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Meta-analysis shows that marijuana use is possibly linked with earlier onset of psychosis.

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:22 PM
Original message
Meta-analysis shows that marijuana use is possibly linked with earlier onset of psychosis.
Edited on Mon Feb-07-11 07:27 PM by originalpckelly
Let me qualify the following study. I do this because I know some people have set conclusions in their mind one way or the other about marijuana. The following is not intended to form a diagnosis or medical advice, it is standard scientific method.

This is not just a regular study. It's a meta-analysis of many different studies, though from the article we do not gain insight into their various methodologies. In this case, if their methodologies are not somehow flawed, this meta-analysis may demonstrate a duplication of a conclusion across many different studies. Duplication is important in science because it shows that there is really something there. As long as there isn't some type of consistent flaw in the methodology of the study, that would across studies influence the conclusions of it, it means you should probably take note of it.

This does not apply to the general population, but among a specific population of individuals with schizophrenia. It does not appear to mention other chronic mental illnesses where psychosis may be present such as bipolar disorder with psychotic features, schizoaffective disorder, or major depression with psychotic features, among other psychotic illnesses. I think the articles' implication that all psychosis is somehow related to schizophrenia is profoundly misinformed. So that's a mark against the article.

So, with that said, here is the article:
"Many studies have linked marijuana use with early onset of psychosis. The question is, does smoking marijuana cause earlier psychosis? A new review of 83 studies involving more than 22,000 participants seeks an answer.

The meta-analysis found that people who smoked marijuana developed psychotic disorders an average 2.7 years earlier than people who did not use cannabis. But the review also found that people who used any illegal drug suffered psychosis two years earlier than non-users, not a large difference.

While alcohol use was not associated with early onset, the studies reviewed could not rule out the influence of cigarette smoking, which is a common habit of people with psychotic disorders and those who smoke marijuana. In many of the countries from which the data was gathered, in fact, cannabis is typically smoked mixed with tobacco. The researchers argue that cigarette smoking—unlike marijuana— does not worsen hallucinations or paranoia in patients with schizophrenia, so they believe that tobacco does not account for earlier onset."

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/02/07/marijuana-linked-with-earlier-onset-of-schizophrenia-in-research-review/#ixzz1DJyKy9Sb

What this might mean, is that the argument that marijuana is somehow less dangerous than alcohol, is probably not accurate. Psychosis is quite serious, I know first hand. It can lead you to do all types of embarrassing things, and even in some unfortunate and tragic circumstances, can lead to law breaking or suicide. More than 40,000 people kill themselves every year, and while I don't know the breakdown of that number into psychosis related suicides, I bet there are enough to merit concern.

As a matter of public policy, we the people must be informed, so articles like these are helpful to us.

As a matter of common sense, it might be wise just to steer clear of marijuana if someone in your family has schizophrenia. The article goes further to state that people with any relative with a psychotic illness should steer clear too.

Is that really bad advice? Just common sense, really. You don't need to do pot to survive if you're not suffering in some way from cancer or chronic pain, or one of the other actual medicinal uses of marijuana.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It's kind of serious though.
This is a public policy website. While we might lessen the offense of marijuana possession to drug rehab or something, and selling it to something minor, or simply removing the marijuana from their custody and teaching them how to be entrepreneurs in another field.
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
38. How about legalize it and put a warning label on the packaging?
DO NOT USE IF YOU HAVE SCHIZOPHRENIA

What percentage of the general cheeba-smoking population would this affect? If its under 1 percent of the population then there is no compelling argument to prohibit people that don't have psychosis producing illness from using it responsibly.

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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
69. there was also a meta analysis that showed mj does not cause psychosis or schizophrenia
Edited on Tue Feb-08-11 12:36 PM by RainDog
Roger Pertwee, who is the leading cannabis researcher and pharmacologist in the UK, called for legalization precisely because there is no causal link.

Roger Pertwee, professor of neuropharmacology at Aberdeen University, will on Tuesday tell the British Science Festival in Birmingham that making cannabis available from licensed outlets would reduce drug-related crime and cut the risk of users moving on to more dangerous drugs.

