"It is a mean, nasty book and if I could make it nastier I would."

[pokerfan]

On this day in 1939 that John Steinbeck's novel The Grapes of Wrath was published.



Steinbeck didn't expect the book to be popular — he told (his agent, Elizabeth Otis), "It is a mean, nasty book and if I could make it nastier I would." In the ending, after the Joad family has fallen apart and the pregnant daughter Rose of Sharon delivers a stillborn baby, she breast-feeds a starving man. When his editor suggested he changed the ending, Steinbeck was furious. He said: "I am sorry but I cannot change that ending. It is casual — there is no fruity climax, it is not more important than any other part of the book — if there is a symbol, it is a survival symbol not a love symbol, it must be an accident, it must be a stranger, and it must be quick. To build this stranger into the structure of the book would be to warp the whole meaning of the book. The fact that the Joads don't know him, don't care about him, have no ties to him — that is the emphasis. The giving of the breast has no more sentiment than the giving of a piece of bread. <...> You know that I have never been touchy about changes, but I have too many thousands of hours on this book, every incident has been too carefully chosen and its weight judged and fitted. The balance is there. One other thing — I am not writing a satisfying story. I've done my damndest to rip a reader's nerves to rags, I don't want him satisfied."

http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/#show%20more%20content

[xchrom]

1. recommend

[hedgehog]

2. The ending always bothered me. It would seem more likely that

Rose of Sharon would express her milk in to a cup for the man. Maybe that never occurred to Steinbeck, or maybe he was thinking of a tradition of wet nursing.

[pokerfan]

4. Not being equipped to produce milk myself

how well would that work without a breast pump? Perhaps suckling the stranger was just easier. It's certainly an image that people won't soon forget and one that people who are only familiar with the film version aren't familiar with.

[mimitabby]

7. you don't need a breast pump to express milk

[pokerfan]

10. I guess my point is which is easier?

Hand expressing or directly nursing? :shrug:

[Cairycat]

16. It takes time to develop the knack of hand expressing milk

Steinbeck's ending is more realistic and better dramatically for the story.

that said, it can be done - my daughter received only hand-expressed milk, no formula during the day while I was employed full-time.

[Luminous Animal]

13. No you don't but, unless one's breast is full to bursting, it ain't easy.

[MorningGlow]

5. Hardly the same emotional impact, wouldn't you say?

The way it's written, you never, ever forget the scene.

[hedgehog]

6. Given how realistic the rest of the novel is ( Remember how the kids used

all the toilet paper at the one camp because they'd gorged on peaches?), this scene seemed a little contrived. It's possible that it refers back to a form of folk medicine.

[MorningGlow]

8. Drama, pure and simple

Dramatic impact, poetic symbolism (mother of the world). Also the physical action of Rose of Sharon cradling the dying man is intended to recreate the positions of Mary and Jesus in the Pieta.

IMO it fits--there's enough symbolism in the whole novel that it doesn't seem too out of place. (It's less "solely realistic devoid of symbolism", let's say, than it appears on first glance.)

[raccoon]

64. +1000. nt

[me b zola]

9. Humanity

...and the lack there of. I think the ending is perfect.

[juxtaposed]

19. i agree, when there is nothing else

[Hissyspit]

20. It's Biblical symbolism, as well.

[Kablooie]

35. It was written to make a shocking impact and it did.

[rhett o rick]

38. Giving him milk from a cup would be similar to giving him bread. Steinbeck was going for

symbolism. But it will take someone smarter than me to figure it out.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

39. Logic tells me that; but when I condiser her sense of loss...

...and that primal call to nurture, and not just feed, that still exists even when the baby is deceased, I think it's not so far-fetched.

[rasputin1952]

55. I always understood it as the passing on of life and of doing good...

even in the midst of great tragedy, people will come together for the survival of those even more devastated than themselves. It is the very essence of the thought of loss of life, yet being able to preserve a life.

The Grapes of Wrath was written to express one of the hardest times this nation has ever known. Many had no comprehension of the complete destruction that so many felt and went through. The tiny parts of th movie, and often the most poignant, were simplest...purchasing bread in a store, counting out coins. knowing that each penny was a step to life, while the kids looked at the candy...when I see that, my heart gets torn out an tossed on the floor. Then, suddenly, when all seems so bad, a simple act of kindness when kindness was so rare.; an moment of hope and joy, when hope was scarce, and joy, non-existent.

