Is it common that billionaires are born from honest business-people?

[Syrinx]

I can't really think of any.

Bill Gates, for example, is a slug, honesty-wise.

The Koch brothers got their money the old-fashioned way. They inherited it.

Is there a billionaire anywhere in the world that earned that money by providing a product or service that was just so valuable?

Or did they make all that money because they conned their way into positions to bribe the people that were supposed to regulate them?

[Demeter]

1. JK Rowling

but her last two books were a cheat of the readers.

She made a point of not rigging her business affairs to cheat taxes, though.

[VWolf]

23. Yeah, first person that came to mind for me, too.

She made tons of money, but at least she got an entire generation to appreciate reading.

She also seems a very nice lady - I saw her in NYC a few years ago.

[IndyPragmatist]

2. I can name many....

Warren Buffett
Lawrence Ellison
Bill Gates
Jean Paul Dejoria
Steve Jobs
Paul Allen
Mark Zuckerberg
Lakshmi Mittal
Amancio Ortega Gaona
Karl Albrecht
Howard Schultz
Ursula Burns

All of this jealousy is starting to get on my nerves. Everyone is attacking the upper class. The rich are evil. Yet most of the people making these claims would do anything they could to be one of the rich.

But, lets just keep the MSNBC talking points going. Billionaires are evil! They are attacking the middle class!

[Syrinx]

4. Zuckerberg?

[jmowreader]

73. On paper he's supposedly a billionaire

but as far as I know he's borrowing money from his mom for cat food, because his "billions" are in an Internet company.

Which, if the fucker doesn't get his shit together regarding privacy, is going to be deserted within three years.

Basically, if someone can create a social media site that doesn't make half its money selling its users' private information, Facebook is screwed.

[Initech]

78. Watch the Social Network.

Zuckerberg made a lot of money but he stabbed a lot of people in the back to get it.

[madmax]

6. Perhaps it's not jealousy that they're millionaires or

even billionaires but, they can afford to pay their fair share of taxes. :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

7. wtf? jealousy? lol. your list is a joke.

warren buffet is a criminal.

[SDuderstadt]

32. How is...

Warren Buffet a "criminal"?

[dionysus]

45. he's not a communist

;)

[DrDan]

9. you are correct - nothing more than middle-school jealousy

Many here actually hate those with money simply because they have money. Not because of how it was earned. But if they have money, they are worthy of hatred.

Just juvenile.

[Hannah Bell]

14. lol. it's about power, not "jealousy".

[DrDan]

25. if someone misuses their power - then you can certainly hold that against them

Just because one is wealthy does not imply a misuse of power.

I still consider it middle-school envy when the wealthy are singled out for nothing more than having some money.

Do you also conclude that all without money are worthy?

[Hannah Bell]

43. "misuse of power" = lol. the power in question is bigger than entire countries &

largely invisible & unaccountable.

i consider your spin jr. high-level mentation.

[DrDan]

44. yeah - all wealthy are power-hungry pigs

just as all blondes are dumb, all blacks are useless drug dealers and all unemployed just want a free handout.

middle-school envy

[Hannah Bell]

50. more middle-school mentation. it's not about individual personalities.

it's about the sheer balance of cash, & thus power. which is the power to "do unto others" without their input, agreement, or even knowledge.

The motivation of the doer is irrelevant. Those who have been "helped" by someone who didn't check with them first can understand. Now multiply that by billions, by entire nations, economies, populations.

[badtoworse]

39. Class envy? Here?? You can't be serious!!

[alarimer]

67. Most did not get rich honestly.

They got it by taking advantage of working people, by paying them shit wages and shit benefits. The rich fucking suck. They do not do any honest work; instead they are waited on hand and foot by the very people they exploit. They cheat our government out of tax revenue. Most of their money is not earned anyway; it is from capital gains which are not taxed enough.

Fuck the rich; No, actually, tax the shit out of them.