“At the moment cannabis is in the hands of criminals,” he will say. “We are allowed to drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes. Cannabis, if it is handled properly, is not going to be more dangerous.”

Although research has shown cannabis may increase the risk of developing schizophrenia in particularly vulnerable individuals, this danger does not apply to the general population, he will say. The risk could be reduced by setting a minimum age of 21 for consuming cannabis or requiring individuals to obtain a licence to buy it.


(this is from an article at the Financial Times - behind a subscription wall, but it's free to reg.)

Some people cannot drink alcohol because they are at risk for alcoholism. The general population, however, is not. We do not make alcohol illegal because a small subset of the population is at risk.

The health and medical benefits of cannabis make another case for legalization - beyond the fact that only a small percentage of the population may be at risk from use. (The risk of psychological addiction to mj has been factored at 1% of the population - again, a tiny subset of the general population and not sufficient reason to keep cannabis illegal for the general population. The risk of physical addiction is virtually nil.)

While those who are at risk of schizophrenia (based upon family history) should not use cannabis, there is no danger for developing schizophrenia in the general population b/c of cannabis use.

If those who are at risk want to procure cannabis, they will whether it is illegal or not. On the other hand, those who are not at risk face outrageous legal penalties if they choose to use a substance that is safer than alcohol.

The argument that cannabis may create an earlier onset of psychosis or schizophrenia is no argument to keep cannabis illegal - it simply means that those who are at risk can and should use such information to guide their decisions about life choices and not use cannabis. However, just as those with family members who are alcoholics would be wise not to indulge in alcohol as a precautionary measure - a history of family members does not absolutely indicate someone will be an alcoholic - nor does a family history absolutely indicate someone will be a schizophrenic.

The issue of cannabis legalization isn't just about the small subset of the population that may be at risk for mental illness, tho - it's about the entire population - the general population, that has no risk of such issues and yet is denied the right to grow and use a relatively harmless and oftentimes useful plant.

no causal link

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2009/09/01/2673334.htm

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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Alerted for trying to lump all DUers together!
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. I bet if I posted a smoking thread it'd be getting a shitload of recs.
Just sayin'.
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Rageneau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. Anyone who can actually "read" can see that this "evidence' is hooey.
Not one scientific conclusion was put forward in this article. And the gloomy warning that the article supposedly contained is itself nonsense. All this article actually said is that people who were going to turn out to be schizophrenic anyway, MIGHT (possibly, maybe, perhaps) demonstrate the onset of that disease at a slightly earlier age if they smoked marijuana. The article does NOT say that schizophrenia is linked to pot in ANY way.

Unfortunately, people whose minds are made up against marijuana will see whatever they want to see in articles like this. They would see marijuana causing leprosy in the shapes of clouds, if that's what they went looking for.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. Minimal Relationship Between Cannabis And Schizophrenia Or Psychosis Suggested By New UK Study
Last year the UK government reclassified cannabis from a class C to a class B drug, partly out of concerns that cannabis, especially the more potent varieties, may increase the risk of schizophrenia in young people. But the evidence for the relationship between cannabis and schizophrenia or psychosis remains controversial. A new study has determined that it may be necessary to stop thousands of cannabis users in order to prevent a single case of schizophrenia.

Scientists from Bristol, Cambridge and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine took the latest information on numbers of cannabis users, the risk of developing schizophrenia, and the risk that cannabis use causes schizophrenia to estimate how many cannabis users may need to be stopped to prevent one case of schizophrenia. The study found it would be necessary to stop 2800 heavy cannabis users in young men and over 5000 heavy cannabis users in young women to prevent a single case of schizophrenia. Among light cannabis users, those numbers rise to over 10,000 young men and nearly 30,000 young women to prevent one case of schizophrenia.