Steinbeck did such a magnificent job, how he did not go mad writing that is beyond me; the depths he reached to, just so that others could come to some understanding is beyond what most mortals can attain.

[merbex]

58. +1000000000000000 n/t

[WinkyDink]

60. You are mistaking a writer for a clinician.

[raccoon]

63. I know for me, I never heard of expressing milk until maybe 30 years ago.

Maybe Steinbeck didn't know about that either?

It may seem obvious now, but I don't think it would've then.

[av8rdave]

68. I think it was important to the story to take place exactly as it did

As Steinbeck himself said, he was portraying a survival situation, where pleasantries and etiquette do not exist. Even when I first read it as a hormonally charged, oversexed teen, I did not see it as a sexual, risqué or even "dirty" scene. To me, it was simple human decency surviving even in the very worst of circumstances. It was one small shred of goodness where there was otherwise none.

I look at it now with as much sadness as ever. Steinbeck shows us today the Republican utopia as far as the poor are concerned.

[xxqqqzme]

3. It's passion

Damn, that kicks ass.

[hedgehog]

88. I came across this by accident and thought it might have some relevence -

http://www.mothernurtureky.com/blog/?p=217

[P. Galore]

11. Here's what Eleanor Roosevelt thought about the book

http://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/myday/displaydoc.cfm?_y=1939&_f=md055304

...
Now I must tell you that I have just finished a book which is an unforgetable experience in reading. "The Grapes of Wrath" by John Steinbeck, both repels and attracts you. The horrors of the picture, so well drawn, make you dread sometimes to begin the next chapter, and yet you cannot lay the book down or even skip a page. Somewhere I saw the criticism that this book was anti-religious, but somehow I cannot imagine thinking of "Ma" without, at the same time, thinking of the love "that passeth all understanding."

The book is coarse in spots, but life is coarse in spots, and story is very beautiful in spots just as life is. We do not dwell upon man's lower nature any more than we have to in life, but we know it exists and we pass over it charitably and are surprised how much there is of fineness that comes out of the baser clay. Even from life's sorrows some good must come. What could be a better illustration than the closing chapter of this book?

ME AGAIN:
Her view of the movie:

http://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/myday/displaydoc.cfm?_y=1940&_f=md055510

GOLDEN BEACH, Fla., Thursday—Yesterday evening we went to see the picture:—"Grapes of Wrath." I think it is well done, but I wonder if it will convey to many people the reality of what they are seeing. People laughed near us at some of the broad remarks in the dialogue. I did not feel the tragedy gripped the audience. They did not seem really to know what this story actually meant.

There are some lines that are very well brought out, as for instance, when Mrs. Joad first sees "Tommy" again, after he is back from prison and asks him if he has been hurt so much that he is just "mean-mad." I have felt people were "mean-mad" at times and wondered if life were not treating them so harshly that they were unable to retain any of the qualities which make people lovable and that make life worth living. At the end of the picture the thing which struck me especially was Ma Joad's remark: "Rich people die and their children are no good, but nothing downs us. We are just hardened by misfortune and so we go on. We, the people, live." This is not an exact quotation, but those of you who have seen the picture will remember the idea.

I shall not forget it, for there is something in that beating down of fate which does harden the fibre of a human being. When life is too easy for us, we must beware or we may not be ready to meet the blows which sooner or later come to everyone, rich or poor.

[patrice]

26. Wow! - Thanks VERY much for this! nt

[P. Galore]

33. You're very welcome, dear, as She would say. nt

[patrice]

41. I don't really know much about her. These quotes show that though she had a heart for

the people, she was also an intellectual. You can see that in the level of her response to what is a difficult piece of literature.

[defendandprotect]

42. Love Eleanor Roosevelt -- !! Were future audiences not "gripped" by the tragedy, however?

I've never read the book -- and didn't they change the ending? Not sure now.

But hasn't the public come to understand FROM THE FILM MAINLY that the Joad's

are every man/woman? And their fate, possibly ours?

This is one of the books I've always intended to read -- like many others --

fiction that has been changed for the screen. 10 North Fredriok Street --

Was sadly amused at the Grace Metalious anniversary a few years ago -- PEYTON PLACE!!

And the various important truths in that book which were changed!! Tragic.

And, guess what -- our library had never had a copy of Peyton Place before --

so they picked one up for the anniversary -- and IT WAS AN ABRIDGED COPY!!!