[DrDan]

68. so there are absolutely no honest rich folks . . . . amazing

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donnachaidh]

12. Bill gates? Oh yeah, tell that to all the software creators he screwed

Worship of the wealthy is a frightening reality in this country. And Gates is NOT *upper class*.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. And his family was already affluent

For example, he was able to experiment with computers at home, back when the idea of having a computer at home was as unusual as having a private jet.

[ieoeja]

47. And I'm sure it is just a coincidence that his dad was a senior executive for IBM.

Without that contract to supply IBM PCs with an operating system, Microsoft would have been just another failed startup.

And he ended up swindling some other guy out of that operating system (though the courts did finally make him pay a few million to the guy).

But at least he gave us great products like Word (cough, WordPerfect, cough) and Excel (cough, Lotus123, cough) and....

You know, my throat is starting to get itchy here.

[Hannah Bell]

52. "his dad was a senior executive for IBM." ? gates sr was/is a lawyer.

the first seattle firm to have permanent offices in dc.

i've read his mother had ibm connections, but nothing as direct as being an exec.

[timtom]

56. Gotta take issue with you on Excel/Lotus 123

Excel was always a superior product. MY little litmus test was non-contiguous cell range naming. A product called Smart Software had a spreadsheet that could do that at the same time (Mid-80's).

[JHB]

13. I have no problems with them making money on a useful service or product...

I do have a problem when the already-rich try to get rich-er squeezing their employees, cheating their customers, outright fraud, market manipulation, wheeling and dealing, and getting the rules (regulations) changed for their benefit at the expense of everyone else.

When people with a wealth of tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars demand more, and get it by paying their employees as little as possible, by shipping jobs overseas so they can pocket the difference (profitable wasn't good enough, it had to be more profitable), by squeezing every last dime they can from people who have a real need for those resources, then it's not jealousy, it's anger. Anger at being pushed around and hardship added to their lives, disgust at the waste and avarice (remember Cindy McCain's earrings that cost as much as a house?), and outrage that they are getting away with it, because it wasn't always like that.

Jealousy, shmelousy. It's about people trying to get ahead being crapped on by those who already are.

[hifiguy]

54. Your last sentence sums the issue up perfectly. nt

[drokhole]

74. This.

[JHB]

76. This what?

Agreement?
Accusation?
Non Sequitur?
Nothing wrong with a little verboseness.

[DireStrike]

79. "this" is internet forum speak for "I agree".-nt-

[drokhole]

82. Sorry, DireStrike explained it...

...basically, I agree completely with nothing to add other than my virtual support of your argument. I occasionally prefer it to +1, or even +10000. Kind of has a "fuck. yes." undertone to it, as well.

[JHB]

84. Well, then, thanks

[PhillySane]

16. There's a few on that list whose

character I question. But the point really is, our system rewards bad character and cheats those who are honest.

Just the mere fact that you are selfish enough to have a billion dollars puts your motives in question for me. You don't need a billion dollars and you could put that money to use in many, many ways.

One use would simply be to pay your employees more and give them a better quality of life in thanks for making your company so successful.

So few even want to do that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Case in point--The Walton family of WalMart

Each member of the family is a billionaire, and they STILL pay their employees peanuts and import cheap crap from China.

[enki23]

21. well, your tiny, inaccurate, and subjective list of anecdotes totally wins the argument.

.

[Dappleganger]

41. you should remove Gates from the list, he's a jerk.

And Zuckerberg is a self-important prick as well.

Warren Buffett is a rich man with moments of clarity, but once again he hasn't a clue how to relate to common people.

Are they all evil? I don't think they try to be, but they are driven every day to get more "stuff" (money, real estate, goods, power) and IMO that is definitely not good for humanity.

[white_wolf]

57. Whether their good or bad is irrealvent,

No one deserves or needs the amount of money those people have. Also I am glad the upper class is being attacked some, let them have a taste of what the middle and lower classes are going though all the time at their hands. Even if they started out good, it is unlikely they stayed that way once they gained through wealth simply because the system we have encourages greed and love of profits no matter the cost. Money is power and power is corrupting. So yes, I am attacking the rich. There is class warfare in this country and the world, and guess what? The poor and middle classes are losing.