That's just part of the story. Interventions to prevent cannabis use typically do not succeed for every person who is treated. Depending on how effective an intervention is at preventing cannabis use, it would be necessary to treat even higher numbers of users to achieve the thousands of successful results necessary to prevent a very few cases of schizophrenia.

Matt Hickman, one of the authors of the report published last week in the scholarly journal Addiction, said that "preventing cannabis use is important for many reasons - including reducing tobacco and drug dependence and improving school performance. But our evidence suggests that focusing on schizophrenia may have been misguided. Our research cannot resolve the question whether cannabis causes schizophrenia, but does show that many people need to give up cannabis in order to have an impact on the number of people with schizophrenia. The likely impact of re-classifying cannabis in the UK on schizophrenia or psychosis incidence is very uncertain."

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/168519.php

Interesting, no?




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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. While I do have adverse reaction to pot...I would never...ever...ever...ever...
say it is worse than alcohol..which will lull me into liver failure and never make me question if it makes me insane.....which I would be to let alcohol destroy my liver...
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here_is_to_hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. How about we all live our
own lives and let those lives lead where they may?
IOW...I could give a rats ass about another study, an opinion, a finding, a set of circumstances that simply may or may not apply to me.
I have other things to do.
Like burn one down.
Thanks for your concern though.
Noted.

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. But if something's bad for you, why not at least avoid it?
If you're not addicted to pot, why not just give it up? Schizophrenia is a very debilitating illness, and it's extremely expensive to treat. Even if you don't kill yourself, your life will be shorter because of it. The life expectancy of all severely mentally ill people is lower than that of the general population, even excluding suicide. It fucking sucks for me, I'm not schizophrenic, but I'm bipolar with psychotic features. Means my life will be shorter than a normal persons.
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here_is_to_hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Because I am not mentally ill, I am free
to make my own decisions.
And weed is not addictive...and stop saying you, your.
I am me, not you.
Good luck, sorry life turned out to be so shitty.
Hope you are at least happy that mine is so good.
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Or..
Or you are the victim of a label and you just jump on the excuse. What's your sleep like?
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. It is apparently bad for you. Don't do it. And mind your own.
People have used marijuana as medicine and for recreation since the dawn of time. I think it requires mental illness to believe that the effects of such a substance are not very well known to us as humans.
Some people can not even eat a peanut! Bad for them. Not for me. See how that works?
Imagine, no peanuts! Poor things.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
37. I was once diagnosed as schizophrenic
but I wasn't. I did have mild ADD though.

The medical profession is a very inexact science and other than what they can do in the way of alleviating immediate pain is commendable, they are really groping around in the dark much more than the adoring public might imagine.

Think bronchitis and antibiotics. For years when a youngster I was treated with antibiotics for bronchitis. Then I became allergic to penicillin because I had received so much in the course of treating bronchitis.

Bronchitis turns out to be a virus and all any antibiotic can do is treat some of the other symptoms that come with the virus.

Schizophrenia turns out to be ADD.

Go figure.



Hands off my Social Security!
Hands off Latin America!


rdb
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. No, schizophrenia doesn't turn out to be ADHD.
Just because you were misdiagnosed, doesn't mean that it's not a serious illness that the nation must address.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
75. I had a terrible vomiting experience...
I vomited so much my stomach and esophagus bled! That's what led me to the doctor, the bleeding. He thought I had an ulcer he put me through some horrible GI tests. Turns out, I was pregnant! @&%@#)$*@ doctor could have really screwed my baby up! But I'm fairly certain the ulcer didn't turn into a fetus.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
5.  this story resurfaces about every 6 months
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. And so do stories about the positive effects of marijuana.
I bet cancer links with cigarette use surfaced every six months, and I bet people said the same dismissive shit about it.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I think we all have pretty much accepted that cigarettes cause cancer...
I've never, ever seen "dismissive shit" about this on DU. Never.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. DU didn't exist when there was still debate about the health effects of smoking.
You might be able to go back on earlier message boards and find it, though.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. The InterTubes didn't exist then either...
And the only people saying cigarettes were safe were the tobacco companies. This debate started in the late sixties... advertising was banned on US TV in the early 70's as I recall.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. I think everyone knew smoking was bad for you long, long ago
Well, everyone except the PR departments of tobacco companies.