Sad -- so sad -- !!


Would just comment on Tom's imprisonment -- injustice is always with us --

and young men too often locked up to benefit prison systems!

[HughBeaumont]

49. Your everyman/woman doesn't run and never has ran the country. That's the problem.

Empathy, love for mankind and understanding don't exist to people like Larry Ellison, The Waltons or The Kochs. All that matters to people like that is accumulation; the greater, the better. They're so far removed from what the "useless eaters" are going through, it simply cannot be conceived they'll do whatever it takes to make this country better.

[defendandprotect]

79. My point was about the value of the movie to audiences ....

presume you read ER's comments -- her review of the movie?

Again, my comments were strictly about the movie --



Re your comments however ...


Your everyman/woman doesn't run and never has ran the country. That's the problem.

Empathy, love for mankind and understanding don't exist to people like Larry Ellison, The Waltons or The Kochs. All that matters to people like that is accumulation; the greater, the better. They're so far removed from what the "useless eaters" are going through, it simply cannot be conceived they'll do whatever it takes to make this country better.

Well understand that --

and the fact that the rightwing only rises via political violence -- and we've had more

than 50 years of that -- and probably 50 years of stolen elections, as well.




The Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414


If you knew this, why didn't you tell us?

If you didn't know -- pass it along -- !!

:)

[newspeak]

82. remember when Little Boot's english professor was interviewed?

Didn't he say that they were going to view "The Grapes of Wrath" and Little Boots apparently commented why did they have to watch a commie film? I remember reading that and thinking that * definitely was born with a sliver spoon in his mouth and totally apathetic.

[HughBeaumont]

83. And more . . .

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/09/16/tsurumi/

"I don't remember all the students in detail unless I'm prompted by something," Tsurumi said in a telephone interview Wednesday. "But I always remember two types of students. One is the very excellent student, the type as a professor you feel honored to be working with. Someone with strong social values, compassion and intellect -- the very rare person you never forget. And then you remember students like George Bush, those who are totally the opposite."

(snip)

In 1973, as the oil and energy crisis raged, Tsurumi led a discussion on whether government should assist retirees and other people on fixed incomes with heating costs. Bush, he recalled, "made this ridiculous statement and when I asked him to explain, he said, 'The government doesn't have to help poor people -- because they are lazy.' I said, 'Well, could you explain that assumption?' Not only could he not explain it, he started backtracking on it, saying, 'No, I didn't say that.'"

[malaise]

53. The Grapes of Wrath remains one of the most important books

ever written in America. It should be required reading for all schoolchildren.

[rasputin1952]

54. Brilliant!

:hug:

[loudsue]

65. Eleanor writes as if there was still education going on in our society back then.

Oh wait! There WAS education back then! It was in the time BEFORE children were taught from tests.

What a brilliant woman Eleanor was.

[eleny]

12. My favorite quote from one of my favorite books...

" Why, Tom - us people will go on livin' when all them people is gone. Why, Tom, we're the people that live. They ain't gonna wipe us out. Why, we're the people - we go on."

[Lifelong Protester]

15. Mine too.

n/t

[eleny]

17. _

:fistbump:

[lunatica]

14. It sure ripped my nerves to rags. I literally threw the book across the room

The problem with the ending is not the stranger getting his life saved. It's that the characters you've grown to love are drowned and dead and the family who has battled so hard has just lost the fight of their lives after losing every inch of the way along the path to it. You care. And that hurts.

Steinbeck wanted it to hurt and it did.

[Hissyspit]

21. I find it so ridiculous that that would be controversial.

(That someone would want to write it that way and people would not want it to be written that way, not that people would have a reaction like yours to it.)

I mean it is called the Grapes of WRATH.

[Sonoman]

23. Like a great song.

If it doesn't make you soar, laugh, cry, wail or throw it across the room, the time spent composing was wasted.

Sonoman

[Kurovski]

18. Flour and bacon drippings.

I made some to see what it was like when I read the book a second time after high school.

Like most everything else, it was pretty awful.

One of the greatest novels ever.

