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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 09:22 AM
Original message
Model predicts 'religiosity gene' will dominate society
Model predicts 'religiosity gene' will dominate society

In the past 20 years, the Amish population in the US has doubled, increasing from 123,000 in 1991 to 249,000 in 2010. The huge growth stems almost entirely from the religious culture’s high fertility rate, which is about 6 children per woman, on average. At this rate, the Amish population will reach 7 million by 2100 and 44 million by 2150. On the other hand, the growth may not continue if future generations of Amish choose to defect from the religion and if secular influences reduce the birth rate. In a new study, Robert Rowthorn, emeritus professor of economics at Cambridge University, has looked at the broader picture underlying this particular example: how will the high fertility rates of religious people throughout the world affect the future of human genetic evolution, and therefore the biological makeup of society?

Rowthorn has developed a model that shows that the genetic components that predispose a person toward religion are currently “hitchhiking” on the back of the religious cultural practice of high fertility rates. Even if some of the people who are born to religious parents defect from religion and become secular, the religious genes they carry (which encompass other personality traits, such as obedience and conservativism) will still spread throughout society, according to the model’s numerical simulations.

“Provided the fertility of religious people remains on average higher than that of secular people, the genes that predispose people towards religion will spread,” Rowthorn told PhysOrg.com. “The bigger the fertility differential between religious and secular people, the faster this genetic transformation will occur. This does not mean that everyone will become religious. Genes are not destiny. Many people who are genetically predisposed towards religion may in fact lead secular lives because of the cultural influences they have been exposed to.”

The model’s assumptions are based on data from previous research. Studies have shown that, even controlling for income and education, people who are more religious have more children, on average, than people who are secular (defined here as having a religious indifference). According to the World Values Survey for 82 countries, adults attending religious services more than once per week averaged 2.5 children, those attending once per month averaged 2.01 children, and those never attending averaged 1.67 children. The more orthodox the religious sect, the higher the fertility rate, with sects such as the Amish, the Hutterites, and Haredi having up to four times as many children as the secular average. Studies have found that the high fertility rates stem from cultural and social influences by religious organizations rather than biological factors.

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-religiosity-gene-dominate-society.html
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'm glad I'm in my sixties. Selfish I know. nt
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Not selfish in the least. I am in my
seventies and am glad I will not be around much longer. The future is too forbidding.
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Is it a function of our advanced years...?
I've been feeling the same way. I know every generation thinks the world is going to shit, but our situation might be different. We have several ways of killing off the life on earth, and several ways of making life more difficult for most people on earth, and we seem to be looking for more.

And we seem to be trying to make the movie "Idiocracy" into a documentary.
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Glad I am, too. This shit is depressing. I think the whole human race
has finally gotten to the point that it is too dumb collectively to know what's good for itself, and chaos will result.
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. So, if the cultural and social influences of religious organizations change, ...
then fertility rates will change. That's the weak link.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. The Rapture can't come soon enough - might prevent all this nonsense.
Honestly though - I don't care about the religiosity thing. I do care when you try to force everyone else into it.

Keep your religion to yourself and all will be well.

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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. All you atheists better start screwing! n/t
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Are you saying we need a "quiver" movement?
Edited on Sat Jan-29-11 10:13 AM by woo me with science
:rofl:
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. Computer models are only as good as the information
you put in
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. This assumes that religiosity is based on genetics.
I don't know of any reason to assume that.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Actually, behavioral genetics research suggests a strong heritable component of religiosity.
I think several studies have estimated that heritability approaches 50 percent in adulthood.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. please link those studies. bible pages do not count as studies lol nt
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Heh. You might want to do a little reading
before you leap on me and accuse me of being a creationist. :rofl:

I'm definitely not talking about creationist research. In fact, the people doing this research probably have as much contempt for creationists as you do. Not to be snarky, but you should look up heritability, twins studies, and adoption studies, and you will learn some fascinating information about what behavioral genetics researchers actually do.

Tom Bouchard is at the University of Minnesota and founded the groundbreaking Minnesota Twin Family Study there. This group has produced some of the most important genetics research of the past 30 years, and they are by NO means creationists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Twin_Family_Study

Bouchard TJ Jr, McGue M, Lykken D, Tellegen A. Intrinsic and extrinsic religiousness: genetic and environmental influences and personality correlates. Twin Res. 1999 Jun;2(2):88-98.

Yes, religiosity has an inherited component, as studies are now showing. Much more of our behavior is genetically guided than people would like to admit.



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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. how is "religiosity" defined?
"religiosity" is a term that really has no meaning, it seems to me, but rather provides a way for people to pour their ideological views into a data set and think their definition applies to anyone - which, obviously, it does not.

religiosity - someone who practices yoga and meditates?

someone who finds inexpressible awe in the working of the world?

someone who believes that "loving your neighbor as yourself" means they should adopt a certain political view to create ways to express this?

someone who thinks crystals and aromatherapy provide healing?

someone who thinks music lifts the soul?

can you point out the list of "traits" that have been defined as "religiosity?"

the term itself is so vague as to mean nothing at this point.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I'm sure there is a definition in the studies.
They had to have operationalized it somehow. I don't follow this research closely, but here is a link:

Bouchard TJ Jr, McGue M, Lykken D, Tellegen A. Intrinsic and extrinsic religiousness: genetic and environmental influences and personality correlates. Twin Res. 1999 Jun;2(2):88-98
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I looked around a bit myself
before I had to go out - this paper and other things I was looking at seem to use the Minnesota Twins study carried out in 1990.