People have been calling cigarettes "coffin nails" and "cancer sticks" ever since they were invented.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
40. No, unlike the bunk described in the article there are
actually people that were and are dying all around us from tobacco caused lung cancer.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

You know, I just don't see the deaths documented here, nor any overload at psych wards and mental hospitals, knowing how many tens of millions are using cannabis.

What's with the onslaught of care trolls and cannabis today?

These scare stories fly in the face of the real world and make folks look silly.


Cannabis will get you through times of no money better than money can get you through times of no cannabis.




rdb
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
62. I thought this was a retread.
Thanks for confirming.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. "the studies reviewed could not rule out the influence of cigarette smokin"
Edited on Mon Feb-07-11 07:33 PM by napoleon_in_rags
As a long time mental health worker, I gotta step in here and parrot the oft forgotten truth: Correlation is not causation. Its true for instance you see a lot of (tobacco) smoking in people with psychotic disorders, but its a way to escape from the stress of the disorder. I wouldn't be surprised to see marijuana filling a similar role, a way for people to escape, to get out of their heads for a minute. But calling that escape the cause is putting the horse before the cart. It could be like noting the correlation between taking aspirin and headaches, and then assuming that taking aspirin must cause headaches, when it is in fact headaches which cause people to take aspirin.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Agreed, these people might be self-medicating.
I personally wish we had a better system to monitor the development of the illness, like an eye test or a hearing test, there should be a standard mental health evaluation for every student every year. Mental health is as important as sight and hearing for learning. I know first hand.

And if a problem is found, treat that kid automatically, make a rejection of treatment an opt-out deal.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. You're right. It could make a world of difference for so many people.
Not just the extremely ill, but the mildly ill. I had a terrible time in school, due to mental health issues I had which understand much better today. Just a little support at the right times could have made a world of difference.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. "when it is in fact headaches which cause people to take aspirin"
The ol' chicken/egg deal. Yep. My mom was a psych nurse, and we have a schizophrenic family member... not one of my pot smoking relatives have succumbed to the disease, thankfully. Every time this relative goes off her meds, she ends up in a facility to get her meds straight again... and I have to walk through the smoking area... I was at first astounded at the number of patients smoking cigarettes, then my mom explained it to me just as you did now, and it makes a lot of sense.

There is an age range wherein these things generally pop up, and it happens to be the same age range that kids start experimenting with drugs. I think too many conclusions have been drawn based on this coincidence.

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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. in the past the age range thing lead to associations drawn
between sexuality and mental illness. So there you go.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #32
65. That's one of the many reasons I fear testing for all...
What if a kid has a hormone jump? It's a well known fact that we all react to hormones. And some kids can hide their sexuality fairly well until puberty, regardless of that sexuality. Seems there's too much old-school thinking... all those hysterical menopausal women in need of hystericalectomies!
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
10. Most schizophrenics smoke cigarettes too...
But what you have here is a chicken/egg scenario that has yet to be clearly defined, let alone proven. An "earlier" onset is still an onset and there is no way to prove that an individual would NEVER have experienced the onset of mental illness.

It just so happens that the onset of many psychosis is the same age range wherein people experiment with such things.

I have a family member with schizophrenia, and the rest of us do or have smoked a ton of pot. No one else "caught" the schizophrenia. But that is anecdotal, and shouldn't be considered I guess.

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. It is anecdotal, just like someone saying they "caught" the schizophrenia while using pot.
Only a scientific study using statistical analysis can provide sound data upon which to form conclusions.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Yep... and that hasn't been done yet. eom
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
71. actually, that study has been done. Cannabis use does not cause schizophrenia
Edited on Tue Feb-08-11 12:26 PM by RainDog
http://www.health.am/psy/more/cannabis_use_does_not_cause_schizophrenia/

That study was done in 2006.

