Punching Hippies Might Feel Good, But...

[kpete]

Punching Hippies Might Feel Good, But...

Where Hippie Punching Gets You
by digby

The fact is that there is no liberal establishment willing to validate liberalism. Indeed, for reasons only they can tell us, they almost always go out of their way to exclude anyone who can readily be identified as a person of the left and rush before the cameras and into print to reassure America that they have no support. I have my theories about why that might be, but suffice to say it's a fairly easily documented phenomenon. There is simply no space in the establishment political dialog for explicitly left policy or rhetoric.

...........When you wake up one morning and see a Democratic president praising the biggest spending cuts in history at a time of 8.8% unemployment, it might be time to take a look in the mirror.

..........

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2011/04/where-hippie-punching-gets-you.html
http://www.eschatonblog.com/2011/04/punching-hippies-might-feel-good-but.html#disqus_thread

[patrice]

1. K&R for "look in the mirror". Calling yourself a Liberal or Progressive & being pissed at Obama ....

doesn't MAKE you a Liberal or a Progressive.

[patrice]

2. P.S. Especially on a board where so many post under false names. nt

[damntexdem]

3. Praising Obama for this "compromise" means you lose all claim to being liberal or progressive.

Criticizing Obama for his role in this is not a sufficient condition, but is a necessary one, for any claim to being progressive.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluestate10]

45. Into rather self serving definition making, aren't ye?

Get a clue. Politics and what is a right political result is more complex than your rather cloistered viewpoint fathoms.

[EFerrari]

5. Indeed, there is no reference to President Obama that could make one a liberal or progressive. n/t

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

20. So what makes you THE arbiter of what is and what is not "Left"? Your response could appear

to be that of a fascist.

[kenfrequed]

49. I believe that might accusation might be a logical fallacy....

Oh wait... it is.

[Bandit]

6. What makes one a Liberal is believing in Liberal causes such as progressive taxation

ending wars and single payer health care. Just to name a couple.. I also think virtually everything Jesus preached is Liberal, like care for the poor and less fortunate, etc. Obama doesn't seem to recognize any of those causes and is certainly not fighting for any..I am opposed to the Republican way of doing business and any that believe that way whether they have a D after their name or not will have an extremely tough time getting my vote..

[patrice]

12. Outcomes are what matters and your position, and that of your buddies above, will likely result in

outcomes which are the opposite of Liberal, no matter how much you claim otherwise. That puts you in the same camp as that which you claim the President is in, whichever label you all hang on yourselves.

[Bandit]

22. Do you honestly believe Democrats would have gone along with a Republican

President that proposed the exact same things Obama has? I doubt very seriously things so favorable to Republicans would have ever past the Senate if a Republican had been President.. I think we are being rolled.

[patrice]

30. I admit the possibility that we are being rolled; the dynamic synthesis that I strive for is

one of my responses to that possibility. OBAMA no more "owns me" than he doesn't "own me"; I AM (as freely as possible under a given set of circumstances) THE ACTIVE ARBITER of my relationships.

In re your hypothetical: I think there is good reason to suspect that the manner in which Republican actions are articulated through implementation IS, because of the differences in our values, essentially different from how a Democrat implements the same actions. I know that I cannot say that those differences are necessarily significant, but neither can Obama-haters claim that they are necessarily insignificant.

That said, the possibility of dishonesty and betrayal of any and all parties involved, including the President, is high; anyone can be out-gamed. Synthesis is part of my response in doing what I can about that, driven by the assumption that Obama's failure will hurt more already hurt and damaged people than his success will, no matter how much I disagree with SOME of the terms of his success, because dominant Republicans have CLEARLY demonstrated their willingness and ability to initiate the expenditure of more human lives in pursuit of their values than Obama has.

[leeroysphitz]

25. "will likely result in..." Say's you. You don't have a crystal ball.

And the pretzel logic used by the die hard willing thralls sounds more and more like shameless luntzcraft.

[patrice]

28. I know I don't and I also know that you don't and your claim that you do is really

just more of "Meet the 'new' boss, same as the old boss."

If both sides could recognize this fact, they could construct something, but they don't do this, because too many on both sides are too BENT upon maintaining the power of the illusion that they do have that crystal ball.

[EOTE]

11. That may be true.

But you really can't support the bulk of this administration's actions and still call yourself a Liberal or a Progressive. Because aside from a few token crumbs, extremely little this administration has done has been liberal or progressive.

[patrice]

13. Who said I support any of that "bulk"? I'm just trying to be realistic about the process, instead of

selling pie-in-the-sky and delivering more of the same old thing, 8 more years of a Republican administration in this case.

[EOTE]

16. You said that automatic dismissal of this president does not make one a liberal.

I was agreeing with you. That's very much not true as there are countless freepers and teabaggers who dismiss the president and they're FAR from liberal. However, it's nearly impossible to support this president's agenda and still call yourself a liberal. I, for one, am sick of being manipulated into voting for a candidate who promises so much, yet delivers almost nothing. If the president wants my support, he'll have to earn it. I'm of the mind that he'll have an easy time being reelected. But he'll have to earn my support if he wants it.