[Kingofalldems]

64. They are attacking the middle class

And keep the Fox talking points going.

[Rex]

70. LEAVE THE BILLIONAIRES ALONE!

:rofl:

[socialist_n_TN]

71. Yep can't have any of that class warfare now can we?

:sarcasm: IF these fucking billionaires are so damn good hearted, they should give a billion dollars each to elect decent representation for the poor. Then another couple billion into direct action programs for the poor and homeless. Until then they're just a "kinder, gentler" version of the Birch brothers. Oh, excuse me, I meant to say the Koch brothers.

IF you're a "good" billionaire, put your fucking money where your mouth is.

[Obamanaut]

3. edited out the snark. nt

[Syrinx]

5. I thought I heard something, sorry

[KharmaTrain]

8. Warren Buffett

I don't think many of us know any billionaires but since the mantra of this site is bash the rich...have at it.

A long time ago I was told it's not how much money you have, it's how you use it. There are people like Buffett who gambled (mostly his money) and won big and have used some of that fortune for good purposes. The same can be said of George Soros and Ted Turner (who inherited millions and turned it into billions). There are others who donate to charitable causes and do so without fanfare...just because you don't hear about them doesn't mean they exist.

Lastly...value is what you make of it. You may not like Gates for whatever but his innovation did transform the world...making personal computers truly personal and creating the atmosphere that makes this here internet roll. But, again, the DU mantra is all money is evil...so be it.

[MannyGoldstein]

10. Warren Buffet's dad was a Congressman, no?

Likely a wealthy one. You don't think that helped to attract other people's money to his funds?

Gates was also born quite wealthy.

Social mobility is possible, but much less likely than most people understand.

[Hannah Bell]

15. and stockbroker. warren inherited some choice connections as well as money.

Buffett's interest in the stock market and investing also dated to his childhood, to the days he spent in the customers' lounge of a regional stock brokerage near the office of his father's own brokerage company. On a trip to New York City at the age of ten, he made a point to visit the New York Stock Exchange. At the age of 11, he bought 3 shares of Cities Service Preferred for himself, and 3 for his sister.<17><18> While in high school he invested in a business owned by his father and bought a farm worked by a tenant farmer. By the time he finished college, Buffett had accumulated more than $90,000 in savings measured in 2009 dollars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett


savor it: in high school he owned a tenant farmer.

[KharmaTrain]

28. Wealth Has Different Definitions...

I'm not familiar with Buffett's father but have heard Gates on several occasions and while a successful businessman in his own right, much of the younger Gates wealth was earned through his own work (starting out in the garage)...and he was able to market his system and company that is a talent unto itself. This is not the same as the Kochs and Scaiffes and DeVos who inherited money and use it to only enrich themselves...call it old money vs. new money.

You are right about the lack of social mobility and the big lie that everyone can "be a millionaire". The American Dream of self sufficiency has gone bust in the past 30 years of corporate greed and the destruction of the middle class. There have been windows of opportunity (such as in the 90s) but those gains were limited or wiped out when the greed finally overtook the general prosperity. What's worse is we have a large percentage of people in this country who still believe that dream and end up being pitted against each other...it sells soap and draws eyeballs to "reality shows".

In my many years I've encountered many "rich" people...and have noticed that the more money they have the less secure they really are. They become consumed with making money and worried that others are going to take it away from them. But I've also met some very benevolent people...those who did work hard to gain a bit of money and comfort in life and have used their money to help those in need. I work with a center for handicapped people that saw its state and federal funding cut big time in recent years...it was those with deep pockets that have stepped up to make up the shortfall. Unfortunately you don't hear about these people...only the ones who use their money to self promote or screw others.

Cheers...