Schizophrenia affects approximately 1% of the population. That percentage has not increased with the increase in cannabis use.

It's absurd to make a substance illegal that only impacts 1% of the population that may develop an illness whether or not they use such a substance.

The study on schizophrenia is for this tiny subset which is already a portion of the population that is more likely (twice as likely) to use cannabis as the general population - while it is currently illegal.

The information about early onset is useful for those who are at risk of schizophrenia - that 1% - to help them make a decision not to use cannabis but it doesn't mean they will not develop this illness anyway.

this Time article mentions some of the studies but doesn't supply links.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2005559,00.html
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Peanuts do about as much damage...
And I don't see a big deal made about peanuts making people crazy.

Thanks for the article.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
41. Please see #34 above herein
Minimal Relationship Between Cannabis And Schizophrenia Or Psychosis Suggested By New UK Study


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/168519.php



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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. ONE and I mean ONE study...
Edited on Mon Feb-07-11 09:18 PM by originalpckelly
when there are 83 studies a part of this meta-analysis.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
72. your information is incorrect. there was a meta analysis that showed no correlation
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2009/09/01/2673334.htm

Previous research has suggested cannabis use increases the risk of being diagnosed with schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders.

This latest study, led by Dr Martin Frisher of Keele University, examined the records of 600,000 patients aged between 16 and 44, but failed to find a similar link.

Frisher and colleagues compared the trends of cannabis use with general practitioner records of schizophrenia.

They argue if cannabis use does cause schizophrenia, then an increase in cannabis use should be followed by an increase in the incidence of schizophrenia.

According to the study, cannabis use in the UK between 1972 and 2002 has increased four-fold in the general population, and 18-fold among under-18s.

...But the researchers found no increase in the diagnosis of schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders during that period. In fact some of the data suggested the incidence of these conditions had decreased.

"This study does not therefore support the specific causal link between cannabis use and the incidence of psychotic disorders," the authors say. "This concurs with other reports indicating that increases in population cannabis use have not been followed by increases in psychotic incidence."


and this:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091022101538.htm

Scientists from Bristol, Cambridge and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine took the latest information on numbers of cannabis users, the risk of developing schizophrenia, and the risk that cannabis use causes schizophrenia to estimate how many cannabis users may need to be stopped to prevent one case of schizophrenia. The study found it would be necessary to stop 2800 heavy cannabis users in young men and over 5000 heavy cannabis users in young women to prevent a single case of schizophrenia. Among light cannabis users, those numbers rise to over 10,000 young men and nearly 30,000 young women to prevent one case of schizophrenia.

and this:

there is not "pot-induced" schizophrenia - it's just schizophrenia

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/11/03/us-pot-induced-psychosis-idUSTRE4A26JV20081103?feedType=RSS&feedName=healthNews&rpc=22&sp=true

In a previous study, Arendt and colleagues found that nearly half of people who had an episode of cannabis-induced psychosis went on to develop schizophrenia within the next six years. In the current study, the researchers looked at the genetic roots of both conditions by comparing the family histories of 609 people treated for cannabis-induced psychosis and 6,476 who had been treated for schizophrenia or a related psychiatric condition.

They found that individuals treated for post-pot smoking psychotic episodes had the same likelihood of having a mother, sister or other "first-degree" relative with schizophrenia as did the individuals who had actually been treated for schizophrenia themselves. This suggests that cannabis-induced psychosis and schizophrenia are one and the same, the researchers note. "These people would have developed schizophrenia whether or not they used cannabis," Arendt explained in comments to Reuters Health.

Based on the findings, the researcher says, "cannabis-induced psychosis is probably not a valid diagnosis. It should be considered schizophrenia."


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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
80. Just because it isn't repeatable doesn't mean it might not be true...
there is no arguing with the drug warrior crowd. So what if this one 'meta-data' study's results cannot be replicated with other data sets? So what if the study couldn't get tobacco out as a correlative factor? So what if there is no direct data that supports the thesis and plenty that falsifies it? So what if the real and substantial harm from Law Enforcement Impairment Disorder can be cured tomorrow? Somebody is getting high!
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
11. .
:smoke:
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. hey, move over there!
i'll join ya :smoke:
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. Pass the Dutchie . . .
on the left hand side . . .

