What is the goal of capitalism?

[white_wolf]

In my debates with some capitalists on these and other forums I've said that I think and I still do think that the goal of capitalism is to to make as much profit as you can, therefore the system is naturally exploitative. Several capitalist posters have said I am wrong, so I'm asking what, in your opinion, is the goal of capitalism?

[Hannah Bell]

1. to accumulate capital.

Accumulate, accumulate! That is Moses and the prophets! “Industry furnishes the material which saving accumulates.” Therefore, save, save, i.e., reconvert the greatest possible portion of surplus-value, or surplus-product into capital! Accumulation for accumulation’s sake, production for production’s sake: by this formula classical economy expressed the historical mission of the bourgeoisie, and did not for a single instant deceive itself over the birth-throes of wealth. But what avails lamentation in the face of historical necessity? If to classical economy, the proletarian is but a machine for the production of surplus-value; on the other hand, the capitalist is in its eyes only a machine for the conversion of this surplus-value into additional capital.

[socialist_n_TN]

52. And once again, I can add nothing to the words........

of the brilliant Hannah Bell. :) What she said.

Edited for a stupid misspelling. I really should use that spelchek thingie. :)

[roamer65]

66. Delete.

[Hannah Bell]

85. ? the words of marx.

[JackRiddler]

93. Take it as praise that people think you're that good of a writer.

[socialist_n_TN]

104. Yeah, that too........

:) BTW, if there were any doubt, that was praise.

[jimlup]

74. +1

[leftstreet]

82. +1

[Zephie]

2. I'm not who you want answers from, but I believe capitalism's goal is

social control: Those who have, continue to have, and those who don't are inconsequential. Capitalism fosters a "I got mine, Jack" mentality, and gives little reason to lend a helping hand to your fellow man. When the goal is to be at the top of the pile, why help anyone else get there if you want to be the top dog?

[Jackpine Radical]

6. Actually, that's a step beyond capitalism, I think. And it's where we are now.

Namely, the Corporate State.

AKA Fascism.

[xchrom]

3. I don't believe what we are experiencing is capitalism.

This neo-liberalism on steroids.

The Medici would love what we are living through.

[valerief]

16. Blaming liberals, huh? Nah, this is unadulated capitalism. Pure GIMME Greed. nt

[white_wolf]

18. I think Neo-libearlism refers to a return to the econmic

polices of classical liberalism which is pure unregulated capitalism. At least I think that is what it means, it doesn't refer to modern liberalism or social liberalism as its sometimes called.

[valerief]

26. The use of n-l is to taint liberalism. It's so obvious. nt

[xchrom]

34. Liberalism tainted itself - no one helped it.

Try reading - just a little.

Neoliberalism is not liberalism and liberalism is not the 'good' thing you think it is.
That would be in America progressivism or socialism.

It's better to argue from an informed point of view.

[DireStrike]

40. Yes, when this idea recently became popular it was called neo-conservatism...

Left-wing thinkers are fine with "neoliberalism", since it's technically correct. The right wing likes it because it makes the left look bad.

[xchrom]

60. An uneducated response - they are not the same.

Go back and learn the difference.

[DireStrike]

63. You're right, thank you.

[MilesColtrane]

72. The "liberalism" part of neoliberalism refers to liberal trade policy, i.e. little to no...

regulation of markets, or restrictions on ownership of capital.

While it is a totally different idea than political liberalism, the word is an accurate descriptor of a certain economic philosophy.

[valerief]

89. thanks

[Puregonzo1188]

83. Um...no it is not. Economic liberalism has and always will refer to free-market economics.

Adam Smith was an economic liberal. Neo-liberalism is a modern variant of economic liberalism that's based heavily on the theories of Milton Friedman. No conspiracy here.

It's also why in most countries Liberal Parties are either center-right parties or akin to our libertarians (socially liberal, economically liberal).

In the US liberal has taken on a different meaning for historical reasons I'm not really sure and what you would think of us "liberal" economics would probably be Keynesian economics or maybe even something akin to European Social Democracy.