[MannyGoldstein]

29. +1 nt

[ieoeja]

49. His work in the garage ... failed. He had to swindle PC-DOS 1.0 from some other guy.

After that, he hired people who began improving things. Not that PC/MS-DOS was all that special anyway. I was never a PC expert as I worked on the big stuff, but even I wrote a tool that let me do faster searches of the disk than anything I ever got from Microsoft.

Even after his dad at IBM got him that contract with IBM (without which he would have just been another failed startup), which he fulfilled with a stolen OS as his were inadequate ... even after getting famously wealthy, he kept right on stealing designs from everyone else. What he couldn't steal, he bought. What his experts could not readily understand, they eliminated.

Of all the people in the world to admire for their brilliance, Gates is the last person you should pick. There is absolutely nothing the guy got through his own work. He got everything through theft and nepotism.

[KharmaTrain]

69. More The Reason He's A Good Example...

...despite your obvious animous to him personally. I've known many who've inherited money or had family with high connections who squandered both. This isn't about who invented what but how the product was developed and marketed and this, either by pure luck or just plain hard work (usually a combination of the two) would lead to commercial success beyond not only what his father but IBM could have ever envisioned. Inversely Steve Jobs and Apple also followed a similar path but kept their platforms propritory that hampered Mac's growth for many years while Gates made his OS more accessible to developers and this helped make Windows as powerful and profitable. Nepotism didn't do that.

[Syrinx]

83. "Gates made his OS more accessible to developers"

That has to be a joke.

[Hannah Bell]

77. The elder Gates was a lawyer rather than a businessman per se.

His firm was the first Seattle firm with a permanent DC presence.

Bill Jr. never worked in a "garage".

He & Allen did their early work at the prep school (Lakeside) they attended (Allen as a scholarship boy, Gates as a scion of Seattle gentry), which had access to computer time well before computers entered the public schools.

I'm just slightly older than Gates, grew up in the same area, & the first time I was exposed to computers was in university -- punch cards -- & then at Boeing -- data entry.

Gates & Allen were doing programming in jr high school.

http://www.billgatesmicrosoft.com/biography.htm.

[Syrinx]

11. how did Gates make "this internet roll?"

He stole "Windows" from PARC. He said "640K should be enough for anybody." He is a dumbass that bluffed himself into the billionaire's club.

I'm not going to be the first to say you just outed yourself.

[Hannah Bell]

17. i think the us military actually made the internet roll. gates just helped

privatize it. mom's connections helped a bit too.

[KharmaTrain]

24. Outted? LOL

Oh please...you have no clue who I am...nor I do of you. Keep the ad hominem attacks to those who like to play those games. Hate it and deny it but it was Windows that opened up personal computing which in turn led to the widespread use of the internet. Yep...I'm outting myself...I've been using Microsoft OS since 1986. There...happy?? :rofl:

[FormerDittoHead]

31. Note: Jobs stole "Mac" from PARC, Gates stole Windows from "Mac".

And a big, fat lucky streak riding on other people's mistakes, starting with:

http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_was-bill-gates-just-plain-lucky_1200655

[Brickbat]

19. Buffett made some of his money from buying plants and shutting them down.

If fat cats didn't shut factories down, they wouldn't have to worry about giving.

[KharmaTrain]

22. It's Called Capitalism...

...and if one has earned the money one should be able to spend it as they wish...as long as its legal. The problem is when they use their money to gain advantages buying politicians to write laws that give them an unfair advantage and became the basis of our current culture of crony capitalism.

I'm not here to defend Buffett but to address the OP but he and others have given large amounts to private non-profits that have benefitted many. Not all who have wealth got it through inheritance or dirty dealing and do give back to the society on the whole. Life is not so black and white...

Cheers...

[Schema Thing]

27. maybe. maybe you're just assuming that is the case

and if so maybe these were going to be shut down anyway. You didn't give specifics.


In any case, Buffet is not known as a "raider". He is famous for his purchasing what he believes to be quality companies that he thinks will persist.