:smoke:
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. Don't bogart that joint my friend.
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DisgustipatedinCA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. let's say this oft-repeated assertion is completely true
If so, does that mean that those who have tendencies toward psychosis get an earlier onset of that psychosis than they would have without marijuana, but the psychosis was imminent, i.e., it was going to happen sooner or later? If so, all hail the wonder drug marijuana. Not only is it good for a whole host of conditions, but now it permits early treatment regimes for people with psychosis. I'm not making light of psychosis, by the way. I'm making light of this old and tired claim.

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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. Life under Republican/Corporate Rule gives me psychosis...
High unemployment... un-ending useless wars.. skyrocketing food prices.. $4 gasoline.. Charter Schools... TSA strip searches...Social Security cuts... no health insurance...

It's enough to drive a person crazy....

:silly:
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
25. Until you control for sleep deprivation
Edited on Mon Feb-07-11 08:00 PM by nebenaube
any study regarding psychosis is probably bunk. And I mean actual proportions of sleep architecture as well as total sleep time.
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Mojeoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. Where are the "pot psychosis" emergency room entry numbers??
"The cannabis-sensitive patients not only developed psychosis nearly three years earlier than patients who were unaffected by the drug, but they also had three times the number of close relatives with psychotic disorders."

Well thank you Time Magazine for this insightful (NOT) article.

??????So if you have a family with a lot of schizophrenia, you will probably get schizophrenic,in about 2 years, but if you smoke pot you'll get schizophrenic, in two weeks.?????

Also, how many teenagers in junior high are aware of their schizophrenic relatives?

This post is drivel.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. Ask someone with actual schizophrenia if they would appreciate a few more good years.
I think they'll tell you they'd do anything for them, if they could do it.
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Mojeoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. The science is non-existant and the relationship to this mental illness is foolish
Foolish and dangerous. We've all known people who do NOT handle the psycho-active experience at all.
This is like saying that people who eat Idaho Potatoes can make you schizophrenic.
If you step on a crack you break your mother's back.
This is soft cheese science, unworthy of DU.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #50
58. No, your statement is a bunch of bullshit.
It defies common sense that individuals who are already sensitive to psychosis would not in some way be harmed by a psychoactive DRUG, and that's what MJ is, being administered to them in a haphazard way.

No, it's not. I bet Idaho Potatoes don't have a well known psychoactive substance in them that alters one's brain chemistry.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
29. Fine. So put a warning label on it and legalize it.
There is a real and serious and obvious and ENTIRELY ARTIFICIAL risk associated with all marijuana use: incarceration and legal impairment disorder. How about we get rid of the real risks first?
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
30. Isn't this for people who are predisposed and use cannabis at a very young age?
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
31. So make your argument. You say alcohol is safer for those with
mental illness, or for everybody? You need to at least show that alcohol has been shown to have no impact on those with predisposition to mental illness. You say it is safe for them to guzzle alcohol, which I see as a poison, and do not use.
This article makes the rounds regularly here. Does schizophrenia make for memory issues? Same old article. Most folks don't use it to push alcohol as safe. That is a new touch. I assume you drink, but don't like pot?
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. Odd how an article that WAS POSTED TODAY...
has made the rounds before. Maybe if it's always around, you should pay a little attention to it?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
36. I'd like to make a couple of comments about this study...
...and I want to preface them by saying that I am both a professional scientist-- a biologist-- and a medical marijuana user who smokes every day and has for decades. So I have one foot on both sides of this fence, in a sense.

