard him on NPR; he doesn't like that his argument has been oversimplified like that.

[HereSince1628]

13. Yes, Gold is one of them but there is also a Jack Kenney

of something called the Gas Resources Corporation

[HereSince1628]

10. That nonsense is called the abiogenic theory of petroleum origin

It's about as useful as Lysenko's agri-genetics. Sorry on edit had to snip a bit to get in the name of a current proponent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

Abiogenic petroleum origin is a largely abandoned hypothesis that was proposed as an alternative to theory of biological petroleum origin. It was relatively popular in the past, but it went largely forgotten at the end of the 20th century after it failed to predict the location of new wells.<1>

The abiogenic hypothesis argues that petroleum was formed from deep carbon deposits, perhaps dating to the formation of the Earth. Supporters of the abiogenic hypothesis suggest that a great deal more petroleum exists on Earth than commonly thought, and that petroleum may originate from carbon-bearing fluids that migrate upward from the mantle. The presence of methane on Saturn's moon Titan and in the atmospheres of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune is cited<1> as evidence of the formation of hydrocarbons without biology.<2>

The biogenic theory for petroleum was first proposed by Georg Agricola in the 16th century and various abiogenic hypotheses were proposed in the 19th century, most notably by Alexander von Humboldt, the Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev and the French chemist Marcellin Berthelot. Abiogenic hypotheses were revived in the last half of the 20th century by Russian and Ukrainian scientists, who had little influence outside the Soviet Union because most of their research was published in their native languages. The theory was re-defined and made popular in the West by Thomas Gold, who published all his research in English.<1>

<snip>
Astronomer Thomas Gold was the most prominent proponent of the abiogenic hypothesis in the West until his death in 2004.<1> Currently, Jack Kenney of Gas Resources Corporation is a prominent proponent in the West.<9><10><11>
<snip>

[Recursion]

6. There's a book called "The Deep Hot Biosphere"

There was some noise in the late 90s about deep oil replenishing from abiotic hydrocarbon pools in the mantle. I don't know that it's been definitively disproven, but the assays only showed that if this happens, it's not at a rate or a depth that is commercially viable at this point.

So, from a purely theoretical standpoint, your friend is right that it's something of an open question. From a practical standpoint, the known pools seem to be best modeled by the non-replenishable biotic theory.

(Of course, even by the biotic theory, fossil fuels eventually replenish, but over the course of eons.)

[theophilus]

7. Even if it was.....SO WHAT!! We need to stop burning it for energy. Climate change

is eating our lunch AND drinking our milkshake. The stoopid needs to be scrubbed off so many folks.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

8. He's correct only in the most technical sense.

First, you should point out that the burden is not on the scientists to prove that more oil isn't being made, rather the burden is on him (or whatever "scientists" he follows) to prove that it is.

That being said, it stands to reason that as long as there is biological matter subjected to the proper conditions, there are hydrocarbon fuels being made. I think I saw a reference once to the proposition that one ton of the proper precursor matter could produce one barrel of oil in about a half hour. But counting on that to save us is like trying to stay hydrated by drinking the morning dew from a single leaf.

[SidDithers]

12. There'a a theory called abiotic oil that is believed by some people...

Really dumb people, that is.

Sid

[Possumpoint]

17. As I Replied Above

Recenty, a large oil field has been found 100 miles east of Brazil, 12,000 feet below the ocean surface and 15,000 feet below the ocean floor. Just what dinosuarers walked there? Crude oil is and has been generated by Tuetonic Plate action.

Read and learn Sid

[pitohui]

23. what do dinosaurs have to do with anything?

you do realize that there is oil and gas in the permian basin, for example, quite a bit of it

what dinosaurs walked in the permian basin? i'll give you a clue train, zero, since the permian pre-dated the triassic

dinosaurs are hardly the only form of life that ever lived on the old planet earth, there are lots of carbon-bearing life forms that have strutted on this earth and swam her seas, and many of them were, believe it or not, PLANTS

[ChairmanAgnostic]

28. plants that swam her seas. Naw. I prefer the squeezing

of dinosaurs like toothpaste tubes, especially with a 7000 year old universe.

[Denzil_DC]

24. First, it's plate TECTONICS, not "Plate Teutonics"

Second, what have hydrocarbons to do with dinosaurs?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

33. Cue Wagnerian music now.

[TheWraith]

25. Okay, this is a parody, right? Right? Because there's no way you can be serious.

"Teutonic plate action." Right. Is that what you get when Germans get it on on top of the china cabinet?

[mike_c]

29. is this a joke?

You should use the sarcasm thingy when humor is so dry others might mistake it for butt ignorant ramblings. :sarcasm:

[SidDithers]

32. I think you just made my point for me...nt

Sid

[ret5hd]

36. Hahaha! Not only our very own abiogenic proponent, but one who got his understanding...

of the creation of oil from kindergarten!