[patrice]

18. k, & I offer my apologies. I see that we agree, but with one exception: the reality is

that all of this focus on him distracts from what his actual, and historically longstanding, limitations really are and the consequent of that fact that any displacement of responsibility from ourselves only delays the changes that we actually need to make for ourselves and that delay will be optimized by the opposition which will result in more actual death and destruction to the vulnerable. Without those changes, whatever we do, even so-called "third" party stuff, is only shifting chairs with different labels on them around on the deck of the Titanic.

If I were of a more fascist mindset, like some people display so clearly, I'd say ANY focus on Obama excludes the probability that one is a Liberal, but since I'm not a fascist, I will settle for "too much focus" on Obama reduces the possibility that one is an authentic Liberal.

[patrice]

17. With the operative word being "selling", because that's what the Professional Left does. It's called

a career.

[patrice]

14. In short, you all CANNOT DELIVER ANYTHING at this point and, as much as I'd enjoy it, as much easier

as that would make things for me, I will NOT lie to myself or anyone else about that.

[TheKentuckian]

38. I'll take nothing over about ten fuckloads of fail all on the high interest credit card.

Nothing is a hell of an upgrade over daily slippage paid for by poor and working folks while the wealthy count the proceeds.

We need a new list of the greatness of Third Way results! I'll kick it off.

GATT

Financial deregulation.

Welfare deform.

Most favored status for China.

Implementing Gingrichcare, including mandate and a key to the treasury for the cartel which moves them from scaled back with a leash on to Too Big To Fail.

Rubberstamping and enhancing the Republican mockery of the constitution and civil liberties.


"We got something done!" Well, I wish you didn't and just said you did. Especially all the fucking outright collaboration with the Republicans and their steering committee, the Chamber of Commerce.

Even the worthless "Centrists" you put up that get in (to facilitate the Republicans and capital, of course) that have given us "majorities" are a nothing burger since they simply ally with the Republicans for a cycle or two before they are replaced with the genuine article.

[patrice]

39. You can do that without inflicting your decision on others, making their decisions as to what they

will suffer for them is not very Democratic.

[TheKentuckian]

48. I suffer for the decisions of others like everyone else, not that I see the relevancy to my post

[kenfrequed]

50. Nonsense.

Seriously this is starting to sound like Prose from Lewis Carrol. Speak directly to issues please as innumerable issues have been brought up regarding what it means to be a liberal.

[PufPuf23]

21. POTUS Obama is a neo-liberal not a liberal by his own admission (and actions)

I have been a Democratic Party member and supporter since before POTUS Obama was born.

A neo-liberal has more in common with a neo-conservative in terms of economic and foreign policy than a liberal.

SDude posted a link to a "debunking" of fascism site that specifically defined Third Way movements as fascist in nature.

POTUS Obama distanced himself from the DLC before the election but has since said that he was a "New" Democrat (Third Way ala the Clintons).

I did not support HRC because she is a neo-liberal and my perception of HRC as a war hawk moreso than Obama.

POTUS Obama has surrounded himself with neo-liberals and GOP holdovers and has been most present for neo-liberal policy and war.

In our good hearts, most Americans are Social Democrats like most countries in the EU. The recognition is blurred because of media and religion.

The hippy and Baby Boom generation bashing is tiresome. We accomplished long term trends and most of us have been consistently anti-war and pro-environmental sanity. I lived 2/3s of my time from 1959 to 1979 (for school and work) in the east and north San Francisco Bay area. I was tear gassed on high school field trips to a museum in Berkeley and a Presidential rally in San Francisco and attended many political and cultural rallies and events over the years. I was feral in high school and have a BS and MBA from Cal Berkeley and worked for the Feds as well.

I "sacrificed", -- did what I considered moral -- for apparent naught: traded money, opportunities, and career path for principals.

So the "hippy punching" term and action by POTUS Obama's folks (and some posters at DU sadly) pisses me off.

A neo-liberal is not a traditional liberal except in allowing a variety lifestyle choice and manipulating interests groups for power like the neo-conservatives.

That said, I vote Democratic Party except for times in county.

[Blue_In_AK]

29. I think you and I shared tear gas at that presidential rally

in San Francisco. Good times....

[cliffordu]

24. YEP. EXACTLY.

[gratuitous]

4. Indeed, progressive politics would augur for more spending, not less

Every dollar in tax cuts for the overrich returns less than $0.50 to the federal coffers. Giving the wealthy more money doesn't benefit anyone except the wealthy. Dollars spent on infrastructure development and restoration (those recovery jobs that Republicans claim aren't "real" jobs) return well over a dollar to the Treasury, through increased tax revenues from more working people, as well as the multiplier effect when middle class and working class people have more money to spend.

Cutting spending at this time is actually going to cost us more in the long run. It's like saying "You know, fuck the mortgage this month! I'm keeping that thousand dollars!" Well, after your mortgage holder defaults you, and you go through all the rigamarole involved in keeping your house, you've spent far more than a thousand dollars, and you may not even keep your house. Yeah, your bank balance looks great for a week or so when you don't pay your mortgage. But soon you get to be broke and homeless.