First, I think the conclusion is ambiguous. As the OP points out, the participants of the study were all folks in whom psychosis emerged REGARDLESS of their marijuana use. The data do support the conclusion that marijuana use hastened the onset of symptoms among some participants, but it is also consistent with possibility that psychotics experiencing their own developing symptoms are more likely to self medicate, and they are more likely to do that as the onset of symptoms looms closer-- i.e. they are much more likely to experience early symptoms themselves before they manifest noticeably for others.

Second, the lack of association between alcohol and early onset of symptoms is curious enough to require further attention, and perhaps odd enough to call the entire meta-analysis into question.

Finally, although meta-analysis is a good way to find patterns that one might not have seen in each individual study-- emergent properties of cross-study synthesis, essentially-- it is only as good as the data from the original studies, and cannabis research is often skewed intentionally toward politically favored outcomes, making me question the sources of data for the meta-analysis.

Still, I think this study suggests that schizophrenics might want to decrease their use of medical marijuana if they experience the early signs of symptom onset. The rest of us should not be affected. :smoke:
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
39. I'm always leery of meta-studies
I understand the methodology involved, honestly I do. But meta-studies always feel to me as if either:

A) a doctoral candidate can't come up with an original idea or
B) somewhere there's a professor with pressure to publish and access to google.

I know that's not fair and that there's probably nothing wrong with the OP's referenced study, but that's how metastudies always feel to me.
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #39
54. I think: "We didn't get enough takers for this inane idea the first 30 times


so let's repackage it and try once more."

Safety in numbers and all that...


The one relative of my generation with schizophrenia was into alcohol and cocaine - then meth - above all else - alcohol most of all.

An older member of the family also chose alcohol.

That's all i've witnessed of any substance abuse/schizophrenia connection.

I'm going with the aspirin/headache model above...


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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. Except that you take aspirin AFTER you have a headache.
It would be interesting to study whether or not these individuals began their use of pot in the prodromal phase of the disease.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #59
73. Schizophrenics are twice as likely as the general population to use cannabis
whether it is legal or not.

70% of the population has used cannabis, yet only 1% of the population is affected by this illness. the rate of schizophrenia has remained flat while the use of cannabis has increased.

These are the numbers that matter in this issue.

I do have compassion for those who suffer from this illness and would most definitely recommend that those who are at risk not use cannabis.

However, knowing that a tiny subset of the population is at risk does not in any way impact the overall issue of the general safety of cannabis use as well as the proven benefits of cannabis use for other subsets of the population - those with MS and CP, those undergoing chemotherapy, those with glaucoma - cannabis has saved lives, eyesight and improved the daily lives of people with degenerative diseases.

So, do you think this substance should be denied to that part of the population because another part of it has a potential risk - even when those at risk are already twice as likely to use this substance whether it is legal or not?

Such a position makes no sense at all to me.
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
47. There is absolutely no debate. Alcohol causes more problems than weed. Its not subject to opinion.
The "cause of death" numbers alone obliterate any notion that alcohol is safer than marijuana. How many people have died from "marijuana poisoning" vs "alcohol poisoning"? (psst its none versus a shit load) How many people have been hospitalized for near fatal delirium tremors caused by alcohol withdrawal vs marijuana withdrawal (psst, its a shit load versus none).
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-07-11 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
48. Which is why schizophrenics shouldn't use marijuana.
And this is the ONLY problem that has been found with marijuana so far. Still sounds a lot better than cigarettes and alcohol.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #48
60. Yeah, I'm gonna say that it's probably not a good idea...
to set something on fire then inhale the smoke from it, mmmkay?
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Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #60
76. And I'll say it's probably not a good idea
to have people arrested who don't agree with that opinion
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ReggieVeggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
51. excuse me, but...Time?
If they published a political article something tells me you wouldn't accept their conclusions quite so readily.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
52. What, you mean, illicit substances are, like, harmful n'stuff?
I thought they were kind of like vitamins. Good fer ya, really, especially in small doses.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #52
77. Legal substances are harmful to some people, too.
whether a substance is illegal or legal has no bearing on its safety.

aspirin is more lethal than cannabis.