[tkmorris]

40. Teutonic Plate Oil Generation Theory

I believe it states that crude oil is formed when two Germans have hot sex on the table amongst the dinnerware after a large meal.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

42. Tectonic

and oil did not come from dinosaurs, it came from organic plant matter.

i think you stopped reading at 6th grade, that's the last time I heard anybody say that oil came from dinosaurs

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. Actually, dinosaurs probably did walk there

The South Atlantic Ocean formed from a rift in Gondwanaland, when the land that is now South America and Africa moved apart from each other, having been a continuous piece of land (just as the easternmost section of Africa is currently moving away from the rest of it, with the Great Rift Valley forming between them). This stretches the crust at that point, and it become weaker and subsides. This can form depressions (like the Dead Sea) or shallow sea coasts, where high evaporation causes salt deposition. As the two parts move further apart, the level in the rift becomes lower still, until it is at the abyssal plain level, and consists of the basalt thrown up by a mid-ocean ridge. But the continental rises (such as '100 miles offshore, 12,000 feet below the surface', if your figures are accurate) have, under sediment, rock that once was on the land surface. And, in the case of the Santos Basin, which I suspect is what you're talking about, the salt formed perhaps 120 million years ago - right in the middle of the age of dinosaurs. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_margin
http://blank005.tripod.com/geology/tectonics.html
http://www.earthmoves.co.uk/pdfs/Brazil_salt_Geol_Soc_Sp_Pub.pdf

[ChairmanAgnostic]

31. a hydraulic engineer once explained why

levels of oil do seem to rise after 40-50% of an oil field was emptied. (apparently that is the max you can get without enhanced recovery systems like steam, chemicals, etc.)

When the level is that low, the surrounding rock, which was permeated with high pressure crude, finds itself without any pressure from the oil. Instead, gravity, and the pressure of surrounding shale, rock, etc, permits the oil to drip out raising the prior oil level measurably.

[Terry in Austin]

14. Denialists will not be swayed

They're immune to facts and reason -- they went to a lot of trouble to get that way.

He may have been bringing up the old "abiotic oil" canard that victims of energy desperation sometimes grab onto.

He obviously doesn't understand what scientists do, if he expects them to prove a negative. Actually, they don't ever claim to "prove" anything. Scientific method doesn't work that way.

[SoutherDem]

19. He doesn't understand Scientific Method

My next point was to explain how scientific method works, but we were interrupted, but basically he wants science to prove what he doesn't believe in and disprove what he does believe in (100%) before he will change his mind. More or less exactly what religion wants.

[dionysus]

16. yeah, it's renewable after thousands and thousands and thousands of years...

[tech3149]

18. That's based on the abiotic oil concept

Abiogenic petroleum origin is a largely abandoned hypothesis that was proposed as an alternative to theory of biological petroleum origin. It was relatively popular in the past, but it went largely forgotten at the end of the 20th century after it failed to predict the location of new wells"

"The abiogenic hypothesis argues that petroleum was formed from deep carbon deposits, perhaps dating to the formation of the Earth. Supporters of the abiogenic hypothesis suggest that a great deal more petroleum exists on Earth than commonly thought, and that petroleum may originate from carbon-bearing fluids that migrate upward from the mantle."

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Theory/SustainableOil/

[pitohui]

22. it was popular theory in the old soviet union

and they do appear to have some rather "young" oil but it hasn't proved to be any more renewable than any other oil out there

[itsrobert]

20. Whale Oil?

?

[pitohui]

21. oil is not renewable

not even trees are renewable on the time scale we're using lumber, and you can get a decent hardwood tree in 100 to 200 years or so

there is supposedly some pleistocene oil in russia, so maybe some oil is possible to be formed in 15,000 years but honestly i don't believe it, i would expect 1 million years or more at a minimum and remember you would have to have a wide area for the oil to be deposited and formed that was left to the natural process for all that time, no way that can happen in the modern world, there is no place for new oil to be formed and no land that would be left undisturbed even if you believe oil can be formed in a few thousand years, most of us figure most of the time it takes millions of years to form good quality oil

republicans don't believe in climate change and prefer to believe in bullshit magical theories about public resources because they don't want to be arsed to protect our public resources or our climate, they're pirates here to loot and pillage in the short run

[hifiguy]

30. The reichwing's ignorance of science and its methods

truly boggles the mind and beggars the imagination.

[treestar]

37. I've heard that one from wing nuts too

Rush must have started that one some time ago.

[mike_c]

39. snake oil + hot air mashed under the enormous pressure...

...of Rush Limbaugh's fat sweaty ass produces a greasy substance that conservative republicans find themselves unable to resist. Perhaps if not for their immediate consumption of that resource, it might one day accumulate and provide an alternative, though foul smelling, fuel. However, it's a moot point because republicans lap that shit up faster than it can form butt pustules, let alone significant geologic deposits.

Sorry.

[Scuba]

41. The Republican energy plan has four elements....

1. Burn oil.

2. Burn coal.

3. Burn books.

4. When all the oil is gone, bury everyone in a mass grave, wait 300 million years, then burn THAT oil.