IOW, he's built a hell of a lot more than he has torn down.

[Hannah Bell]

80. "He is famous for his purchasing what he believes to be quality companies"

Yes, that's what the PR says.

But is it true?

[Nye Bevan]

18. Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon?

I've never heard any allegations of him being dishonest.

[TBF]

20. Grew up in a wealthy suburb of Miami,

doesn't pay his employees very well and there have been allegations of union busting - http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg49877.html

[notesdev]

26. might have been, at one time

today the only way to make real money is to be corrupt as all hell, and steal or embezzle it in some way.

[Zywiec]

33. Is this person corrupt as hell?

Did she steal or embezzle?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/01/self-published-author-amada-hocking_n_829906.html

Broadstroke much...

[Shiver]

35. She's writing vampire romance.

That's a crime in it's own right.

[nxylas]

30. Richard Branson, perhaps?

He may be somewhat irritating, but he seems to have earned his billions rather than inheriting them, and I've not heard of him making his money dishonestly, or using it to buy politicians and fund libertarian think-tanks.

[hifiguy]

55. The weird thing about Richard Branson is that he wouldn't be rich

except for a 19-20 year old hippie musician. Branson was himself something of a hippie entrepeneur when he founded Virgin Records back around '72 or '73. He bought/rented a recording studio and signed a few artists he liked and launched his fledgling label. The kid who hung around the studio and worked as a recording engineer asked if he could use the studio when it wasn't being used by paying customers and Branson agreed to let him do so.

So the kid began recording this long, LONG piece of music during the studio's down hours, playing all of the instruments himself. Meanwhile Tangerine Dream had some success in the UK and Europe but the rest of the label's acts struggled. Virgin Records was going nowhere fast.

Eventually the kid finished his project and the music got passed around and it somehow made its way to William Friedkin, who thought the main theme of the kid's project was just the sort of thing he needed for his new horror movie, an ambitious project called "The Exorcist." So he licensed the music from Virgin and the kid and used it as the theme for his movie. The kid's record, containing that widely-heard theme, sold a jazillion copies, making both his fortune and Richard Branson's.

The kid's name was Mike Oldfield.

The project was called "Tubular Bells."

And the rest is history.

[Nye Bevan]

34. Oooh! Oooh! Got one! JIMMY Buffett!

Now I suppose someone is going to claim that he union-busts at his Margaritaville restaurants.....

[Orsino]

36. A better question might be:

How many billionaires made all their money while providing living wages and good benefits to their workers, and/or inheriting from and investing in only those who did the same?

Maybe Rowling? I think it extremely unlikely for a given person to be able to skim that much off the top in a single lifetime without hurting a lot of people, directly or otherwise.

[jtown1123]

40. Stephen King? Not sure if he's worth billions, more like millions

[dionysus]

46. many, many millions

[blm]

42. Oprah Winfrey, Steven Spielberg, Paul McCartney, David Bowie....all from personal TALENT.

.

[Buns_of_Fire]

48. Sergey Brin and Larry Page? (The Co-Founders of Google)

Both of their fathers were professors, as I recall -- not a whole lot of money there (unless you believe Scott Walker).

[Nye Bevan]

51. I've never heard of Google employees complaining about working conditions (nt)

[hifiguy]

53. I think it is possible to make that kind of money honestly,

but only in two ways and both require an insane amount of luck.

1. Invent a better mousetrap. Create something that, for whatever inexplicable reason, zillions of people want, like an iPod. Jobs and Zuckerberg are the prime examples, Gates slightly less so as his 1990s business practices were fairly unsavory, though positively Gandhian compared to those of banksters and insurance/oil/pharma/telecom execs.

2. Be very smart in addition to being lucky. Buffett is the primary example here. He was able to think a move or three ahead of most people in his stock market dealings and hit the jackpot. Partly brains, partly luck.