[valerief]

91. thanks

[JackRiddler]

86. No. "Neoliberalism" refers to the return of classical liberal economic doctrine (19th century).

[valerief]

90. thanks

[fascisthunter]

97. this a few years back confused me as well

liberalism and neo-liberalism are verrrry different.

[WillyT]

4. More Money...

:shrug:

[Jackpine Radical]

5. Here's Milton Friedman on the topic:

The Social Responsibility of Business is to Increase its Profits

by Milton Friedman
The New York Times Magazine, September 13, 1970. Copyright @ 1970 by The New York Times Company.

When I hear businessmen speak eloquently about the "social responsibilities of business in a free-enterprise system," I am reminded of the wonderful line about the Frenchman who discovered at the age of 70 that he had been speaking prose all his life. The businessmen believe that they are defending free en­terprise when they declaim that business is not concerned "merely" with profit but also with promoting desirable "social" ends; that business has a "social conscience" and takes seriously its responsibilities for providing em­ployment, eliminating discrimination, avoid­ing pollution and whatever else may be the catchwords of the contemporary crop of re­formers. In fact they are–or would be if they or anyone else took them seriously–preach­ing pure and unadulterated socialism. Busi­nessmen who talk this way are unwitting pup­pets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society these past decades.

A long essay at

http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/libertarians/issues/friedman-soc-resp-business.html

[underpants]

46. Great post. We have been under Friedman's fantasy for 30+ years

and all the talk of "responsibilities" of capitalists have unfortunately become a joke - a joke becaue the capitalists think that is the funniest damned thing they ever heard. They are taught at the finest of schools to think that way.

[Mojambo]

7. Growth of profits.

Even when that growth becomes cancerous.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

8. Ever play Monopoly?

One person gets everything, everyone else is fucked. Pretty much sums it up.

[Canuckistanian]

9. What is a shark's goal?

World peace? Sustainable fishing? Artistic expression? Nope, Food.

Capitalists have a goal, too. And only ONE goal, like the shark. Profits. If they tell you they have multiple goals, they're lying.

[dbonds]

10. To use the masses inherent greed as a means of control...

Capitalism sets the dream for the masses to be wealthy. In pursuit of that dream we gladly inslave ourselves to run on the wage treadmill. Every once in a while one of us makes it good just to be shown as an example to the rest of us of what we could do. So we work harder to make more money that never comes, except for the owners of the country.

Then through in the concept of credit and we no longer get to choose day by day if we want to get back on the treadmill. With credit we have sold our future into wage slavery.

[DontTreadOnMe]

11. Capitalism = protect property owners

Capital = Property

What? You don't own property? Then you are totally f*cked...

[FLPanhandle]

12. Profit

Unrestricted it can be like a engine revving up higher and higher until it blows (i.e. people revolt)

The trick is to keep the proper restrictions and controls on it.

Proper controlled, it's a powerful and efficient economic model.

[bbgrunt]

39. sounds a little like a nuclear reactor. apt analogy.

[valerief]

13. So that rich people can get richer and one will be the Bestest with the Mostest.

Everything else that trickles down is propaganda.

[stuntcat]

14. growth

growth and growth and growth. Only a great catastrophe could end it, so it's a good thing our resources are all infinite! :D

[Starry Messenger]

15. Accumulation and profit.

Maximizing profit and expanding to accumulate more.

[inna]

17. maximize profits for the tiny minority.

It is exploitative and economically undemocratic, by definition.

[white_wolf]

19. since a lot of people seem to agree with my assessment

then I have to ask: How did we get duped into accepting this system?

[handmade34]

21. whether we want to admit it or not

humans are herd animals

[JoePhilly]

54. Has any one responding to this thread actually run a business of any kind?

I really do have to wonder.

My father and grandfather ran a small business. They tried to make a profit, and pay their workers. The profit, they used to pay off the loans they took to start the business. They used their profits to find and fund their next construction job. And they used some of their profits to try and improve the life of their family.