The twins, all male and in their early 30s, were asked how often they currently went to religious services, prayed, and discussed religious teachings. This was compared with when they were growing up and living with their families. Then, each participant answered the same questions regarding their mother, father, and their twin.

The twins believed that when they were younger, all of their family members - including themselves - shared similar religious behaviour. But in adulthood, however, only the identical twins reported maintaining that similarity. In contrast, fraternal twins were about a third less similar than they were as children.

"That would suggest genetic factors are becoming more important and growing up together less important," says team member Matt McGue, a psychologist at the University of Minnesota.


So, so far, one measure of "religiosity" would seem to be how often one continues to hew to the religious teaching one received as a child?

Then I saw five categories, as described here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=N6RtrzRvhh8C&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=minnesota+twins+study+religion&source=bl&ots=VcyJhPFy4G&sig=oB-JQt7VfQHG779vYZ1YhCKyPHs&hl=en&ei=AKtETbPsDYWglAeClZAG&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=minnesota%20twins%20study%20religion&f=false

1. religious fundamentalism
2. religious occupational interests
3. religious interest subscale (vocational interest inventory)
4. religious leisure time interests
5. religious values scale

This, of course, still does not provide definitions for the terms - is Calvinist prayer and Buddhist meditation perceived as the same thing when the two belief systems vary so much - as in one presents a monotheistic paternal figure to whom one prays while the other promotes detachment from the material world and embraces the belief that it is not necessary to believe in a god in order to pray/meditate... so I also wonder if all the (male) twins in the study were also all white Calvinists... and if they all hailed from and lived in an area of the country without much cultural diversity...

anyway, was looking around here and there, wondering about the information because, honestly, I have to wonder what it means to claim religion - does that include those religions that believe in ancestor spirits - not a "god" that exists outside of the human scale of life? and if not - how is the study representative of anyone other than the white calvinists living in a sort of mono-cultural petri dish? - if that's what they were?

could "religiosity" mean, cognitively, the human attempt to create meaning in random patterns is the same as a religious belief? and if not, why not? and wouldn't the human attempt to fit into a culture would be part of this cognitive processing - esp. a mono-culture?

The God Gene talks about "religiosity" as "self-transcendance" vs. self-absorption. That doesn't describe anything religious, per se. That could also be the experience of taking LSD, for example. So, do those who ingested LSD at some point and felt more connected to their fellow humans b/c of have a comparable religiosity "gene" as those who attend a church that insists on a set of doctrinal positions? or is "self-transcendence" a measure of "leisure time" activities that relate to religious institutions only.

A number of studies have suggested that religious tendencies are related to our genetic endowment. Twin studies, like the University of Minnesota twin studies3, suggest that there is a genetic contribution to the likelihood of church attendance or the tendency to have self-transcendent experiences.4 Consistent with these twin studies, studies comparing actual genes and behavior have found a correlation between the presence of a gene variant called VMAT2 and a self-report test of self-transcendence.5 The presence of this gene was significantly correlated with the subscale of the test measuring “self-forgetfulness”, but was less well correlated with scales involving transpersonal identification or mysticism. A similar correlation has been found between measures of self-transcendence and a genetic marker for the dopamine transport molecule. 6 One geneticist claimed that such results are an indication of genetic determination of brain wiring specifically subserving religiousness.7 However, there is nothing in the measures that might not also be related to non-religious self-transcendence or self-forgetfulness in other domains of life, and it is as yet unknown all that these genes might influence in other non-religious psychological and social domains.

http://www.issr.org.uk/neuroscience-of-religion.asp

...neurological disorders, like epilepsy, also factor into the experience of "communion with the divine" and/or "self-transcendence" and hallucinatory experiences that are categorized as "religious." what is the heritability in twins for epilepsy and other disorders and how would that relate to a study generalizing about religious experience... and, again, would identical twins be more likely to have the same brain abnormalties - rather than fraternal twins?

just some questions this whole assertion raises for me.

I would like for those who make this claim to state what the term means - because, again, at this time it means whatever someone wants it to mean - even when people use the studies while talking about the issue.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
15. No problem.
They're the one's who will be eagerly boarding "God's Silver Chariots to Heaven..."
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to be taken away as food for the Lizard People.
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The rest of us -- the atheists, the skeptics, the heretics, the agnostics, etc. -- will be hiding, thinking their "God" looks a little too much like Colonel Sanders.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. Junk Science Alert!!!
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. How can science be junk?
I thought all science was based on fact and studies, etc?

If someone questions a scientific ideal does that mean they hate science?

I just recently learned that the universe is older than I was told before and that dinosaurs lived almost a million years after the impact that was said to have wiped them out - if someone questioned those things before I would gather that they would be laughed at (we have facts, here they are - question them and you are crazy).

Could it be that science is still (in some areas) still in it's infancy? And if so, is someone who does not want to accept those views a wacko?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. There is data, and then there in interpreting the data.
The notion that "religiosity" (which is NOT the same thing as being a "spiritual" person, but has more to do with having an authoritarian personality) is mostly genetic is also questionable
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. "religiosity gene"? wtf?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
21. This sounds like horseshit to me.
Nothing personal.
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