[deaniac21]

34. There is nothing in this world that bacon can't fix.

[pokerfan]

45. sounds like roux

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roux

[dixiegrrrrl]

85. Lots of salt and pepper added to it makes it palatable.

I had an aunt who could make the best "drippin'" gravy I have ever tasted. Lots of drippings, lots of flour, but she did have condensed milk and water. It has a unique flavor that one never forgets. It was served over biscuits.
Unfortunately, it was served twice a day, when they were very poor. Biscuits and sometimes fried potatoes.
That was it.
The drippings were in a can by the stove, that you collected, very carefully, every time you cooked ham or bacon, the can was carefully protected, it served for the gravy in good times and in bad times.
My grandma had a can, my mother had a can, for years I kept the same dripping can when I cooked.

[Sonoman]

22. I read that book when I was 10 or 11 years of age.

I read it very slowly over the course of a Texas Summer.

It is still the only work of Steinbeck I have read.

Sonoman

[YellowRubberDuckie]

24. That sounds HORRIBLE.

I need to see how much it costs on Kindle....

[Boudica the Lyoness]

25. I have never read his books.

I can't believe it! What one shall I start with? I want to read them all.

[Maine-i-acs]

29. "The Pearl"

would be a good warm-up to Grapes of Wrath.

[kentauros]

76. Or a great way to never read any of his works again.

I hated The Pearl. Not because it was badly written. Just the whole story. I have never read anything else by Steinbeck and I don't feel like I'm missing out.

[northoftheborder]

30. "Travels With Charlie" is good. it has humor, and short.

the one about the cannery in San Francisco (I think) "Cannery Row", is good. I've kind of forgotten it. But it was good. I knew his 2nd (or third?) wife's sister. They were both from Texas. (the sisters)

[cameozalaznick]

32. Well, you might work up to this one.

It really is his masterpiece. Start with something a little lighter like "Tortilla Flats" or "Cannery Row." Then graduate to "East of Eden" and "Winter of our Discontent." "The Moon is Down" is a really good short read. Gripping.

IMO, Steinbeck is the greatest American author. You're so lucky to have all that reading ahead of you.

Oh, and BTW, don't be surprised if you find yourself unable to eat while reading "Grapes of Wrath."

[pokerfan]

36. Cannery Row, Grapes of Wrath, Of Mice and Men, The Pearl

Order doesn't really matter.

[MessiahRp]

47. The Red Pony was my first.

Introduced to Steinbeck in 7th Grade and went on to read Of Mice and Men, Cannery Row, Tortilla Flat and Grapes in the course of a year. Not too many authors have drawn me in like that since then.

[kaffy4x4]

48. You Forgot East of Eden

[pokerfan]

80. That I did

I guess I didn't have room for all of them in the subject line. :)

[WinkyDink]

61. PLEASE begin with "Of Mice and Men."

The dignity of the ranch-hands, the pathos of "Curly's wife," the poignance of the "brotherhood" of George and Lennie, and the bleakness of their lives....

I'll tell ya: The utter humbleness and generosity of spirit of Lennie's offering George his non-existent ketchup for their canned beans? THIS is what I say to myself, to remind me, to humble me. Canned beans, and their luxury would be some ketchup.

I taught this novel(la) to well-off suburban kids because. Just because.

[onpatrol98]

78. How did they take it?

How did they respond to it? I think Literature would be an awesome subject to teach.

[WinkyDink]

84. Let's just say they learned the lesson for class. But one now is in DC working for Republicans.

Teaching the literature was fine and dandy; it was grading the tests and papers that consumed my time!

[Hestia]

67. "East of Eden" - wonderful book

[sulphurdunn]

75. And a pretty good movie too.

[nolabear]

27. Every American today should read this book, so that it does not ever again become reality.

And I will read it again too. Thank you for reminding me to.

Stunning, fearless writing.

[patrice]

28. These are some of the reasons I think The Road is one of the best books.

Though I've read other Steinbeck, I've never read Grapes of Wrath. I shall do so.

[rasputin1952]

62. Please do...

I am now 59, I read it when I was 13...46 years later, the impact is there. Just reading this thread brought back so many memories of how I felt when I would read a line, have to lay the book down and think about it for a few minutes, trying to "be" a part of the scene. I walked around in a daze for a couple of days, the impact on me was so striking.

On the other hand, while the movie is good, and many poignant parts jab right to the heart, the book draws you in, it made me feel as if I were there, feeling the pain, the hunger, the loss, the very few moments of hope, and the very scarce joy that cropped up perhaps twice. I lent out my copy many years ago, when I ran into the lendee about two years later, she said she was sorry, but she lent it to someone, and then they lent it to someone. It was one of the few times that even though I had "lost" a book, I felt no remorse, because I knew others were being drawn in as well...and that was the purpose, the thread that would draw hearts and souls together. I hope 100 people read my copy, and I hope 100 more will.