The real issue is that much of what we call capitalism today is no such thing. Its is unregulated corporate fascism.

[coalition_unwilling]

70. Have you ever read any Marx? Where exactly do you think

those profits of your father's and grandfather's business came from? (Hint: The profits did not spring fully formed from the forehead of Zeus.)

Some of the profits of your father's and grandfather's business came from them not paying their workers the full value of what the workers had contributed, hence Marx' use of the phrase "surplus value".

I'm not accusing your father and grandfather of being any better or worse than any other petit bourgeois. But you need to be honest with yourself and acknowledge that business "profits" come at the expense of someone not getting paid what their contributions were actually worth.

[white_wolf]

71. That is the problem with captialism

even if your boss means well, he has no choice to exploit you. It is the nature of the system, and he may not mean to or even know he is exploiting people. It is also important to point out that unlike the "real" bourgeois, the petite bourgeois are being likely being exploited themselves by credit companies or other financial institutions.

[Solomon]

102. I beg to differ. It's not exploitation if you have to bear the risk.

I grew up in a small family business. I went through my "marxist" phase where I wondered, why do we get to make profit simply because we owned the business? As I grew older and had to take on more responsibility, I began to see that there is work that the owners have to do that the workers don't, and more importantly, there is a great deal of risk involved. The worker risks losing his job if the concern goes under, but the owner not only risks losing his job, but also everything he owns, the house, the savings account, etc.

It's not as easy as declaring that capitalists are exploiting the workers. A lot of capitalists do, but I don't think all of them necessarily do.

[socialist_n_TN]

55. Because a few hundred years ago, it was a step up

from feudalism? At least from my interpretation of Marx, that was the purpose.

[white_wolf]

59. There are times when I wonder

if enlightened despotism was really that bad. I'm just kidding, but its hard to tell the difference from capitalism and feudalism at times.

[socialist_n_TN]

61. I agree with that. Both systems result in a despotic elite........

one based on birth and the other based on money AND birth.

I think what Marx and Engel's were getting at was the capitalist system was better for increasing the production of "stuff" over feudalism. At some point you have enough "stuff" to make socialism a realistic proposition. That's when it should take over FROM capitalism as a more logical, democratic system.

[white_wolf]

64. It should have taken over years ago.

[coalition_unwilling]

75. While it was a step up from feudalism (several steps up, imho), Marx

believed that the social relations in feudalism had become obsolete and that the rise of the bourgeoisie had supplanted the role of the ancien regime of aristocracy and feudal lords.

[fascisthunter]

95. same question can be applied to gambling

someday, I will win!!!!!!

[kentuck]

20. Capitalism is a form of slavery..

Its goal is to make as much money as possible, with the cheapest labor possible, and the least amount of oversight by society. It is criminal in its conception.

[Throd]

22. For me, to provide a decent living for myself and my family.

[white_wolf]

23. How does capitalism as a system provide that?

It seems to me, to be opposed to providing a decent living for most people.

[Throd]

30. It allows me to sell my services for money so I can buy things from other people

[BOG PERSON]

24. that's right

the whole reason we have the current mode of production that we do is in order to benefit you, "throd"

[Throd]

31. I do benefit from it. Without any apologies.

[BOG PERSON]

38. good for you!

[DireStrike]

41. You actually don't. You don't need to apologize for being exploited.

[Throd]

43. Funny, I don't feel too exploited.

My situation could be better, but I don't feel as if I am a helpless victim of malevolent forces.

[white_wolf]

44. Ahh the great delusion of capitalism.

[Throd]

45. Thanks. From now on, I'll make sure to be sufficiently miserable at all times.

I'm not advocating unfettered capitalism without any oversight or restrictions.

[kentuck]

53. That's the beauty of capitalism...

If you are comfortable, there is no need to be concerned about the miserableness of others. It is about "me", not "we". Greed is indeed a major component.

[Throd]

57. Who else is gonna pay my bills?

I'm far from comfortable. I work some pretty crazy hours to stay afloat.