[H2O Man]

7. Sometimes, what appears

to be a "hippie" might be your worst enemy.

[fasttense]

8. The RepubliCON propaganda has so enslaved American ideology that even

a Democratic President can not act in a liberal manner.

[patrice]

15. Perhaps that is because there is, apparently, no place on "the Left" for self-determination, as is

so clearly demonstrated by its posts to this thread. It's just another power clique trying to distract people from the pain and destruction it will wreak on those who have already paid the highest price for what we have become.

[patrice]

19. If you all doubt my characterization of the outcomes you will deliver, let's just observe the role

you will play in the upcoming debate about the quantity and quality of Medicare reform.

[defendandprotect]

23. Considering the overwhelming mandate for Obama -- we all need our BS meters turned up waaay higher!!

[patrice]

31. I could accept that statement if you'd recognize that it possibly applies to your position too & if

you can't or are unwilling to accept those possibilities, IMO, that makes you the same thing, with a different label, as that which enslaved us in the first place.

ANY Absolutism is authoritarian; authoritarianism is an easy cop-out on the truth. Lies and avoidance of authenticity are what enslave us.

[defendandprotect]

40. Since I voted for Obama, you can be damned sure that I feel responsible for this -- !!

And had I had any inkling that Obama was a "New Dem" I certainly wouldn't have

voted for him --

I relied on what everyone else here said of Obama -- they were in the campaigns

and following him closely --

I should have followed my own instincts re his meteoric rise --

Your post is a bit erratic -- don't know what "possibilities" you are talking about --

we are all suffering from 4 years of Obama -- and I certainly will not be voting for

him again.

Don't know what "label" you're talking about but obviously you're more concerned with

trying to strike out at Obama critics rather than dealing with the criticism.

Some truths are "absolutes" -- we know where the horizon is -- we know the difference

between "up" and "down" -- and, yes, there are truths which carry authority.

That is quite different from corporatism which is fascism ... by anyone's dictionary!

[patrice]

33. P.S. "overwhelming mandate" = fasle dichotomy; some people support unconditionally, others

do not - AND - the same thing can be said re the anti-Obama crowd.

[defendandprotect]

41. There are people who think that there was vote theft which reduced Obama's win...

and that the theft would have provided for something like 24 more Congressional

reps --

That aside, certainly the GOP did not have a "mandate" -- they were a collapsed party --

until Obama resurrected them from the ashes in making them equal partners -- and at times

even more than equal partners!

[Blue_In_AK]

26. Old hippie here, still standing

I've absorbed lots of punches over the decades, bruised and battered, but the fight goes on.

[Scuba]

27. Doncha know? The hippies were right!! ................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVoP5SvqJVo

[Contrary1]

32. This comment sums it all up nicely:

2006: Democrats listen to the left, oppose the Iraq War, gain control of Congress.

2008: Democrats listen to the left, oppose the Iraq War, run on "hope and change", win more seats as well as the presidency.

2010: Democrats ignore the left, run to the middle, have no issues at all, lose massively.

[patrice]

36. There at least 2 sides in all relationships. 2010: Democrats ignore the Left and the Left

gives up, surrenders to the frame defined by the Democrats/Republicans, thus abandoning the field to token rhetoric rather than outcomes.

[Scuba]

37. Too good to not be an OP. Sorry, I'm stealing. n/t

[defendandprotect]

42. +1000% -- and 2012 -- not hard to predict given Obama's corporate 4 years!!

[Search4Justice]

47. That sums it up quite nicely.

Funny that no one inside the DC bubble can figure something so obvious out.

Or perhaps they are CHOOSING not to.

[xchrom]

34. Recommend

[annabanana]

35. "no space in the establishment political dialog"

There is no "space" because the doorkeepers of that "space" (media conglomerates)know that the policies themselves would be wildly popular, so the less discussion the better.

[treestar]

43. Tired of them threatening to go elsewhere and claiming they are

the only ones that matter; that is essentially what they do.

They should just leave already. If Republicans win, so be it. If they are really in charge, they can live with that, then.

The Democrats do what they can just to get crap from the unhelpful far left. Then live under Republicans if that's the best you can do. Geez.

[bluestate10]

44. Some people.

I have read post from some saying that they would entertain moving to another country, but in the same post, list many reason why they can't. The whole idea of moving to another country and leaving the USA a cesspool of rightwing filth strikes this poster as insane. What those wanting to move are saying is fuck people that can't move, either because they are trapped by impoverished circumstances or would not be accepted into another country. Some of the same people making the insane arguments view themselves and like minded posters as the salt of the democratic party. One would hope that Will Rodger's ghost find them one night and kick them in the ass.

[JoeyT]

46. I don't claim I matter at all.

Poor, women, minorities, gays, the middle class, etc. They matter. I'm just a very very small wheel in a very very big machine. But this wheel don't turn for anyone that doesn't support the things that matter.