...but aspirin has many useful features for some people when used correctly.

iow, to try to pretend that the legality or illegality of something has anything useful to say about that substance is total and complete bullshit - but for people who want to remain ignorant about the relative value of one substance or another - this appears to be a compelling argument for them - which is, frankly pitiful.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
53. As is stated, people who used any illegal drug developed psychosis earlier.
But not alcohol? This doesn't make any sense if we are going to try and blame a substance for triggering psychosis earlier than normal. I would think environment and stress were bigger contributing factors, as people who tend to experiment with illegal drugs at an early age generally have more difficult issues in their lives, and any onset of symptoms would only compound those difficulties.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. and legal tobacco was another correlative factor
that 'couldn't be ruled out' and so consequently was 'swept under the rug'.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. You know, Alex, I'll take drugs that work at different receptor sites for $1,000.
Ethanol:
acetylcholine, GABA, serotonin (5-HT), NMDA

THC, one of many of the cannabinoids in marijuana binds to:
CB1, CB2, and μ1

Totally different receptors are involved in these two drugs, therefore one would expect totally different results from them. A lot of other drugs fool around with the serotonin receptors or dopamine receptors in our brains.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #61
78. All illegal drugs, plus tobacco, correllate to early psychosis according to the article
All illegal drugs plus tobacco effect different receptor sites. That's why it doesn't make sense, to me, to try and tie it to the active ingredients in marijuana.

Nicotine and THC affect the brain differently, yet they both correlate to early psychosis.

People who use those two drugs, or other illegal drugs, at a young age tend to have rocky personal lives to begin with. Which indicates that their environment is triggering the early psychosis, and which we already know can trigger early psychosis.

In my view it makes more sense to see the use of illegal drugs, or tobacco, at an early ages as evidence of the person being subjected to abnormal environmental stresses which would only be made worse by any oncoming symptoms of schizophrenia.

I would guess that alcohol didn't correlate because it is so ubiquitous to begin with, and young people tend to consume it regardless of the state of their personal lives.

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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
56. schizoaffective disorder is a pre-existing condition
if you are schizoaffective, then smoking can trigger (just like stress triggers) the illness.

No one who is not already schizoaffective can become so by smoking pot.
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RegieRocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
57. Marijuana should be given to all to help diagnose if someone has
psychosis. Could this be the reason for those not wanting it legalized? Are they subconsciously afraid of others finding out about their psychosis?
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #57
79. well said..
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
63. ,,
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
64. This has zero credibility.
By your own accounting, this is a "meta-analysis of many different studies."

Here, here's some more studies for you:

http://www.scientificfactsofpot.com/studies.htm

Mind you, they're not "meta-analysis" but I think they'll suffice.

Oh yeah, unrec for trying to pass this off as science.
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Moostache Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Joining in Un-rec of OP (n/t)
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. What Le Taz Said!
I unrec'd too.
GAC
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
66. Your Position Is Abundantly Clear
Finding a study that supports your contention is just par for the course. The study shows a potential link. The very use of that word means the data is less than abundantly clear. Hence, the person who would seem to need the lecture on what constitutes good science would be you.
GAC
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Bennyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-11 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
67. ya know this may be true...>BUT....
I like to look at it this way... how many people who puffed the herb would be totally off their fucking rockers without it?

:holds up mirror looks at self:

My dad was psycotic way before he ever puffed weed. he did go fast and hard. Flat our dangerous the last five years of his life...at 84. The funny thing was, the only time he ever calmed down and as even remotely pleasant was those 30 minutes of the day when he would get high. He would smile, maybe even laugh and be alright. When he was straight was when he was dangerous.

He puffed since the 70's, (told everyone since the 40's but he was not hip enough to have done that). He hardly puffed though. he only smoked for a few hours of the day (unlike some people I know :points finger at self:). he used weed, like everything esle in his life as a weapon, a way to use people. And to get his hip card punched.

but he was one of the early ones. Just now are we getting to the end of life stories of some of the long term cannabis smoker.

What is funny is, i went to my dispensary the other day and I was the youngest person in there!.....
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