There are no other honest, or even relatively honest ways to become that kind of ultimate F*** You wealthy. Entertainers and athletes don't even come close to having that kind of cash.

[Wait Wut]

58. If one of these billionaires handed any of you $500 mil...

...what would you do? Would you hate yourself? Praise him/her? Chastise him/her for not giving it to a "worthy cause"?

Or, would you give it all away? I promise you, if you gave it all away there would be folks here that would criticize the charities or organizations you gave it to.

That's why, when I win the lottery and get $352 mil (before taxes, of course) you'll never see me here again. I plan on doing a lot with that money, but I'm certain I won't make you all happy and I'd be afraid that your attitudes would cause a bitter response and I would end up keeping it all for myself. Possibly to buy an island where I can invite Steve Jobs over to listen to what music I have on my iPod. I hope he likes classical.

[MedicalAdmin]

59. Well as long as you have a plan...

I mean I can't think of anything better to do with my life than buying an island (the seas are rising - maybe you heard?) and hanging with Steve Jobs so he can listen to classical. I'm sure he's chomping at the bit.

[Wait Wut]

60. Speed reading is not your friend...

...it removes your ability to detect sarcasm and satire when you miss over 50% of the comment.

[MedicalAdmin]

62. You could be correct...

... but it could also be that the satire and sarcasm was more present in your head than in the post. My sarcasometer is pretty sensitive.

Sorry for the overreaction, but I'm just not seeing it. Maybe I need some coffee or a bathroom break or something.

[Wait Wut]

63. No harm, no foul.

Thanks for mentioning the bathroom. I'm at work alone...it sucks. I have 3 hours to go. Well...to wait until...

nevermind.

[MedicalAdmin]

65. Bwahahahahaha.

Yup - I bend my head and say a little thanks to John Crapper everytime I use one. The man most responsible for modern civilization IMHO.

[Wait Wut]

66. AAAHAHAHAHA!!!

I've actually reached that age where the bathroom is becoming my second favorite room in the house! Wow...this is a great place to share this.

To make this more on topic...if I were a billionaire I could afford to hire someone to sit at my desk while I went to the bathroom.

If I were a billionaire...I wouldn't be at my desk.

If I were a rich man...yada yada yada da...I could hire Steve Jobs to finish this web site for me.

[Shandris]

61. I'd rebuild my family's ancestral castle...

...buy a few things, and start looking for proper projects that will last for the future. Seriously, as someone who was raised by a millionaire, watching it ALL get squandered, and lived a long portion of my life ranging from being on the streets, living out of a car, living in low-rent apartments, to working in a corporate environment and back again, I can buy everything I legitimately want/need with about $17,000 including a car with epic gas mileage. I live on less than $1,000/month -- that's fast food territory. I might not eat out every night or whatnot, but I don't drastically want for anything either because money, as I've learned, is a very transient thing to base life around. To be a billionaire, you pretty much have to base your life around its' constant acquisition. THAT'S what makes it, generically speaking, 'wrong'. So if your hypothetical billionaire gave me $500 million, I'd pay the taxes on our ancestral estate -- its currently owned, in arrears, by family I've never even met back in Europe -- and renovate it, spend about $20,000 on my necessities, put some aside for future health care, and then get busy with the future. Because our CURRENT millionaires aren't doing a whole fuck of a lot to plan for it, that's for sure. Except to plan for their own continued extravagance.

And I'd START with the WuLong Panda Preserve in China, because the Giant Panda is something everyone should be able to see at LEAST once in their lifetime, then turn my attention to those who don't get any -- our homeless.

Edit: Because Shift-4 and Shift-5 are SO close together on a keyboard. :)

[Raine]

72. I think the majority of billionaires are born from millionaires

they inherit millions and build it up to billions. It takes money to make money, it's the first million or two that's hard to get.

[TheKentuckian]

81. Who cares? The disparity is too great for a functioning economy.

I don't care if they are Buddha or Darth Vader they are functionally toxic and symptoms of a broken system.