[kentuck]

58. That was just my $.02....

That is all that I have left after I pay my bills...

[DireStrike]

62. Working crazy hours to stay afloat isn't normal.

And it isn't just you.

[AlabamaLibrul]

84. So you're "far from comfortable", are forced to work "crazy hours to stay afloat"

yet don't identify yourself as being exploited.

Hint: Your boss's boss's boss is feeling *very* comfortable thanks to those pretty crazy hours you agreed to take on. In fact, you just bought him his third yacht.

[deutsey]

92. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of life under capitalism. n/t

[fascisthunter]

98. You are BOTH right

you don't have much of a choice right now, but some here are trying to convince you that there is a better way and that we should work for a better system that doesn't force you to play this game. Hey, I have to work, and to a degree we all get exploited... we don't have to like it, it's just a reality we need to try to change.

[coalition_unwilling]

76. If you work for a for-profit concern, you are not being fairly

compensated for your labor. Some portion of your labor is being retained by the owners of the business, be they sole proprietors or shareholders, as 'profit' and not being paid to you.

I view that as an exploitative relation and am in agreement with the OP. You may not see it as 'exploitation' and you are entitled to that view. But doesn't it piss you off that some of your work is being stolen from you and given to a bunch of fucking parasites?

[xchrom]

36. You're talking about 'money' - 'money' is a thing

That only has value by those who print it and inject it into the system.

They control it's value - and you have less and less control over
What you can charge for your 'services' or labor.

[JackRiddler]

87. That may be your goal within capitalism, but it's not a definition of capitalism.

[WingDinger]

25. Wrote a song about it, and it goes like this

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/WingDinger/11

[JFN1]

27. There is NO goal for capitalism

It's not about an endgame. It's all about the current moment. Plans are made only to satisy the current moment, which demands, to the exlusion of all else, the maximum return on investment in the business.

No goals - just the game, the endless game, which has at its end, absolutely no point whatsoever...

[Marblehead]

49. weird but true

I am really sick of the game, seems we are all deluding ourselves although I don't know what would replace it.

[socialist_n_TN]

56. This is true. If a capitalist could make money today.......

off of the end of the world next week, some capitalist would do it.

It wasn't just something to say when Lenin said that about the capitalist selling you the rope you'd use to hang him. It was a truism.

[Terra Alta]

28. to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

With basically no means for the poor to achieve any kind of wealth.

[WingDinger]

29. Not only to enrich the rich, but to make all others sell property and possessions at fire sale.

It's called the business cycle. And it must not be second guessed. For it is sacred. Why, to create bubbles, which they make cash on the way up, and then picking our bones. That is the germ seed of the Tea Party. The moral, hence winners, DESERVED the possessions of the now desperate.

[sudopod]

32. It has no goal.

It is one of the larvae of the Other Gods, who are blind and without mind, and possessed of singular hungers and thirsts.

[Initech]

33. Step 1 - get rich. Step 2 - ??? Step 3 - Profit!

[white_wolf]

35. Shouldn't it be step1-proft. step 2- get rich

[Initech]

42. I was using the underpants gnomes theory from South Park.

[joshcryer]

37. Theft.

[DeSwiss]

47. CAPITALISM IS CANCER - n/t

[some guy]

48. To increase profits for the owners.

Capitalism has no other goals. It should have no other goals,

That it should have no other goals is the reason it needs to be strictly regulated to protect the people and planet.

Unregulated capitalism is no different than cancer in that it will destroy it's host. Cancer kills humans; Capitalism, unregulated, will kill humanity, and most, if not all, currently existing species.

The planet will survive, even if it is barren of life for several centuries. But if it's barren who will exist to care?

[TheKentuckian]

50. The same as the black hole, to consume everything everywhere if it can.

To eat and to eat more and more.

Such a creation might be able to be harnessed but I'd say the means of doing so are well beyond anything we know now.

The obsession with magically re-creating a brief exception in hundreds of years of practice is amazing to me. Well, worse than the notion of remaking a brief pause, it is the idea that such a thing is what it appeared to be from our perspective, that the easy resources are there, or that we can continuously explode the population like it took world wide for the correct conditions to occur.