[Taverner]

31. Its too bad that the "Okies" that were so sympathetically portrayed...

...turned on the very hands that tried to help them during this time

Is it any wonder no one feels sorry for poor, white people?

[hedgehog]

74. I was just wondering how many of the grandchildren from The Grapes

of Wrath are members of the Tea Party....People determinedly forget the bad times as fast as possible.

[Blue_Tires]

37. ttt

[themadstork]

40. Steinbeck was a beast.

And from an entirely different age, in terms of American letters. Very few living writers with such integrity.

[Jack Rabbit]

43. I recommend the book

So does my ex-wife, who immigrated to this country and learned from the book much about what makes America great and what makes it trying.

[Zorra]

44. My favorite book of all time. The Great American Novel. nt

[kaffy4x4]

46. I recommend this book often

to friends and family who want a true picture of what it takes to survive a truly serious depression. I've read it several times and each time get a gut punch. I had a very hard time reading as a kid until a 7th grade teacher recommended and checked out of the library a book for each kid to read and report on. His choice for me was Steinbeck "Red Pony". I was hooked on Steinbeck from that moment on and read everyone of his books.

[pengillian101]

50. K&R (n/t)

[Enthusiast]

51. We read it. It was wonderful.

It was wonderful but sad.

If people don't wake up soon we could find our way back there.

[Solly Mack]

52. K&R

[rasputin1952]

56. One of the most powerful books ever written...

when I first read it, I had to put it down from time to time, just to take in the emotional impact. It was one of those rare works that grips the soul and wrenches it's mooring, jarring us into a reality we never really realize how close we are to what the Joads and others went through.

Everyone I knew, when I was growing up, walked around in bit of a daze for a while after reading it, the impact was so intense, (this was in the early 60s). I know it changed my view of humanity in general, and eventually established in me a very determined liberal bent to help to make at least my little corner of the world just a little better, if even for just a short time.

[era veteran]

57. This book changed me

I read everything he wrote after reading it.

[lonestarnot]

59. Should be mandatory reading on the decks of yachters.

[KittyWampus]

77. Like Miller's "The Crucible", even if certain people did read it, the meaning would be lost on them.

[raccoon]

66. K&R. nt

[CrownPrinceBandar]

69. I admit I've only seen John Ford's adaptation........

But Casy's death hit me the hardest. He was so forlorn when he first met up with Tom about losing his faith only to give his life to save the Joad family.

Don't know if I could do the novel, the movie was rough enough. Masterpiece of a story, though.

[pokerfan]

81. Jim Casy = J.C. = Jesus Christ

Always liked Casy's prayer over Grampa's body. I can't remember how much of it made it into the movie.

"This here ol' man jus' lived a life an' jus' died out of it. I don't know whether he was good or bad, but that don't matter much. He was alive, an' that's what matters. An' now he's dead, an' that don't matter. Heard a fella tell a poem one time, an' he says, 'All that lives is holy.' Got to thinkin', an' purty soon it means more than the words says. An' I wouldn' pray for a ol' fella that's dead. He's awright. He got a job to do, but it's all laid out for 'im an' there's on'y one way to do it. But us, we got a job to do, an' they's a thousan' ways, an' we don' know which one to take. An' if I was to pray, it'd be for the folks that don' know which way to turn. Grampa here, he got the easy straight. An' now cover 'im up and let 'im get to his work."

[P. Galore]

86. Steinbeck kinda liked the folks he met in Hollywood, such as Spencer Tracy,

who a crazed genius also.

[reformist2]

70. "Rich fellas come up an' they die, an' their kids ain't no good an' they die out. "

[zanana1]

71. The ending is the most human part of the book.

In all the books that I've read in my 59 years, the end of The Grapes of Wrath is the most human piece of literature I've ever read.

[Lindsey]

73. I got my B.A. Degree when I was 41. I gravitated toward film &

literature classes. The Grapes of Wrath was required reading in three of my classes over a five year period. An assignment in one class was to compare and contrast the film w/the book. IMO, The Grapes of Wrath is one of the best written books every written on too many levels that I can get get in to.

[BEZERKO]

72. Great book

great movie with Henry Fonda.

[pengillian101]

87. "great movie with Henry Fonda"

My all-time favorite movie.