Physics trumps politics and even economics, we cannot sustain a consumer based and ever growing economic system. The resources aren't there, especially when accumulation of capital permits the system to be gamed by strangling competition, capturing regulators, killing emerging replacements for their products and services and many different forms of using connections and resources to remain on top.

The system invites and rewards perversions and will always and forever work toward it's natural state which is certainly not the "golden age" between 1950 and 1980 at the latest.

We aren't ready for black hole regulation and control.

[unkachuck]

51. the goal of capitalism....

....is to steal as much wealth from you as possible and give it to the rich....

[Swede]

65. To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women. ...

:shrug:

[roamer65]

67. The accumulation and concentration of wealth.

[rhett o rick]

69. Well put. nm

[white_wolf]

68. Wait I think have it. UNLIMITED POWER!!!

[and-justice-for-all]

73. To pillage and burn..nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. The goal of any economic system is to allocate resources to maximize the happiness of the people

Like communism and socialism, Absent any rules, The game allows exploitation.

The problem isn't the game, it's the lack of referees.

[applegrove]

78. It is about creating wealth pure and simple. What is done with the wealth, how it is split up

is a story for democracies to write. Capitalism is simply and economic system. It is not humanity. Capitalism is not about how to create the best jobs.

[coalition_unwilling]

79. I don't think capitalism (an anonymous economic system) has

a "goal" per se. Capitalism is by its very nature exploitative. as some of the value produced by labor is returned not to labor but to capital. That's a high-falutin' way of saying that capitalism steals from workers to pad the bank accounts of parasites, i.e., the 'rentiers'.

[Prophet 451]

80. To accumulate wealth, obviously

Now, whether that makes it naturally exploitative, I don't know (economics is not my area).

[Puregonzo1188]

81. 3% Compound Growth sustained unlimitedly.

Which is impossible btw.

[JackRiddler]

88. But given that everyone knows it's impossible...

each major holder of capital aims to maximize their slice of the pie on the up and the down. The latter calls for a different strategy.

[devilgrrl]

94. Whoever dies with the most toys wins and...

buy more stuff.

[moondust]

96. Pigs everywhere.

Big fat smelly pigs wallowing in their own shit.

[FreeJoe]

99. Goal?

I think "purpose" might be a better term. Goal implies and end game. All economic systems have to deal with the issue of capital ownership. Who owns buildings, factories, etc? In a capitalist system, they are largely owned by privately. The main justification for capitalism is that it generates higher economic growth than socialism.

Few countries are, or ever have been, completely capitalist or completely socialist. The real question is how to get the optimal blend between the two.

[fascisthunter]

100. I Think a Hybrid System is the First STep

towards a more socialized system that rewards folks better, I think when people are in a system that forces one to think in terms of "me", it perpetuates the concept of greed more and it makes it hard for people to want to change. However if we all had to think along the lines of "We" you start to see the fostering of a more caring, and rewarding system for people to thrive and prosper.

The right wing(fascists) have been convincing people for many years that individualism somehow dies when people live in a socialized system... of course that is absolutely untrue.

[ItNerd4life]

101. Historically, governments kept the earnings of the people

Capitalism was to allow the people to keep rewards of their work, not the government.
Thus, people work much harder to try and better their environment for themselves and their families.

The problem is wealth turns into power. Many of executives of businesses now have so much wealth and power,
they are keeping it instead of the workers within the company. They have become as evil as the governments
who kept the earnings.

The best way to combat this is NOT to tax the rich. It's to make it so the executives have to 'share' the income
of the corporation with the workers. 401k programs work great for creating wealth for executives and workers.
Create a similar program for income. Government taking the money in forms of taxes and distributing it doesn't work.

On edit: The anti-capitlism on this thread shows a complete misunderstanding of the history of capitalism and other economic theories.

[white_wolf]

103. More like the anti-capitalism shows an understaning of the true nature of the system.